Christians: God is Not Omnipotent

[sandy whitelinger]

This came up a long time ago, and at the request of my wife I'm making it the topic of this latest de-lurking.

I believe that one of the greatest obstacles to many people's understanding of God is the prefix "omni-". Not only is non-scriptural, but it's a logical construct that carries its own contradictions with it! Come on, we've all heard them, about God making a rock so big He can't lift it, or making a being that can armwrestle Him, or making an immoveable post AND an unstoppable cannonball at the same time, or making a tree so thick He can't cut it, or floating a loan He can't repay. We blow these off because they are juvenile pseudo-intellectualism--and they are--but they contain at their heart a genuine contradiction that crops up in questions that are much more worthy. Chief among these IMO is the riddle of Epicurus:



Much as we may hate it or be tired of hearing it--I've saving my rebuttal of line 2 for another thread--I believe this riddle contains questions worth asking. Many answers I've heard deal with this in one way or another, but in the end most boil down to a backpedal: "God is not omnipotent." I'm quite fond of the lines from George Burns' "Oh God!" movies, where the little girl asks why He made bad things, and He replies, "Have you ever seen a front without a back? A top without a bottom?" She says she hasn't, and He explains that He can't make things without making their opposites. Cute, certainly; profound, maybe, but it amounts to saying that God isn't omnipotent, because there's something He can't do. Admitting that from the outset might eliminate a lot of confusion.

Not only is the term "omnipotent" logically baseless, it's scripturally baseless. The Bible actually states things that God cannot do, such as lie (Titus 1:2). Can God die? I know few Christians who interpret the term this way, but this only begs the question as to why we use this term at all.

You left out a few other things god cannot do such as lie. He cannot allow anyone into heaven except through Christ. God cannot sin. God cannot stop being God. He cannot learn anything new.

 

[Ratiocinative]

This came up a long time ago, and at the request of my wife I'm making it the topic of this latest de-lurking.

I believe that one of the greatest obstacles to many people's understanding of God is the prefix "omni-". Not only is non-scriptural, but it's a logical construct that carries its own contradictions with it! Come on, we've all heard them, about God making a rock so big He can't lift it, or making a being that can armwrestle Him, or making an immoveable post AND an unstoppable cannonball at the same time, or making a tree so thick He can't cut it, or floating a loan He can't repay. We blow these off because they are juvenile pseudo-intellectualism--and they are--but they contain at their heart a genuine contradiction that crops up in questions that are much more worthy. Chief among these IMO is the riddle of Epicurus:



Much as we may hate it or be tired of hearing it--I've saving my rebuttal of line 2 for another thread--I believe this riddle contains questions worth asking. Many answers I've heard deal with this in one way or another, but in the end most boil down to a backpedal: "God is not omnipotent." I'm quite fond of the lines from George Burns' "Oh God!" movies, where the little girl asks why He made bad things, and He replies, "Have you ever seen a front without a back? A top without a bottom?" She says she hasn't, and He explains that He can't make things without making their opposites. Cute, certainly; profound, maybe, but it amounts to saying that God isn't omnipotent, because there's something He can't do. Admitting that from the outset might eliminate a lot of confusion.

Not only is the term "omnipotent" logically baseless, it's scripturally baseless. The Bible actually states things that God cannot do, such as lie (Titus 1:2). Can God die? I know few Christians who interpret the term this way, but this only begs the question as to why we use this term at all.

Omnipotent is in the Bible. Almighty and omnipotent are perfect synonyms in this context, so either word is acceptable. Omnipotent means limitless power, Power is the ability to cause change. God can cause limitless change. Silly arguments that people often use are amusing, but beyond that they're meaningless contradictions that have nothing to do with causing change.

Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? - Since God can cause unlimited change, the rock would have to infinitely heavy for him to be unable to lift it. Two infinites existing at the same time is impossible, it would be a contradiction.

Can God create a square with three sides? - This one is rather obvious. If it has three sides it is by definition a triangle, and therefore not a square. Just another contradictory statement.

Can God Sin? - Yes, God has the ability to sin, but he chooses not to because he has no desire to. Anything you do you do because you desire to do that action or you desire the results of that action. If you don't desire it, then you don't do it.
If you look at the original Greek, a more direct translation of Titus 1:2 is "God speaks anti-lies", so to put that in more common English "God speaks the truth". KJV strikes again!

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

And the Riddle of Epicurus is child's play:
Evil exists because God wants people to make a choice, that's why humans were created. God wants people who have made the choice to love him out of their own free will. What would be the enjoyment in having programmed robots "love" you? The times you feel most appreciated are when people do things for you when they don't have to, but just because they wanted to. It isn't enjoyable when people do things for you if they are forced to, and it some cases it can be insulting. Evil is an unavoidable byproduct of free will because some people, most people actually, will choose to ignore God and do whatever feels right in their mind. If God were to "smite" everyone who sinned there would be no one left, or even if it was just the "really bad" people then everyone who was left would respond to God out of fear rather than love. God's "behind the scenes" approach is the only logical course of action.

 

[lilithu]

You left out a few other things god cannot do such as lie. He cannot allow anyone into heaven except through Christ.

Can't? Or won't?

God cannot sin. God cannot stop being God. He cannot learn anything new.

Your God cannot learn anything new? Poor guy; I feel sorry for him.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Some people would say that, between the three of us (DeepShadow, you and I), we're out to dimish the greatness of God.

Hey!.....Hey!.......

Don't leave me out. I've asked questions like this too....starting from Genesis to the NT.......


You know....Why was God in the garden asking Adam and Eve all those silly questions if he was omniscient.....

Things that make you go......hmmmmm!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Omnipotent means possessing unlimited and universal powers...God is omnipotent in the spiritual dimension...and if he ever portayed any physical universal powers he would be breaking his own infallible laws of nature...so...God has never and will never interfere in the physical universe.

So what was with him back in Genesis forming the earth if he does not interfer with the physical universe?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Frubals for the challenge!

I stand corrected in part: the word is present in a single verse of the KJV, but the Greek term "Pantocrator" was given a different meaning in the Revised version; it seems translators differed and some chose a term established by tradition. Nevertheless, the definition for the term comes from tradition, not scripture. Or can you find me a scripture that states that God can do absolutely anything? (This isn't facetious; you've surprised me already)

According to Strong's Concordance, the term "Pantocrator" means "all-ruling," and is therefore a reference to God's sovereignty.

Well most will point you to that verse that "With God all things are possible".......

not sure I totally gree with it.....but that's just me....

 

[tomspug]

Ugh, why does mankind keep projecting himself onto God? Do you really think humans are capable of understanding fully the concept of all-powerful? I wonder if conversations like this one would be humorous to God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Ugh, why does mankind keep projecting himself onto God? Do you really think humans are capable of understanding fully the concept of all-powerful? I wonder if conversations like this one would be humorous to God.

I see what you mean.....

but you just said "humorous to God"......

Wouldn't that be man projecting himself on to God?

 

[tomspug]

I see what you mean.....

but you just said "humorous to God"......

Wouldn't that be man projecting himself on to God?

Touche'!

Although it would make sense to me that if God created us (with a sense of humor) then humor must be something he is at least capable of. Not to say it defines him.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Touche'!

Although it would make sense to me that if God created us (with a sense of humor) then humor must be something he is at least capable of. Not to say it defines him.

I can go along with that.......

 

[Rolling_Stone]

This came up a long time ago, and at the request of my wife I'm making it the topic of this latest de-lurking.

Not only is the term "omnipotent" logically baseless, it's scripturally baseless. The Bible actually states things that God cannot do, such as lie (Titus 1:2). Can God die? I know few Christians who interpret the term this way, but this only begs the question as to why we use this term at all.

Words can be confusing.

Omnipotence, according to my dictionary and the way I use it, is “having virtually unlimited authority or influence”; omnificence is “unlimited in creative power.” The Father is omnipotent, not omnificent. The difference is subtle but vital to a comprehensive understanding of the Divine. God doesn't do anything but nothing is done without him.

An omnificent God is tantamount to pantheism and vulnerable to the "Riddle of Epicurus."

 

[RomCat]

God is omnipotent but God cannot
betray or contradict Himself.
How could God make a rock too heavy
for Him to lift? That would mean the
rock would be more powerful than God.
Do you see the absurdity of asking such
a question?

 

[Enoch07]

Quote:
The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Line 1 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? God is able if He wanted to, but in order for free will to work there has to be evil allowed.
Line 2 Is He able, but not willing? Yes He is Omnipotent, its called free will, if He did it would be interfering with free will.
Line 3 Is He both able and willing? Same as line 2 answer.
Line 4 Is He neither able nor willing? Same as line 2 answer.

This riddle is the whiniest thing I ever read. Oh God allows this to happen, God allows that to happen boo-hoo-hoo. Anyone that believes this way needs to grow up, and toughen up. The world is harsh place and has no room for complainers who do nothing but sit around whining about how God does not give them life on a silver platter.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Nor is God omniscient. Otherwise, He would not have needed to test Job.

He didn't test Job to learn what Job would would do. He did it as a lesson for Job. Our trials and tribulations have purpose.

He didn't put people on earth for them to prove themselves to Him. He already knows what each person will do.

 

[Katzpur]

This riddle is the whiniest thing I ever read. Oh God allows this to happen, God allows that to happen boo-hoo-hoo. Anyone that believes this way needs to grow up, and toughen up. The world is harsh place and has no room for complainers who do nothing but sit around whining about how God does not give them life on a silver platter.

Amen!

 

[ἀλήθεια]

What about Rev. 19:6

Indeed! God's holiness prevents Him from lying, but does not diminish His power.

"His counsel shall stand, and he will do all his pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10).

 

[edward]

You left out a few other things god cannot do such as lie. He cannot allow anyone into heaven except through Christ.

Can't? Or won't?

Doesn't.

Originally Posted by sandy whitelinger
God cannot sin. God cannot stop being God. He cannot learn anything new.

Your God cannot learn anything new? Poor guy; I feel sorry for him.

I wouldn't feel sorry for the originator of all things including knowledge. What else do you suppose God would have to learn?

 

[edward]

Ugh, why does mankind keep projecting himself onto God? Do you really think humans are capable of understanding fully the concept of all-powerful? I wonder if conversations like this one would be humorous to God.

Ironically, I see a strong theme here. Those those who appear to struggle with the omnipotence of God also appear to struggle with ability of God being God, thusly attempt to make Him to be somewhat human. Or to refer to Emile Durkheim ... God and religion are an invention of man for the purpose of enforcing social mores.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Not only is the term "omnipotent" logically baseless, it's scripturally baseless. The Bible actually states things that God cannot do, such as lie (Titus 1:2). Can God die? I know few Christians who interpret the term this way, but this only begs the question as to why we use this term at all.

As Free4all posted http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/780837-post7.html , God's omnipotence is NOT scripturally baseless. The problem is that men try to apply a different definition to omnipotence than the Bible does.

The biblical defintion is the ability to do anything that a being sets out to do.

Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee: (Jeremiah 32:17)

Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places. (Psalm 135:6)

Is God almighty?

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. (Revelation 15:3)

 

[LittleNipper]

It must be understood that GOD is PERFECT. HE also exists throughout time. HE knows the beginning and totally sees the finale into eternity. SO seeing the total picture, HE knows why HE allows somethings and not other things with HIS permissive will and why HE choose to create even though HE full well knew what would happen under the parameters HE established for whatever reasons HE choose estabish them...