So any explanations?
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Christians are Satanists!
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
I haven't heard of any that literally say God is Satan and Satan is God, however I do know somewhat of the dualistic theology it holds with El and the Demiurge.
I am reading it as the anger of the lord is satan. In the OT god rarely does stuff himself, he must have sent an angel (satan) to incite david. Is it some sort of test for christains and would that be god or satan doing the testing, who was really doing the testing in Job?
Oh dear. Have you put me on ignore?
"Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
"Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel."
What is "it" that I have highlighted please?
You say 2 Samuel 24:1 says The Lord moved David to do something but 1 Chronicles 21:1 says Satan moved him to do the same thing. So now you say explain how The Lord and the satan did the same thing for the same event.
2 Samuel does not say The Lord moved David to count Israel. It says the anger of The Lord caused David to count Israel. Surely you do not believe a person's anger IS the person. Do you?
2 Samuel 24:1 says the anger of The Lord caused David to count Israel.
And I said people still do it. I know at least two modern religions that use their numbers to prove to the world The Lord loves them.
Isn't that what David tried to prove by counting Israel? LOOK AT US! WE ARE GREAT! DO NOT BE ANGRY WITH US. SEE HOW MANY WE ARE!!!!!!!!!
The sins of the people that caused the anger of The Lord is the thing (not the person) that caused David to do it. That is why it is truer to say ISRAEL incited David. Why was The Lord angry at Israel? Was it because they weren't counted? No?
Please let me know I am not on ignore. Thank you.
Please let me know I am not on ignore. Thank you.
The evidence for God's anger are all the missing blessings. A person or group who is experiencing the lack of blessings from above will count things to prove to their self or itself that it is not God who is responsible for the missed blessings. What things do they count? They count their good works. They count their money. AND they count their membership. Having a sufficient number of whatever they are counting proves to them they are friends of God. You do not know this?
I feel like putting it in simple terms. I realize you are not present to respond to my previous posts.
I sin. My sin causes anger from above. I do not like the anger from above. So I sin again. My sinning again is directly related to my feelings about realizing anger is coming at me. What caused my sinning again? Did G-d cause it? OR was it a result of my first sin?
Israel sinned. G-d got angry at IT. David counted Israel perhaps hoping to deflect G-d's anger. I think that is what we are talking about. Am I so wrong nobody will answer me coherently?
So if David counted Israel because of G-d's anger what really caused him to do it? Does anyone know?
I sin. My sin causes anger from above. I do not like the anger from above. So I sin again. My sinning again is directly related to my feelings about realizing anger is coming at me. What caused my sinning again? Did G-d cause it? OR was it a result of my first sin?
Israel sinned. G-d got angry at IT. David counted Israel perhaps hoping to deflect G-d's anger. I think that is what we are talking about. Am I so wrong nobody will answer me coherently?
So if David counted Israel because of G-d's anger what really caused him to do it? Does anyone know?
The shaking of the Earth loosens a large stone from the top of a mountain. The stone starts rolling. As it is rolling it is gaining momentum or impetus. Of course the farther it rolls the faster it rolls and the stronger the force of it becomes. I think that is right.
It hits a tree. The tree breaks and falls.
What felled the tree?
The Lord is the shaking. The rolling stone is the satan. The tree is David or Israel.
Did the shaking cause the tree to fall?
It hits a tree. The tree breaks and falls.
What felled the tree?
The Lord is the shaking. The rolling stone is the satan. The tree is David or Israel.
Did the shaking cause the tree to fall?
I would like someone to say something about my post. I do not care which one.
The original post is wrong. 2 Samuel 24:1 does not say The Lord incited David against Israel. So then it seems I have kiled the thread. I am sorry.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Well there is no way to reconcile with from an orthodox viewpoint but it makes perfect sense to any Gnostic
No, I just assumed there'd be a lot more answers, specifically answers that would not have disagreement.
I believe "it" is referring to the anger of God.
I view emotions as little critters that possess the body, however I can accept the view that anger is an entirely different manifestation.
That view does make sense, thanks!
No, God and Satan are not the same person. Regarding the census David ordered, this quote from Insight on the Scriptures is helpful, I think: "Davids Calamitous Registration. A registration taken toward the end of King Davids reign is also recorded, one that brought calamity. The account at 2 Samuel 24:1 reads: And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, when one incited David against them, saying: Go, take a count of Israel and Judah. The one who did the inciting is not there identified. Was it some human counselor? Was it Satan? Or even God? First Chronicles 21:1 helps to answer the question, saying: Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel. That rendering in the New World Translation agrees with the Hebrew text and with translations into Greek, Syriac, and Latin. It is also consistent with the renderings in other translations.AT, NE, RS, JB, Mo.
However, as the footnote at 1 Chronicles 21:1 points out, the Hebrew word sa·tan′ can also be rendered a resister. Byington translates it a Satan; Youngs translation reads, an adversary. So it is possible that the one moving David to decide on the calamitous course was a bad human counselor.
Interestingly, a footnote at 2 Samuel 24:1 shows that this text could be rendered: And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, when he incited David against them. The translation in The Bible in Basic English reads: Again the wrath of the Lord was burning against Israel, and moving David against them, he said, Go, take the number of Israel and Judah. Hence, some commentators consider that the one or he who incited David to take the census was Jehovah. His anger against Israel, according to this view, predated the census and was due to their recent rebellions against Jehovah and his appointed king, David, when they followed first ambitious Absalom and then the good-for-nothing Sheba, the son of Bichri, in opposition to David. (2Sa 15:10-12; 20:1, 2) Such a viewpoint could be harmonized with the view that Satan or some bad human counselor incited David if the incitement is viewed as something that Jehovah purposely allowed, as by removing his protection or restraining hand.Compare 1Ki 22:21-23; 1 Samuel 16:14)
OK? Hit us with it.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
I don't know. I suggest asking in the Jewish DIR where there are Hebrew speakers.
Haha. It is my hobby to read Greek and Hebrew that I do not know.
2 Samuel 24:1 Hebrew Text Analysis
254 [e] 1
way·yō·sep̄ 1
וַיֹּ֙סֶף֙ 1
And again 1
Verb 1
639 [e]
ap̄-
אַף־
the anger
Noun
3068 [e]
Yah·weh,
יְהוָ֔ה
of the LORD
Noun
2734 [e]
la·ḥă·rō·wṯ
לַחֲר֖וֹת
was kindled
Verb
､
3478 [e]
bə·yiś·rā·êl;
בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל
against Israel
Noun
5496 [e]
way·yā·seṯ
וַיָּ֨סֶת
and he moved
Verb
853 [e]
eṯ-
אֶת־
-
Acc
1732 [e]
dā·wiḏ
דָּוִ֤ד
David
Noun
bā·hem
בָּהֶם֙
in
Prep
､
559 [e]
lê·mōr,
לֵאמֹ֔ר
against them to say
Verb
､
1980 [e]
lêḵ
לֵ֛ךְ
Go
Verb
4487 [e]
mə·nêh
מְנֵ֥ה
number
Verb
853 [e]
eṯ-
אֶת־
-
Acc
3478 [e]
yiś·rā·êl
יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל
Israel
Noun
853 [e]
wə·eṯ-
וְאֶת־
and
Acc
.
3063 [e]
yə·hū·ḏāh.
יְהוּדָֽה׃
Judah
Noun
Add some salt to it and you can know what it says without really knowing what it says. Try it!
וַיָּ֨סֶת This word is way-yā-seṯ this word is translated "and he moved" but not always. Click on the number 5496. It will bring you to another page. See on the right? Deuteronomy 13:6 , Joshua 15:18, Judges 1:14, 1 Samuel 26:19, 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Kings 21:25 and so on....
Now take into account that we do not own the original manuscript.
It is taking a great leap to rest on "he (YHVH) incited". See?
Now take into account that we do not own the original manuscript.
It is taking a great leap to rest on "he (YHVH) incited". See?