Christians are polytheists?

[firedragon]

What I quoted is the original passage, not the interpolated version.

Nope. This is exactly the interpolation.

 

[Sundance]

Josephus does not mention the crucifixion of Jesus while it is well known that the miracle working Jesus in Josephus were forgeries. Annals does not say Jesus was crucified but that he was given the punishment severe, and Mara bar Serapion’s letter does not say Jesus, Christ, or that he was crucified.

It is probable that Jesus was crucified based on the Roman history.

Below is the passage from the Annals of Tacitus (15.44). Also, such a severe punishment is most likely to have been crucifixion.

“But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.”

 

[Sundance]

Nope. This is exactly the interpolation.

Wrong. This below, in bold, are the interpolated portions of the passage:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).”

 

[firedragon]

Below is the passage from the Annals of Tacitus (15.44). Also, such a severe punishment is most likely to have been crucifixion.

“But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.”

Thats why I said "probably" or "probable", though it doesnt say crucifixion.

 

[Sundance]

Thats why I said "probably" or "probable", though it doesnt say crucifixion.

Dude, it doesn’t take a university-level historian to figure out what form of a punishment is being referred to. The passage would only be referring to crucifixion, the most severe form of execution practiced in Ancient Rome.

 

[firedragon]

Wrong. This below, in bold, are the interpolated portions of the passage:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).”

That is a facade assumption not based on text but tradition coming from Origen. But the whole passage if you analyse the text is coming out of nowhere like an advertisement snippet. Plus, there are no early manuscripts to try and go to the earlier text. Based on tradition of Origen mentioning Josephus, this is pure assumption that it is unlikely Josephus would mention the divinity of Jesus because of his nature, and the rest are authentic. But still it doesnt fit the surrounding verses. Also, there is double standard with Josephus being a Jewish defector then omitting certain ideas of the Christ goes to say he was a miracle worker. Also, in the middle of nowhere in his book. Just pops up like an advertisement.

With all the demand fro authenticity of manuscript evidence, there is none for Josephus.

Nevertheless, if you really want to believe the text is authentic its still alright.

 

[firedragon]

Dude, it doesn’t take a university-level historian to figure out what form of a punishment is being referred to. The passage would only be referring to crucifixion, the most severe form of execution practiced in Ancient Rome.

Lol. Again, as I said, that's probable.

 

[Sundance]

That is a facade assumption not based on text but tradition coming from Origen. But the whole passage if you analyse the text is coming out of nowhere like an advertisement snippet. Plus, there are no early manuscripts to try and go to the earlier text. Based on tradition of Origen mentioning Josephus, this is pure assumption that it is unlikely Josephus would mention the divinity of Jesus because of his nature, and the rest are authentic. But still it doesnt fit the surrounding verses. Also, there is double standard with Josephus being a Jewish defector then omitting certain ideas of the Christ goes to say he was a miracle worker. Also, in the middle of nowhere in his book. Just pops up like an advertisement.

With all the demand fro authenticity of manuscript evidence, there is none for Josephus.

Nevertheless, if you really want to believe the text is authentic its still alright.

Dude, I just quoted the original passage just below the one. I know I clarified that this one was the interpolation, not the original. It’s in the book Antiquities of the Jews.

 

[Sundance]

Lol. Again, as I said, that's probable.

It’s more than merely probable. It’s practically certain, my friend. Yet, because I can’t convince you of such, then I leave you free to believe as you will.

 

[firedragon]

Dude, it doesn’t take a university-level historian to figure out what form of a punishment is being referred to.

Yep. that's true.

 

[firedragon]

Dude, I just quoted the original passage just below the one. I know I clarified that this one was the interpolation, not the original. It’s in the book Antiquities of the Jews.

Err. Of course it is the antiquities. What else are we referring to?

Anyway, show me the oldest manuscript. Anything that is closer to Josephus.

 

[Rival]

@DNB What do you believe the Christian scriptures teach about Jesus? What is Jesus to you? How do you view the holy spirit?

Thanks.

 

[Sundance]

Err. Of course it is the antiquities. What else are we referring to?

Anyway, show me the oldest manuscript. Anything that is closer to Josephus.

The earliest extant Greek manuscripts (of which there are more than 100) date only from the 11th century CE. This is because Josephus’s works were written in Greek, which stopped being used by Jews after his era. Latin translations date back much earlier, to the 6th century. There are also Syriac and Arabic manuscripts extant dating from the 10th century. In any case, we know that they are translations and copies of Josephus’s writings, because references are made to these in not only Origen but also Eusebius.

 

[firedragon]

The earliest extant Greek manuscripts (of which there are more than 100) date only from the 11th century CE. This is because Josephus’s works were written in Greek, which stopped being used by Jews after his era. Latin translations date back much earlier, to the 6th century. There are also Syriac and Arabic manuscripts extant dating from the 10th century. In any case, we know that they are translations and copies of Josephus’s writings, because references are made to these in not only Origen but also Eusebius

Right. So the only methodology of deriving validity is of historical method. Josephus speaks of more than a dozen messiah claimants. Jesus the brother of James is mentioned specifically in chapter 9 just as an identification for James. That’s authentic. Chapter 18 miracle worker is fallacious by nature. That’s the whole point: nature of Josephus and his writing, the style, and agenda. It just doesn’t fit.

 

[Sundance]

Right. So the only methodology of deriving validity is of historical method. Josephus speaks of more than a dozen messiah claimants. Jesus the brother of James is mentioned specifically in chapter 9 just as an identification for James. That’s authentic. Chapter 18 miracle worker is fallacious by nature. That’s the whole point: nature of Josephus and his writing, the style, and agenda. It just doesn’t fit.

Indeed. While there are various things in certain passages that pose legitimate grounds to question the authenticity of said passages in the Testimonium Flavium, which is what I’m speaking to (not what was written about James), historians have salvaged Josephus’s actual thoughts from it, as I have displayed above. His testimony makes it quite clear — unambiguously at that — that Jesus of Nazareth was, indeed, executed by crucifixion upon the orders of Pontius Pilate. Any attempt at obfuscating this reflects nothing except a foolish and vain attempt at discrediting one of the central convictions of the Christian religion: Jesus of Nazareth was crucified. It’s shameful to say the least of it, and I say this as a Pagan.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I often hear Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses say to Christians, "You are not monotheists, you are polytheists" And I see how some Christians try to defend the status as monotheists, and I wonder why? For it doesn't matter if you are a monotheist or a polytheist, what matters is which God you believe in. I as a Christian say I believe in 100 Gods, but these 100 Gods do not contradict each other in their divine nature, they are one and harmonize with each other. So I am a polytheist, but I as a Christian can say that as a polytheist I will stand victorious in the end, because I believe that God became man and was crucified and was raised, which is of course my personal belief.

The reason why it is so important to Christians to be considered monotheists, is because they claim to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They have inherited from Judaism the idea that there is only ONE God. If they succumb to polytheism, then they have broken with the God of Abraham. That would pretty much pull the foundation of their religion out from under them.

 

[Teritos]

The reason why it is so important to Christians to be considered monotheists, is because they claim to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They have inherited from Judaism the idea that there is only ONE God. If they succumb to polytheism, then they have broken with the God of Abraham. That would pretty much pull the foundation of their religion out from under them.

Christianity isn't a religion, Islam and Judaism are, but not the Christian faith. And we have nothing inherited from Judaism. Christians have a different interpretation of "one", they interpret it as "unity".

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Christianity isn't a religion, Islam and Judaism are, but not the Christian faith. And we have nothing inherited from Judaism. Christians have a different interpretation of "one", they interpret it as "unity".

Christianity worships a deity, has prayers, religious rites (communion, baptism), a sacred text, holy days, a moral code... Those are all elements of a RELIGION.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has feathers like a duck, it's a duck.

 

[Teritos]

Christianity worships a deity, has prayers, religious rites (communion, baptism), a sacred text, holy days, a moral code... Those are all elements of a RELIGION.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has feathers like a duck, it's a duck.

No. Religion tells you to live like a servant, it tells you, you have to work to get salvation. Islam and Judaism tells you, you need to keep commandments to get to paradise. That's religous.
But Christianity says: You only have to believe. That's not religous, that's faith.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Most people believe the the universe was created by a single being that they call Creator God.

However that need not be the case. This universe may have been created by many beings working together.

In reality we do not know how this universe was created.

It is as likely that there are many "gods" as it is that there is only "one god"

Just as it is that there are many universes, not just one.

There are far more questions than answers.