Christians how do we screw this up?

[ForeverFaithful]

Today I was teaching Sunday school for our preteens,(We order a book which I've noticed is awfully conservative for an Anglican church) I was flipping through our book when I stumbled upon a previous lesson about grace and faith,

One part caught my eye since it seemed to go out of it's way to denounce "Mormons and Muslims" because they believe in "salvation by works"

I also recalled this Christmas when my cousins came over, now my Uncle is very high up in his company so he can afford to send my cousin to a Christian Private school, so I was discussing this with him and right afterwards he began discussing those "dirty gyspses"

Seriously what is up with this constant "Us Vs Them" Christianity, "They're getting in heaven they're going straight to hell"

And just the idea of "Christian culture", like something cheapens when we try and mass produce Christianity, like the idea of Christian schools, is that really what Jesus had in mind? It's like we've become the New Pharisees

 

[Katzpur]

Today I was teaching Sunday school for our preteens,(We order a book which I've noticed is awfully conservative for an Anglican church) I was flipping through our book when I stumbled upon a previous lesson about grace and faith,

One part caught my eye since it seemed to go out of it's way to denounce "Mormons and Muslims" because they believe in "salvation by works"

I also recalled this Christmas when my cousins came over, now my Uncle is very high up in his company so he can afford to send my cousin to a Christian Private school, so I was discussing this with him and right afterwards he began discussing those "dirty gyspses"

Seriously what is up with this constant "Us Vs Them" Christianity, "They're getting in heaven they're going straight to hell"

And just the idea of "Christian culture", like something cheapens when we try and mass produce Christianity, like the idea of Christian schools, is that really what Jesus had in mind? It's like we've become the New Pharisees

Here are my thoughts:

People hate that which they fear. They fear what they don't understand, and they don't understand what they're unwilling to truly study with an open mind. It's just a whole lot easier to denounce what other people believe than to go to the trouble of really comprehending their doctrines.

A number of years ago, I read an excellent book called "How Wide the Divide?" It was written jointly by an LDS scholar and an Evangelical scholar. Their purpose was to discuss four topics, to each explain their perspective and to comment on the other person's perspective (after actually hearing it). I was pretty pumped up about the book. "Robinson (the Mormon) is going to have Bloomberg (the Evangelical) for lunch!" I thought. Turns out he didn't. It didn't work the other way around either. I learned that there are actually legitimate reasons behind Evangelical Christian doctrine and that they didn't just come up with their beliefs out of thin air. Hopefully, Evangelical readers would have come to the same conclusion, except in reverse.

For instance, if someone tells you that Mormons believe in salvation by works, and you trust that person or source for accurate information, that's what you're going to believe. And if you go into Mormon sources with that mindset, you're probably going to come away convinced of it. What? Because Mormons believe that faith without works is dead. We believe in not just talking the talk, but in walking the walk. We believe that Jesus Christ gave us commandments, not suggestions, and that He wasn't just doing it to hear Himself talk. But are we saved by works? No. After all is said and done, we could not conceivably save ourselves. We have all sinned and are all in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God. Without His grace and His mercy, not a one of us could possibly be saved.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

If I may for a moment put on my discarded but well-kept RC hat, the fact that the majority (to my knowledge) of Christian denominations believe in salvation through faith in Christ is directly contrary to the notion of salvation through works.

The most telling statement perhaps, and the most contested in some ways is that of John 14:6 ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.’ Now most Christians, in particular conservative and traditionalists favour a more literal interpretation of this, in that heaven (and thus salvation) can only be achieved through belief in Jesus Christ and the teachings of Christianity. However, less traditional interpretations, and those used by the salvation through works community often interpret 'through me' to mean following what Jesus taught (being a good person), rather than ascribing to the religion itself.

James 2:17 suggests that without actions to backup one's espoused beliefs, that an individual's commitment to those beliefs is empty and of little merit. This strongly supports the idea of salvation through works, on the other hand, this is directly contrasted in Eph. 2:8,9 which says that it is only God's grace that grants salvation, that no action a person can undertake can 'save' them.

However questions of whether salvation by works versus only through gods grace aside, hubris is not a christian virtue, so remaining open about the alternative view point should be embraced.

 

[Me Myself]

Today I was teaching Sunday school for our preteens,(We order a book which I've noticed is awfully conservative for an Anglican church) I was flipping through our book when I stumbled upon a previous lesson about grace and faith,

One part caught my eye since it seemed to go out of it's way to denounce "Mormons and Muslims" because they believe in "salvation by works"

I also recalled this Christmas when my cousins came over, now my Uncle is very high up in his company so he can afford to send my cousin to a Christian Private school, so I was discussing this with him and right afterwards he began discussing those "dirty gyspses"

Seriously what is up with this constant "Us Vs Them" Christianity, "They're getting in heaven they're going straight to hell"

And just the idea of "Christian culture", like something cheapens when we try and mass produce Christianity, like the idea of Christian schools, is that really what Jesus had in mind? It's like we've become the New Pharisees

"Love God above everything and everyone, and love ach othr the same way I loved you. This is all the law and the prophets"


I think it is plain human nature taking it´s course. I think a real christian doesn´t care who you are and what you believe in, he tries to be compasionate towards you and treates you like the brother you are, and like the child of God that God sees in you with love.

We cannot excape the dogmas, remember that it was not the dogmas that were wrong when jesus spoke about the pharisees, but the spirit and the following of it. The sabhat was made for man and not the man for the sabhat. I belive "sabhat" can be replaced with "dogma". Every Dogmas has Jesus saying we should love each other, he didn´t say love only those who share your beliefs. Then what confusion is there that is of importance?

Is not so much that we "lost" the track, is that no matter the time or the beliefs, those who follow the true path atr narrow. I have always believed that those who folow the true path may be buddhists, atheists, christians, doesn´t matter. The narrow path is indiscriminated compasion. Not a dogma.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

If you're thinking BIBLICALLY, you realize Scrtipture is pretty clear that there's only one way to be forgiven:faith in Jesus. Biblically speaking, universalism is a lie from the Devil. I do agree that too often Christians forget Ephesians 6:12:

"12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

That calls for wisdom and tact when dealing with people of other religions. Something that's much easier to talk about than actually do.

 

[Me Myself]

If you're thinking BIBLICALLY, you realize Scrtipture is pretty clear that there's only one way to be forgiven:faith in Jesus. Biblically speaking, universalism is a lie from the Devil. I do agree that too often Christians forget Ephesians 6:12:

"12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

That calls for wisdom and tact when dealing with people of other religions. Something that's much easier to talk about than actually do.

You will not find one quote rom Jesus saying that only those who worship him will be saved. You persist in putting Paul over Jesus.

We´ve been over this before. You didn´t find any quote.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

You will not find one quote rom Jesus saying that only those who worship him will be saved. You persist in putting Paul over Jesus.

We´ve been over this before. You didn´t find any quote.

Luke 10:16 "Then he said to the disciples, "Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me. And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me.""

Johm 12:48
But all who reject me and my message will be judged on the day of judgment by the truth I have spoken.



Matthew 10:

Context
<< Matthew 10 >>
New American Standard BibleThe Twelve Disciples; Instructions for Service
1Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. 2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him. 5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: &#8220;Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7&#8220;And as you go, preach, saying, &#8216;The kingdom of heaven is at hand.&#8217; 8&#8220;Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. 9&#8220;Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. 11&#8220;And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. 12&#8220;As you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13&#8220;If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14&#8220;Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15&#8220;Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

 

[Katzpur]

Uh, people... This thread wasn't started to argue the specifics of salvation. It was started (I think) to get to the bottom of the issue of why we as Christians have to always be at each other's throats. Jesus Christ said, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." Christians today seem to want nothing more than to disparage one another. It's like we're all saying, "If you don't believe exactly as I do, you're going to hell." Rather than get off on a tangent as to what one must do to be saved, why don't we actually address the issue at hand.

 

[ChristineES]

As soon as I am perfect, as soon as I know everything, then I will be able to judge another person's heart. Until then, then I will just accept any denomination. It's easy to throw verses around but a bit harder to explain what they truly mean.

 

[bigbird123456789]

I would not be supprised that if you turn on the christian or God channle today you may hear someone preaching absolutes, like christians are saved and the non christian is going to hell.
I think that we should be careful not to make what we think or feel become the doctrine, but in love preach christ jesus as the bible says.
Salvation is left to God, who knows the judgement of any man, ultimately the decision lies with God. Some non Christians actually live more holy lives according to the flesh than christians, surley God will judge a man according to where he is. Christians should focus on preaching the love of God and not judgement, remembring His mercy enjures forever. I beleive in the Gosple but who knows the begining from the end but God, even christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

 

[Bob Dixon]

If you're thinking BIBLICALLY, you realize Scrtipture is pretty clear that there's only one way to be forgiven:faith in Jesus. Biblically speaking, universalism is a lie from the Devil. I do agree that too often Christians forget Ephesians 6:12:

"12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

That calls for wisdom and tact when dealing with people of other religions. Something that's much easier to talk about than actually do.

Ephesians is contested by scholars, to say the least. Its authenticity is disputed.

Read all of James.

 

[sunshineydays]

Today I was teaching Sunday school for our preteens,(We order a book which I've noticed is awfully conservative for an Anglican church) I was flipping through our book when I stumbled upon a previous lesson about grace and faith,

One part caught my eye since it seemed to go out of it's way to denounce "Mormons and Muslims" because they believe in "salvation by works"

I also recalled this Christmas when my cousins came over, now my Uncle is very high up in his company so he can afford to send my cousin to a Christian Private school, so I was discussing this with him and right afterwards he began discussing those "dirty gyspses"

Seriously what is up with this constant "Us Vs Them" Christianity, "They're getting in heaven they're going straight to hell"

And just the idea of "Christian culture", like something cheapens when we try and mass produce Christianity, like the idea of Christian schools, is that really what Jesus had in mind? It's like we've become the New Pharisees

All I can say is how am I any differant if I only love those that love me, even the heathen, or differant religion, or differant thinkers do this. People tend to only love those that love them, actually their group of alike believers. This makes no one any differant tham the heathen, the mormon, the babtist, the Jehovah witness, and many more
.
Christ loved all, even the pharisees, they are the ones that went against, and plotted his death, because he would not conform to them, and the people were following Jesus wherever he was at. Jesus just stuck to telling the truth, and did not condemn. He let man condemn himself, he, nor anyone that believes in him, needs to condemn, man does this to himself, if we let him.
sunshineydays