Christians..................... and their worldly wealth.

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You just told now though and lost all your reward...

Indeed. Educating others by leading by example is worth not getting the gold star in heaven for it, isn't it? Sometimes sacrifices have to be made. You thought I would be amazed at your wisdom, but I am not a hypocrite: I don't expect to be rewarded for such things at all. However, to keep compassion such a secret that you never tell anyone who ought to learn what it is, just to get a reward in heaven, should be punished, as the "long-term" demands that morals are taught, best by example, which means you can't keep it secret.

How does that change your perspective?

The biblical authors are like televangelists? "Poor people, give me all your money, and I'll make you super duper rich. You'll be swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck. Believe it!"

Wealth is only useful when used. It is only compatible with God's commands when used for the benefit of all.

Indeed. Hoarding is the problem. The parable of the talents tells us we must invest to get a return.

Where are you getting Jesus was unemployed? Just because the Bible doesn’t mention a job doesn’t mean he didn’t have one.

Unlike bodily processes, employment is optional, yes?

 

[Kemosloby]

Indeed. Educating others by leading by example is worth not getting the gold star in heaven for it, isn't it? Sometimes sacrifices have to be made. You thought I would be amazed at your wisdom, but I am not a hypocrite: I don't expect to be rewarded for such things at all. However, to keep compassion such a secret that you never tell anyone who ought to learn what it is, just to get a reward in heaven, should be punished, as the "long-term" demands that morals are taught, best by example, which means you can't keep it secret.

The biblical authors are like televangelists? "Poor people, give me all your money, and I'll make you super duper rich. You'll be swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck. Believe it!"


Indeed. Hoarding is the problem. The parable of the talents tells us we must invest to get a return.


Unlike bodily processes, employment is optional, yes?

Is God really telling us how great our morals are in the bible? No, quite the opposite. God is trying to show us we are corrupted with sin, our morals suck. No matter how hard we try we are only so- so in morality. "none are good, no not one"

 

[ensnaturae]

Why own even basic supplies, if you have faith that God will provide?

Isn't *any* savings or stockpiling just a guard against worry that you won't have enough in future?

I don't ever think about "G" od.. In such a way. There are numerous books and sources of opinions on a topic that no one has more information than I have, for myself. A good metaphor for human life is jesus, a very old story, but one that survives in all its forms ...as a reference for the question "who am I", what am I doing here. ? Etc. Like him, I'm a child of the strength and creative force of the universe..like him, my own strength comes chiefly from that source.... The entire structure of the worlds religions, likewise offer metaphors, not " rules" for living., or carefully defined paths to take. Any that claim to be uniquely god designed, usually offer heavy punishments and promises to keep the rules. "Worrying" about anything, generally speaking, achieves nothing. Taking care of ones dependents and ones own well being, has no aspect of "worry"...either in doing it or in concern for not doing it.

 

[ensnaturae]

Thankyou for your post.
Yes, Jesus didn't writre anything, but then, he was a Galilean handworker.... and Galilean peasants used oral-tradition to remember important events etc.
Yes, my Granny (a 'we're all good Christians' -type) said that her family had always had a rule, to judge a person by what shoes they were wearing.

A recent debate, out there on the internet, finally caused a penny to drop for me, as I finally got fed up with how some Christians manipulate the 'infallible word of the Lord' into various meanings which massage their righteousness more effectively. Some issues are held rigidly to chapter, verse, stop and comma ...... the unerring word of God. Others are 'adjusted', and I have had tio listen to Christians 'teaching me' about 'what Jesus really meant'.

I will be collecting such junk, trawled from the rigid and flexible, mixing it into a kind of semantic porridge, and feeding it back to the ones who (I think) deserve it.

Of course, many Christians are truly beautiful people, it's the ones who ride Christianity with their wicked hearts that p--s me off!

I live in a tiny home with my wife. Happiness! We are fortunate to be able to do what we llike now, and so we don't give a hoot about the social hypocrisies of our society. I expect that I do have some naughty hypocrisies left iover from a lifetime of stupidity, but when I perceive the little s-ds I do everything possible to kick 'em out of my heart and soul.

We understand each other, Mr Badger! I think you and your wife must know my delight in frugal living! Nothing whatever to do with self torture, or a deliberate "hair shirt, crawling backwards on my knees" ...way of living..but pure delight in *the greatest simplicity*... Was about to take my dog for her walk...with a polybag and scissors...to collect some wild weeds for one of my best easy noshes...that's thickish pancakes flavoured with any wild plants on offer..very best...come a bit later...chuck in handfuls of blackberries, or wild cherries..apples from my own trees...etc..but right now...there are dandelions, and wild chives? Onion flavour! I have never in my life been so happy...there are always, terrible possibilities, of course, but when precious memories and moments are so easy to create and keep...its all bearable, even the worst.. I'm glad to be able to take part in being a social human, some of the time...but no one can ever gain possession of my soul!! Whatever it is! Yes..I understand your despair with the word merchants! I have relatives whose lives are ruled by this or that "interpretation" of bible bits... I remember when I was a child...being desperately sad for all the kiddos around the world... I thought must go to hell...because they taught me if you don't join the church...that's where you go.
But even at 5 yes old...it seemed Cruel and senseless. I was really glad that my mother said "god loves everyone".. And trashed all the threats of hell in a moment! Yes of course, almost no one could read in Jesus day, but how long...how many centuries is it...that more than a few people could read anyway!? And those that could read..was the bible available to them?! Of course not...it was in Latin...so all meaning, interpretation...was carried out by such a very few people..and they were all men, I think...
I dont think Jesus wanted anything to be written...but he didn't mind!! Its not the story ...that makes the difference I suppose...its the *spirit*...in the story...or, not on any story at all... The most moving and world shaking part of it, is that experience, knowing, understanding, seeing truth and evidence... In lives. Like yours, your wife's and hopefully mine, too! Loving and caring, because we know that is so real. You can feel it, hear it, see it..the invisible, made visible! I don't care at all, about the heaven and hell stuff. That's material, used to persuade people to pay attentioñ, or be punished!

 

[oldbadger]

We understand each other, Mr Badger! I think you and your wife must know my delight in frugal living! Nothing whatever to do with self torture, or a deliberate "hair shirt, crawling backwards on my knees" ...way of living..but pure delight in *the greatest simplicity*... Was about to take my dog for her walk...with a polybag and scissors...to collect some wild weeds for one of my best easy noshes...that's thickish pancakes flavoured with any wild plants on offer..very best...come a bit later...chuck in handfuls of blackberries, or wild cherries..apples from my own trees...etc..but right now...there are dandelions, and wild chives? Onion flavour!

Great! Absolutely great! I like your description of your free and natural collection of foods, spices and fruits.
I live near Whitstable in England, and the big 'thing' around here is all about Whitstable oysters. Londoners come here and have a dozen oysters and pay a lot of money for that proud boast, but there is 'free-foreshore' off this coast where anybody can seek out oysters and in over 37 years I have never, ever, seen a single person (apart from myself) collecting oysters to cook for a meal. (Cooked oysters are tastier and safer). It's all BS when wealth needs to be seen eating or drinking that which they don't really like!

I have never in my life been so happy...there are always, terrible possibilities, of course, but when precious memories and moments are so easy to create and keep...its all bearable, even the worst.. I'm glad to be able to take part in being a social human, some of the time...but no one can ever gain possession of my soul!!

Well spoken! (written!).......... I know about those terrible possibilities as well. My wife nearly died in 2014..... was saved by a very clever medical team. So I know that bad things will happen but I am determined that when my time comes I will give thanks to Fate and the Gods for the joys that were mine, and to thank those who made me so happy.

Yes..I understand your despair with the word merchants! I have relatives whose lives are ruled by this or that "interpretation" of bible bits... I remember when I was a child...being desperately sad for all the kiddos around the world... I thought must go to hell...because they taught me if you don't join the church...that's where you go.
But even at 5 yes old...it seemed Cruel and senseless. I was really glad that my mother said "god loves everyone".. And trashed all the threats of hell in a moment!

Good on your Mother. Yes. This world is so full of hypocrisy as religious people insist upon their pious decency whilst clutching to their mammon. It's a suitable punishment for them to have to worry about it all.

Yes of course, almost no one could read in Jesus day, but how long...how many centuries is it...that more than a few people could read anyway!? And those that could read..was the bible available to them?! Of course not...it was in Latin...so all meaning, interpretation...was carried out by such a very few people..and they were all men, I think...

Ah...... to question a Church'es interpretation of the bible often meant a torturous death. Even when translated into English it was very dangerous to actually read it and ask questions. For instance, I don't know how Catherine Parr survived the bishops who were intent upon her execution; fortunately for her King Henry VIII must have fancied her just enough!

I dont think Jesus wanted anything to be written...but he didn't mind!! Its not the story ...that makes the difference I suppose...its the *spirit*...in the story...or, not on any story at all... The most moving and world shaking part of it, is that experience, knowing, understanding, seeing truth and evidence... In lives. Like yours, your wife's and hopefully mine, too! Loving and caring, because we know that is so real. You can feel it, hear it, see it..the invisible, made visible! I don't care at all, about the heaven and hell stuff. That's material, used to persuade people to pay attentioñ, or be punished!

Fair enough. Some evangelists once told me that Heaven was a place where the faithfull would walk in beautiful meadows etc surrounded by beautiful believers loving each other and not killing anything anymore.... just loving everything. I'm sure it would have been good for them, but I just couldn't get a feeling out of my head that if that went on forever...... and ever...... it would be hellish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Worrying" about anything, generally speaking, achieves nothing. Taking care of ones dependents and ones own well being, has no aspect of "worry"...either in doing it or in concern for not doing it.

If God is taking care of everything, why do you need to take care of your dependents?

The Gospel passage just doesn't speak against worry; it also speaks agains asking "what shall we eat?" What's motivating you to provide for yourself and others that doesn't involve trying to come up with an answer to this question?

 

[ensnaturae]

Penguin?...I Have not the slightest interest in measuring up my life according to book quotes. The bible was written by a number of people... most of it, long after Jesus death...he certainly wrote not a word of it himself...As far as I know, all the writers were men, and not one of them appears to me to have understood the living spirit/truth of the "son of god", in my experience, and this, the truth of it.. has nothing whatever to do with following any book of rules, at all. Jesus was none of the horrible things offered by different religions. No, he was definitely not that worst of all horrible ideas, a 'blood sacrifice', for a god who sought payment or retribution. That he is so much written about, is no surprise. He is a kind of mystery, that is resolved ..in life itself. He is 'life"... He is 'the way'..all the clichés, that were ever spoken, he is. But none of it is contained, boxed, inside the book written by men long after he died. All the books in the world, are never as good as just a tiny glimpse of that living, loving " soul". The point is....., he is 'you' and,... he is 'me' too. He knew he would die, but he would not leave his beloved followers, his friends, to face the horrible darkness alone. He knew how to defeat every darkest aspect of life on earth. It really is not so hard, because of Love. For those who want to insist...he never lived...it really doesn't matter! He lives as love, in you. He is real, in you. That invincible spirit, in love, is in you.
If all he is, is the 'myth', he is a myth then, from the mind of a man who knew the truth.

 

[roger1440]

Unlike bodily processes, employment is optional, yes?

For most adults then and now employment isn’t an option. It is a necessity. We need a means to acquire food, shelter and clothing. If these things were miraculously provided to Jesus you would think the authors of the Gospels would have mentioned it. There is no indication Jesus was born into money. It is more plausible he worked like anyone else did. It wouldn’t have been necessary to mention what he did for a living because it wouldn’t have contributed to the message of the Gospels. What difference would it have made if he was a carpenter, mason or shoveled camel dung at the local stable? Jesus’s ministry was somewhere between one to three years according to the Gospels. It would only take about two and a half hours to read all the dialog of Jesus in the Gospels. Obviously much is left out. Your garden variety Christian pastor can ramble on more than that on any given Sunday morning. I find it doubtful Jesus was some sort of ancient Jewish version of Davy Crockett. What’s next put a coon skin cap on him?

 

[ensnaturae]

Penguin?...I Have not the slightest interest in measuring up my life according to book quotes. The bible was written by a number of people... most of it, long after Jesus death...he certainly wrote not a word of it himself...As far as I know, all the writers were men, and not one of them appears to me to have understood the living spirit/truth of the "son of god", in my experience, and this, the truth of it.. has nothing whatever to do with following any book of rules, at all. Jesus was none of the horrible things offered by different religions. No, he was definitely not that worst of all horrible ideas, a 'blood sacrifice', for a god who sought payment or retribution. That he is so much written about, is no surprise. He is a kind of mystery, that is resolved ..in life itself. He is 'life"... He is 'the way'..all the clichés, that were ever spoken, he is. But none of it is contained, boxed, inside the book written by men long after he died. All the books in the world, are never as good as just a tiny glimpse of that living, loving " soul". The point is....., he is 'you' and,... he is 'me' too. He knew he would die, but he would not leave his beloved followers, his friends, to face the horrible darkness alone. He knew how to defeat every darkest aspect of life on earth. It really is not so hard, because of Love. For those who want to insist...he never lived...it really doesn't matter! He lives as love, in you. He is real, in you. That invincible spirit, in love, is in you.
If all he is, is the 'myth', he is a myth then, from the mind of a man who knew the truth.

Sorrreeeeee folks,..by the way.!!
..My references to 'the bible' in this message should have said..the *New Testament* (most essential part) of the bible. It makes not much difference, I do not recommend any book, no matter what miraculous claims are made on its behalf... to be used as a book of life rules. There is much too much that holds to ancient tribal and often very cruel customs, that have no place in any kind or caring individual or community.

 

[MJFlores]

I need Christians, especially those who believe that the bible is the unerring, infallible, divine word of God, to read the verses below, and then to confirm that they live a life free from Mammon, High Status, Wealth and other Riches. If not....... Why not?

PS: Please excuse the OP for being a fat, comfy pagan Deist! Hell! I've even got a bicycle!

Matthew 19:23 New International Version (NIV)

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.

That is the truth - one who is rich have many things in mind to be concerned about - his balance sheet, his income statement and his cash flow statement - is someone stealing from his business etc.

Ecclesiastes 5:12 Good News Translation (GNT)

Workers may or may not have enough to eat, but at least they can get a good night's sleep. The rich, however, have so much that they stay awake worrying.

How can the rich serve God? Could he attend worship services twice a week? Could he have time for bible studies? Could he attend church activities? I think he would not have time for that, would he? He has billions of dollars to worry about like:

• #1 Bill Gates $75 B.
• #2 Amancio Ortega $67 B.
• #3 Warren Buffett $60.8 B.
• #4 Carlos Slim Helu $50 B.
• #5 Jeff Bezos $45.2 B.

Who then God chooses?

James 2:5 New International Version (NIV)

Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Money - fiat money - paper money - we need this to buy stuff, things that we need. Some would kill for a bundle of those. Many would prioritize that and keep the knowledge of God in the trunk. But for us in the Church of Christ, we see money as "Its there." but we won't die for it and if our employers would ask us to work overtime than attend worship services - we adjust our work schedules and if not leave the job.

Matthew 19:29 New International Version (NIV)

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

 

[savagewind]

@MJFlores I can see by your posts that you are trusting in your own righteousness. Or, maybe, more accurately, the righteousness of your own church.

Are you so sure that Jesus' warning couldn't also mean that a man who feels rich in his own righteousness won't see the Kingdom of Heaven?

Mammon; wealth regarded as an evil influence or false object of worship and devotion

None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve God and mammon Matthew 6:24

Compare 1 Timothy 6:18 and Romans 10:12.

God has said that you won't understand.

The reason?

You are serving your own opinion, not God's.

God says I might try to help you, but it won't work.

Romans 10:12 is saying that The Lord is "rich". How do you believe the Lord is rich?
Can people believe they are rich like the Lord is rich?

Might Jesus be warning you about that kind of rich?

God says all the "believers" are going to say, "no!". (Those " around believers are mine)

 

[MJFlores]

@MJFlores I can see by your posts that you are trusting in your own righteousness. Or, maybe, more accurately, the righteousness of your own church.

Are you so sure that Jesus' warning couldn't also mean that a man who feels rich in his own righteousness won't see the Kingdom of Heaven?

Mammon; wealth regarded as an evil influence or false object of worship and devotion

None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve God and mammon Matthew 6:24

Compare 1 Timothy 6:18 and Romans 10:12.

God has said that you won't understand.

The reason?

You are serving your own opinion, not God's.

God says I might try to help you, but it won't work.

Romans 10:12 is saying that The Lord is "rich". How do you believe the Lord is rich?
Can people believe they are rich like the Lord is rich?

Might Jesus be warning you about that kind of rich?

God says all the "believers" are going to say, "no!". (Those " around believers are mine)

I'm totally lost - What is your main question?
The Lord is rich - He owns everything.
I am not rich - maybe average
Not a millionaire or billionaire - those people are rich, aren't they?
Maybe I am a thousanaire also a debonair
I don't serve money. I am contented with what I have.
And what I have is because of my prayers to God
That he should not make me rich or too poor for me to forget him.

 

[oldbadger]

@MJFlores .................................

Are you so sure that Jesus' warning couldn't also mean that a man who feels rich in his own righteousness won't see the Kingdom of Heaven? ......................................

Ah, Savage...!
If self-righteousness was wealth some folks would be billionaires!

 

[savagewind]

So, God was right. Right? LOL

 

[MJFlores]

So, God was right. Right? LOL

What is riches in the world?

Mark 8:36 New International Version (NIV)
What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?

They maybe billionaires maybe own a large chunk of all businesses in the world but in the end they are so dead.

1 John 2:15 New International Version (NIV)
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

What is the proper way of using what we have?