Christians, Catholics Mainly: Novus Ordo UK vs. US

[Rival]

I hear a lot of folks from the US complaining about the Novus Ordo and how they have started attending Tridentine Masses instead. At first I thought these were just more traditionally minded people who, for their own reasons, were a bit overly conservative and whatnot, but after hearing them speak about how the NO is celebrated in the US I'm not so sure. They speak of guitars, Protestant origin worship songs, it being all about entertainment etc. and I've heard this from so many US Catholics about their journey to the Tridentine that I figure there must be some truth to this. But this is not what I've seen or heard about in the UK. I've been to three Catholic NO Churches and not found anything like what these folks describe.

What's going on?

 

[exchemist]

I hear a lot of folks from the US complaining about the Novus Ordo and how they have started attending Tridentine Masses instead. At first I thought these were just more traditionally minded people who, for their own reasons, were a bit overly conservative and whatnot, but after hearing them speak about how the NO is celebrated in the US I'm not so sure. They speak of guitars, Protestant origin worship songs, it being all about entertainment etc. and I've heard this from so many US Catholics about their journey to the Tridentine that I figure there must be some truth to this. But this is not what I've seen or heard about in the UK. I've been to three Catholic NO Churches and not found anything like what these folks describe.

What's going on?

I don’t understand the fuss in the US either. It’s true there are trendy masses aimed often at children or young people that have modern popular style music, which I detest personally. But in sensible parishes like mine, that is only at the “family mass”. In our parish there is also a formal sung mass, which I attend, which has traditional hymns, Gregorian chant , a communion motet sung by the choir and so on, with organ accompaniment. The other masses are straight low masses, without singing. All are the ordinary mass, I.e Novus Ordo.

Novus Ordo is quite unexceptionable and only a few cranks want a Tridentine mass nowadays. But a lot of US Catholics seem to be barking mad.

 

[Rival]

I don’t understand the fuss in the US either. It’s true there are trendy masses aimed often at children or young people that have modern popular style music, which I detest personally. But in sensible parishes like mine, that is only at the “family mass”. In our parish there is also a formal sung mass, which I attend, which has traditional hymns, Gregorian chant , a communion motet sung by the choir and so on, with organ accompaniment. The other masses are straight low masses, without singing. All are the ordinary mass, I.e Novus Ordo.

Novus Ordo is quite unexceptionable and only a few cranks want a Tridentine mass nowadays. But a lot of US Catholics seem to be barking mad.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the beauty of the Tridentine and pre-Tridentine Masses, I like Latin, I prefer the style etc. I can get it as a preference, but slamming the NO always seemed huge overkill.

 

[exchemist]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the beauty of the Tridentine and pre-Tridentine Masses, I like Latin, I prefer the style etc. I can get it as a preference, but slamming the NO always seemed huge overkill.

Sure. When we lived in The Hague we attended the parish church Sint Jacobus de Meerdere (St. James the Greater) which as well as being very beautiful (see picture below) had a main Sung Mass in Latin. This was ideal for me as I did not understand Dutch but do have a Latin O level and got to know the old Latin mass when I was very small. So I have no trouble following the proceedings in Latin. But this was a Latin version of Novus Ordo, not the Tridentine mass.

They had 2 choirs at that church, a regular SATB choir and a men-only Schola Cantorum which did all the Gregorian chant, including the Asperges at the start and so on. It was a lovely, dignified ceremony, with a very friendly priest (pastoor), Fr. Ad van der Helm, who used to shake the hand of my then tiny son as he processed past our pew, much to the delight of the (mostly rather elderly) Dutch congregation. I told Fr. Ad, when we left, how much the sense of continuity with past Christianity from the Latin mass and its Gregorian chant been a comfort to us, in coping with my wife's cancer which was diagnosed while we were there.

This is the church. It's built in brick and painted throughout internally:

 

[Rival]

Sure. When we lived in The Hague we attended the parish church Sint Jacobus de Meerdere (St. James the Greater) which as well as being very beautiful (see picture below) had a main Sung Mass in Latin. This was ideal for me as I did not understand Dutch but do have a Latin O level and got to know the old Latin mass when I was very small. So I have no trouble following the proceedings in Latin. But this was a Latin version of Novus Ordo, not the Tridentine mass.

They had 2 choirs at that church, a regular SATB choir and a men-only Schola Cantorum which did all the Gregorian chant, including the Asperges at the start and so on. It was a lovely, dignified ceremony, with a very friendly priest (pastoor), Fr. Ad van der Helm, who used to shake the hand of my then tiny son as he processed past our pew, much to the delight of the (mostly rather elderly) Dutch congregation. I told Fr. Ad, when we left, how much the sense of continuity with past Christianity from the Latin mass and its Gregorian chant been a comfort to us, in coping with my wife's cancer which was diagnosed while we were there.

This is the church. It's built in brick and painted throughout internally:

This is perfection

 

[Glaurung]

I don't know what the standard experience of the Novus Ordo is like in the UK but growing up during the 90's and 00's in Australia the experience was one of mediocrity at best outright blasphemy at worst. The fundamental problem as I see it is that the Novus Ordo as I actually experienced it was bereft of any deep sense of the vertical aspect of worship. God as the transcendent being to whom we owe worship was done away with and replaced an obsessive focus on the Mass as a mere fellowship get-together. Not a sacrifice but a meal. In a word, the Novus Ordo lacked seriousness even when the overt silliness was absent. (Yes, I remember one Mass where the homily was replaced by a troop of women interpreting the Gospel reading though dance).

I've always been of the mindset that religion ought to be serious. Aging women on guitars and tambourines continually pestering me to help them sing a new Church into being did not inspire me to take the Mass at all seriously. I resented being there. I resented to oppressive banality of it all. So it was a revelation when I discovered the TLM and the Ordinariate Mass where the vertical aspect of worship was not at all downplayed. Worship that didn't skimp on the incense so to speak.

And I've never been opposed to the Novus Ordo in and of itself. I just want a Catholicism that takes itself seriously. I want a Catholicism that embraces the smells and bells of its tradition. At my local cathedral the beautiful Church organ collects dust while guitars, eclectic keyboards and tambourines continue to be ubiquitous.

 

[metis]

What's going on?

Here in the States, the right-wing backlash has also affected the Church, for better or worse. Many bishops are not fond of Pope Francis, considering him to be too liberal.

In the mid-1960's, I dated a Catholic girl and went to mass with her several times, which was in Latin, and I really enjoyed it [and her]. When Vatican II later eliminated it, which I did understand was important to do, I had mixed feelings, although I wasn't Catholic then.

My point is that there is a lot of discontent overall here, and the Church has very much been affected by it.

 

[exchemist]

I don't know what the standard experience of the Novus Ordo is like in the UK but growing up during the 90's and 00's in Australia the experience was one of mediocrity at best outright blasphemy at worst. The fundamental problem as I see it is that the Novus Ordo as I actually experienced it was bereft of any deep sense of the vertical aspect of worship. God as the transcendent being to whom we owe worship was done away with and replaced an obsessive focus on the Mass as a mere fellowship get-together. Not a sacrifice but a meal. In a word, the Novus Ordo lacked seriousness even when the overt silliness was absent. (Yes, I remember one Mass where the homily was replaced by a troop of women interpreting the Gospel reading though dance).

I've always been of the mindset that religion ought to be serious. Aging women on guitars and tambourines continually pestering me to help them sing a new Church into being did not inspire me to take the Mass at all seriously. I resented being there. I resented to oppressive banality of it all. So it was a revelation when I discovered the TLM and the Ordinariate Mass where the vertical aspect of worship was not at all downplayed. Worship that didn't skimp on the incense so to speak.

And I've never been opposed to the Novus Ordo in and of itself. I just want a Catholicism that takes itself seriously. I want a Catholicism that embraces the smells and bells of its tradition. At my local cathedral the beautiful Church organ collects dust while guitars, eclectic keyboards and tambourines continue to be ubiquitous.

I agree 100%, from an aesthetic point of view.

But it's important not to confuse Novus Ordo with bad music and lack of dignified ritual. Neither is mandated in any way by Novus Ordo. It's just a matter of what the parish priest decides to do with the freedoms it gives him.

Under Pope Benedict, who was a serious musician, we were encouraged to bring back the traditional music of the church: Gregorian chant, the Renaissance repertoire of Palestrina, Victoria, Byrd etc. And in those churches with musical priests, an organist and a choir (none of which can be taken for granted!) that's what we now do. I have been one of those instrumental in upholding that tradition at our local parish church - at the 1130 Sung Mass. But they also do a twangy, kumbaya-style family mass at 1000, which is fine by me. All tastes are catered for.

The thing is, music is a very personal thing and it touches people deeply. So music can really add to the experience, if it is sensitively deployed. The flip side of that is that, to me, bad music wrecks the service: it puts me in a foul mood and is like being in hell. I find my toes curling and can't wait to get out. I've no doubt there are those that equally deeply hate Gregorian chant, or Bach. So the intelligent priest will, if he has the resources, have different styles of mass for different groups of parishioners. We are lucky in having a good organist and a choir director (I was on the panel that appointed her) and a small choir, most of whom are fairly competent. So we do have Gregorian chant some Sundays, we can manage a few simple motets during communion and we have traditional hymns. We also imported from the Anglicans their traditional 4 part harmony for the psalm - the last Bishop particularly liked those when he came to visit, for confirmations etc.

For example, we will have a carol service tomorrow afternoon including one of my favourite carols, as below (look out for the old choristers' joke at 1:40 - we won't do that in church of course .)

 

[pearl]

The flip side of that is that, to me, bad music wrecks the service: it puts me in a foul mood and is like being in hell.

And that's unfortunate, attention is on the rubrics and not the Eucharist. That's also one of my favorite carols. The only Christmas decoration I have outside on the lawn is the Angel Gabriel.

 

[pearl]

And I've never been opposed to the Novus Ordo in and of itself. I just want a Catholicism that takes itself seriously. I want a Catholicism that embraces the smells and bells of its tradition. At my local cathedral the beautiful Church organ collects dust while guitars, eclectic keyboards and tambourines continue to be ubiquitous.

We have not had guitars and such since the seventies. And our organ resounds at all masses. The earliest has no choir. The smell of incense and the communion bells are also present.

 

[pearl]

But in sensible parishes like mine, that is only at the “family mass”.

We have a family mass maybe twice a year. And the children of the parish are responsible for much of it, the artwork, some of the readings, the prayer of the faithful and the children's choir.

 

[pearl]

It would do many of us well to become familiar with the churches of the NT especially of Paul. The Church was not born at Trent!
The Early Eucharist: How Was It Experienced? - Homiletic & Pastoral Review (hprweb.com)

 

[exchemist]

And that's unfortunate, attention is on the rubrics and not the Eucharist. That's also one of my favorite carols. The only Christmas decoration I have outside on the lawn is the Angel Gabriel.

That’s the point: music can either be a powerful aid to devotion or a serious distraction, depending on one’s taste, because it can affect one so strongly.