Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I am aware of your concept of evidence which is an arbitrary stricture.
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Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the theology is lacking a correct perspective. I believe it is man placing his experience of time into his interpretation of the Bible.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the contrary is true. Archeology has confirmed many things from the bible. If there are differences that may be because the archeology has not caught up with the truth yet.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Yes, as we both know there is a plethora of evidence that many stories in the Bible were taken from older stories, such as Greek mythology. As I explained in another thread, replace the name Jesus with Attis (the Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation), and you'll have a strikingly familiar savior story similar to that of Jesus, except the Greek myths about Attis are dated 1250 BCE, which predates the Bible and Christianity (see here). Furthermore, you could replace the name Jesus Christ with any of the other gods described in the following articles linked below, and you'll have more strikingly familiar stories that not only parallel the stories of his alleged crucifixion, death, and resurrection but also parallel other stories that have been written in the Bible about his supposed life on Earth. And, like the myths about Attis, these other stories about Christ-like figures from Greek mythology and other pagan religions predate both the Bible and Christianity. I recommend learning more about Jesus in comparative mythology. You can start here: Jesus in comparative mythology. In my opinion, these other accounts of Christlike figures demonstrate that paganism had a significant influence on the stories about Jesus and that Christianity's beliefs are not unique. I know that Christians like to claim that the Bible was divinely inspired by God and that Christianity is the only true religion, but I don't believe that is true based on the information provided in these articles and in other similar ones. Christianity, in my opinion, is a copycat religion.
10 Christ-Like Figures that predate Jesus
The Truth About Mythological Figures Similar To Jesus
Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, yeah, we all agree that the Bible and NT are man-made fiction. But then, what is the Baha'i Faith? Their claim is that all of the major religions were true, originally. But where's the evidence of any supposedly "true" original writings and teachings?
So, is the Baha'i Faith taking bits and pieces of the other religions, mostly Shia Islam, a creating a new religion? Or, did it really come from some divine being? Supposedly the same one the "revealed" all the other religions... that, of course, all contradict each other.
Oh, and spirit beings can communicate with you, but the great almighty God can't? If this God is real, I think he could. Again... he can communicate to his special manifestations. He can communicate to prophets. But ordinary humans? That's not something he can do or wants to do?
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
First of all, this thread isn't about the Baha'i Faith. It is about Christianity. Secondly, I don't know enough about the Baha'i Faith to say one way or another, even if this thread were about it. The Baha'i Faith is @Trailblazer's expertise, not mine. Thirdly, I don't argue or debate with other people about my beliefs concerning the afterlife or my experiences with spirits as a psychic medium. For the record, I've provided plenty of information about what I believe and what my experiences with spirits are like in various threads, including my own, so the information is available to read. Lastly, I don't believe that I've had any form of communication from God (answered prayers) during all the years that I believed in him (read here). I have serious doubts that he even exists.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The person that started the thread is a Baha'i. There was a reason why he asked the question. He abandoned his own thread, which happens a lot with Baha'is. Usually, that's when TB takes over. And once she's involved, it is about the Baha'i Faith.
But, your right, don't debate it. Thanks for your response.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is not about the Bahai Faith because I make it about the Baha'i Faith. Once you become involved you make all the threads I start about the Baha'i Faith vs. other religions, even though that is not what I started those threads to discuss. You even make threads that Christians start about the Baha'i Faith vs. Christianity. You love to discuss the Baha'i Faith, but I don't mind because it is good for business, and you are a very knowledgeable non-Baha'i.
Brian2
Veteran Member
But when we look at the stories of Attis around we see they are nothing like the story of Jesus.
Is Jesus an Updated Attis?
The purpose of this blog is to disprovethis latter claim by showing that there is no real parallel between theresurrection of Attis and the resurrection of Jesus. Because of his wound, Attis bled to death in the forest.Grief-stricken, Cybele is said to have brought Attis back to life. According…
Attis, Cybele, and Jesus
Answering Bible contradictions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations
www.tektonics.org
The whole idea of gods, demigods, having big things in common with Jesus is a big lie.
Richard Carrier does not use the BS stories about these gods that float around the internet. He is more subtle in his approach but still manages to say that these gods, which have nothing much in common with Jesus at all, are still sources for the story of Jesus.
You should go through each of the gods mentioned in Jesus plagiarization sites and see the real similarities, which are usually pretty minor if there at all.
The truth is that Jesus fulfills OT prophecy and that from what I have checked, these prophecies predate the god myths you cite, unless of course you say that most of the OT was written around the time of the Babylonian exile. You probably do say that and that may help preserve your fantasy about these Greek myths and Jesus, even though the stories are nothing like Jesus. (and btw, Jesus was not born on Dec 25).
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
But when we look at the stories of Attis around we see they are nothing like the story of Jesus.
Is Jesus an Updated Attis?
The purpose of this blog is to disprovethis latter claim by showing that there is no real parallel between theresurrection of Attis and the resurrection of Jesus. Because of his wound, Attis bled to death in the forest.Grief-stricken, Cybele is said to have brought Attis back to life. According…thedailyapologist.com
Attis, Cybele, and Jesus
Answering Bible contradictions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretationswww.tektonics.org
The whole idea of gods, demigods, having big things in common with Jesus is a big lie.
Richard Carrier does not use the BS stories about these gods that float around the internet. He is more subtle in his approach but still manages to say that these gods, which have nothing much in common with Jesus at all, are still sources for the story of Jesus.
You should go through each of the gods mentioned in Jesus plagiarization sites and see the real similarities, which are usually pretty minor if there at all.
The truth is that Jesus fulfills OT prophecy and that from what I have checked, these prophecies predate the god myths you cite, unless of course you say that most of the OT was written around the time of the Babylonian exile. You probably do say that and that may help preserve your fantasy about these Greek myths and Jesus, even though the stories are nothing like Jesus. (and btw, Jesus was not born on Dec 25).
Yes, I'm aware of and have studied the Christian apologetic attempts to justify a belief in Jesus, and yes, I'm aware that his supposed birth date wasn't Dec. 25th. And don't bother trying to argue with me about it. I'm not interested. Despite what you might think, I have read and studied the Bible extensively.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
After the OP, here's one of Loverofhumanity's posts.
The point seems to be that he wanted to show that people in all religions believe for the same reasons. One of them being, "having a gut feeling" it is true. The question he asks is then if the Christian has a "gut" feeling and the person in another religion has a "gut" feeling, why do some Christians say that the person's in the other religions is wrong and that they are being deceived?
This makes it about the Baha'i Faith, because for the Baha'i Faith to be true all the major religions have to be equally true. They can't have Christians being the "only way" and "only" truth. To one of the Christians shortly there after I posted this.
Going by the basic beliefs and practices of Christianity or any of the other religions, all religions contradict each other. They all can't be true. Unless... there is a way to eliminate all those apparent differences and contradictions.
That is the Baha'i belief. Get rid of the belief that one person's religion is superior to another's. However, I think there is a lot of manipulation and reinterpreting and ignoring that has to go on to force religions to all be "one". But that is something that is necessary for the Baha'is to accomplish. They need the differences in all the other religions to be done away with and all the things they have in common to be brought to the forefront. Then the next step is... accepting that the Baha'i Faith is the next step in the progression of God's teachings. That Baha'u'llah is the prophet for this day and age.
Anyway, that's why I think that from the beginning, this thread was about the Baha'i Faith.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, not at all. The Baha'is are not going to force the religions to become one and it is not something for Baha'is to accomplish. It is something that will unfold naturally over time, as religions choose to unite. We know that eventually it will come to fruition because it is what God has ordained. It will be accomplished through the power of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, not by the Baha'is.
“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91
For certain Baha'is, all the threads they start are about the Baha'i Faith since they can think of nothing else.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Archaeology has shown there is no way the early Bible scriptures are anything but a foundation mythology.
From the 2nd Temple Period onwards the historical information is enough to show it's all borrowed mythology mixed with Jewish elements.
Archaeology has shown the Israelites came from Canaan, not Egypt.
Genesis is a re-working of older Mesopotamian creation/flood myths.
There was no conquest, just a peaceful move from Canaan.
For many centuries Yahweh was worshipped with a goddess.
Yahweh is a typical Near Eastern deity, similar Gods existed for thousands of years.
NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Archeology of the Hebrew Bible | PBS
In this article, archaeologist and biblical scholar William Dever discusses how archeology can offer vivid insights into the biblical world.
www.pbs.org
PROVING THE BIBLE
Q: Have biblical archeologists traditionally tried to find evidence that events in the Bible really happened?William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.
Dever: We know today, from archeological investigation, that there were more than 300 early villages of the 13th and 12th century in the area. I call these "proto-Israelite" villages.
Forty years ago it would have been impossible to identify the earliest Israelites archeologically. We just didn't have the evidence. And then, in a series of regional surveys, Israeli archeologists in the 1970s began to find small hilltop villages in the central hill country north and south of Jerusalem and in lower Galilee. Now we have almost 300 of them.
THE ORIGINS OF ISRAEL
Q: What have archeologists learned from these settlements about the early Israelites? Are there signs that the Israelites came in conquest, taking over the land from Canaanites?Dever: The settlements were founded not on the ruins of destroyed Canaanite towns but rather on bedrock or on virgin soil. There was no evidence of armed conflict in most of these sites. Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or destroyed by "Sea People"—Philistines, or others.
So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.
So what we are dealing with is a movement of peoples but not an invasion of an armed corps from the outside. A social and economic revolution, if you will, rather than a military revolution. And it begins a slow process in which the Israelites distinguish themselves from their Canaanite ancestors, particularly in religion—with a new deity, new religious laws and customs, new ethnic markers, as we would call them today.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Yes I agree but you should be aware of crank amateur scholarship. The article based on Zeitgeist isn't a good source. That was based on D.M. Murdock's work and she was good but just not always correct. For the most accurate information stick to peer-reviewed works.
If you see Mithras, for example, as a dying/rising deity it's based on some amateur crank.
Dr Carrier has a good book On the Historicity of Jesus, peer-reviewed and well written with many many sources.
He also has a free blog, there is an article on this subject with information from the book:
Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier Blogs
Easter this year lands most fittingly on April Fool’s Day. Because indeed, the resurrection of Jesus is akin to the greatest prank in history. Not because anyone actually faked it (though the evidence we have left, remains fully consistent with their having done so: see Robert Price’s chapter...
www.richardcarrier.info
David Litwa just wrote a work on Jesus as a Greek deity and
Dr. Richard C. Miller has an amazing but harder to read monograph -
Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity
He was just on mythvision
The Resurrection of Jesus and Other Fables?
Dr. Richard C. Miller, historian, ex-fundamentalist Christian, author - Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity
19:50 Does the NT fit into classic Greek literature? Yes.
Lataster also has a great book on Jesus mythicism.
All of this are historical PhD who specializes in Jesus and the relation to Greek mythology. Dr Carrier looks at all of the evidence for historicity vs mythicism.
The Zeitgeist theory about astrotheism is not supported by evidence. There is probably some truth there and the 12 apostles theme is common because of the zodiac but there are mistakes that some PhDs point out.
Dennis R. MacDonald does great work as well with the comparisons to Odyssey but it's just him right now so it gets written off by apologists as nonsense. But Miller is arguing, with tons of evidence that the NT should be viewed as a branch of Greek classical literature. His work is very high caliber.
joelr
Well-Known Member
All historians say the Bible was written after the exile. Doesn't matter because the first Gospel, the others copied from USED THE OT to create a narrative. Verbatim at times. The Kings narrative, Elija, Moses, Psalms verbatim, it isn't "fulfilled prophecy" it's a pt 2 now using Greek Hellenistic savior demigods for salvation. Mark was clever enough to make a metaphor with the Yom Kippur/Passover goat sacrifices with Jesus and Barabus. One set free, one dies for sin atonement. Excellent fiction using Greek salvation mythology.But when we look at the stories of Attis around we see they are nothing like the story of Jesus.
Is Jesus an Updated Attis?
The purpose of this blog is to disprovethis latter claim by showing that there is no real parallel between theresurrection of Attis and the resurrection of Jesus. Because of his wound, Attis bled to death in the forest.Grief-stricken, Cybele is said to have brought Attis back to life. According…
Attis, Cybele, and Jesus
Answering Bible contradictions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretationswww.tektonics.org
The whole idea of gods, demigods, having big things in common with Jesus is a big lie.
Richard Carrier does not use the BS stories about these gods that float around the internet. He is more subtle in his approach but still manages to say that these gods, which have nothing much in common with Jesus at all, are still sources for the story of Jesus.
You should go through each of the gods mentioned in Jesus plagiarization sites and see the real similarities, which are usually pretty minor if there at all.
The truth is that Jesus fulfills OT prophecy and that from what I have checked, these prophecies predate the god myths you cite, unless of course you say that most of the OT was written around the time of the Babylonian exile. You probably do say that and that may help preserve your fantasy about these Greek myths and Jesus, even though the stories are nothing like Jesus. (and btw, Jesus was not born on Dec 25).
Those examples were not the best. Carrier has better examples. But there is something you refuse to understand -
Every dying-and-rising god is different. Every death is different. Every resurrection is different. All irrelevant. The commonality is that there is a death and a resurrection. Everything else is a mixture of syncretized ideas from the borrowing and borrowed cultures, to produce a new and unique god and myth.
Within the confines of what was then the Roman Empire, long before and during the dawn of Christianity, there were many dying-and-rising gods. And yes, they were gods—some even half-god, half-human, being of divine or magical parentage, just like Jesus (John 1:1-18; Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-35; Philippians 2:6-8 & Romans 8:3). And yes, they died. And were dead. And yes, they were then raised back to life; and lived on, even more powerful than before. Some returned in the same body they died in; some lived their second life in even more powerful and magical bodies than they died in, like Jesus did (1 Corinthians 15:35-50 & 2 Corinthians 5:1-10). Some left empty tombs or gravesites; or had corpses that were lost or vanished. Just like Jesus. Some returned to life on “the third day” after dying. Just like Jesus. All went on to live and reign in heaven (not on earth). Just like Jesus. Some even visited earth after being raised, to deliver a message to disciples or followers, before ascending into the heavens. Just like Jesus.
The Savior-God Mytheme
Not in ancient Asia. Or anywhere else. Only the West, from Mesopotamia to North Africa and Europe. There was a very common and popular mytheme that had arisen in the Hellenistic period—from at least the death of Alexander the Great in the 300s B.C. through the Roman period, until at least Constantine in the 300s A.D. Nearly every culture created and popularized one: the Egyptians had one, the Thracians had one, the Syrians had one, the Persians had one, and so on. The Jews were actually late to the party in building one of their own, in the form of Jesus Christ. It just didn’t become popular among the Jews, and thus ended up a Gentile religion. But if any erudite religious scholar in 1 B.C. had been asked “If the Jews invented one of these gods, what would it look like?” they would have described the entire Christian religion to a T. Before it even existed. That can’t be a coincidence.The general features most often shared by all these cults are (when we eliminate all their differences and what remains is only what they share in common):
- They are personal salvation cults (often evolved from prior agricultural cults).
- They guarantee the individual a good place in the afterlife (a concern not present in most prior forms of religion).
- They are cults you join membership with (as opposed to just being open communal religions).
- They enact a fictive kin group (members are now all brothers and sisters).
- They are joined through baptism (the use of water-contact rituals to effect an initiation).
- They are maintained through communion (regular sacred meals enacting the presence of the god).
- They involved secret teachings reserved only to members (and some only to members of certain rank).
- They used a common vocabulary to identify all these concepts and their role.
- They are syncretistic (they modify this common package of ideas with concepts distinctive of the adopting culture).
- They are mono- or henotheistic (they preach a supreme god by whom and to whom all other divinities are created and subordinate).
- They are individualistic (they relate primarily to salvation of the individual, not the community).
- And they are cosmopolitan (they intentionally cross social borders of race, culture, nation, wealth, or even gender).
- They are all “savior gods” (literally so-named and so-called).
- They are usually the “son” of a supreme God (or occasionally “daughter”).
- They all undergo a “passion” (a “suffering” or “struggle,” literally the same word in Greek, patheôn).
- That passion is often, but not always, a death (followed by a resurrection and triumph).
- By which “passion” (of whatever kind) they obtain victory over death.
- Which victory they then share with their followers (typically through baptism and communion).
- They also all have stories about them set in human history on earth.
- Yet so far as we can tell, none of them ever actually existed.
Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier Blogs
Easter this year lands most fittingly on April Fool’s Day. Because indeed, the resurrection of Jesus is akin to the greatest prank in history. Not because anyone actually faked it (though the evidence we have left, remains fully consistent with their having done so: see Robert Price’s chapter...
www.richardcarrier.info
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joelr
Well-Known Member
Carrier uses original sources only. Here is just one:
Osiris
Not only does Plutarch say Osiris returned to life and was recreated, exact terms for resurrection (anabiôsis and paliggenesia: On Isis and Osiris 35; see my discussion in The Empty Tomb, pp. 154-55), and also describe his physically returning to earth after his death (Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 19), but the physical resurrection of Osiris’s corpse is explicitly described in pre-Christian pyramid inscriptions! Osiris was also resurrected, according to Plutarch, on the “third day,” and died during a full moon, just like Christ: Passover occurs during the full moon; and in Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 39 and 42, Osiris dies on the 17th of Athyr, the concluding day of the full moon, and is raised on the 19th, two days later—thus three days inclusively, just like Jesus.Plutarch writes that “Osiris came to Horus from the other world and exercised and trained him for the battle,” and taught him lessons, and then “Osiris consorted with Isis after his death and she became the mother of Harpocrates.” It’s hard to get more explicit than that. Contrary to Ehrman, there is no mention of Osiris not being in his resurrected body at that point. To the contrary, every version of his myth has him revive only after Isis reassembles and reanimates his corpse. As Plutarch says, “the soul of Osiris is everlasting and imperishable, but his body Typhon oftentimes dismembers and causes to disappear, and that Isis wanders hither and yon in her search for it, and fits it together again” (On Isis and Osiris 54).
And indeed, carved on the walls of the pyramids centuries before Christianity began were the declarations of the goddess Isis (or Horus, or their agents), “I have come to thee…that I may revivify thee, that I may assemble for thee thy bones, that I may collect for thee thy flesh, that I may assemble for thee thy dismembered limbs…raise thyself up, king, [as for] Osiris; thou livest!” (Pyramid Texts 1684a-1685a and 1700, = Utterance 606; cf. Utterance 670); “Raise thyself up; shake off thy dust; remove the dirt which is on thy face; loose thy bandages!” (Pyramid Texts 1363a-b, = Utterance 553); “[As for] Osiris, collect thy bones; arrange thy limbs; shake off thy dust; untie thy bandages; the tomb is open for thee; the double doors of the coffin are undone for thee; the double doors of heaven are open for thee…thy soul is in thy body…raise thyself up!” (Pyramid Texts 207b-209a and 2010b-2011a, = Utterance 676). That sure sounds like a physical resurrection of Osiris’s body to me. (As even confirmed by the most recent translation of James P. Allen, cf. pp. 190, 224-25, 272. The spells he clarifies are sung to and about the resident Pharaoh, but in the role of Osiris, receiving the same resurrection as Osiris, e.g. “there has been done for me what was done for my father Osiris on the day of tying bones together, of making functional the feet,” “do for him that which you did for his brother Osiris on the day,” etc.)
Plutarch goes on to explicitly state that this resurrection on earth (set in actual earth history) in the same body he died in (reassembled and restored to life) was the popular belief, promoted in allegorical tales by the priesthood—as was also the god’s later descent to rule Hades. But the secret “true” belief taught among the initiated priesthood was that Osiris becomes incarnate, dies, and rises back to life every year in a secret cosmic battle in the sublunar heavens. So in fact, contrary to Ehrman (who evidently never actually read any of the sources on this point), Plutarch says the belief that Osiris went to Hades was false (On Isis and Osiris 78); and yet even in that “public” tale, Osiris rules in Hades in his old body of flesh, restored to life. Hence still plainly resurrected. But as Plutarch explains (On Isis and Osiris 25-27 & 54 and 58), the esoteric truth was that the god’s death and resurrection occurs in sublunar space, after each year descending and taking on a mortal body to die in; and that event definitely involved coming back to life in a new superior body, in which Osiris ascends to a higher realm to rule from above, all exactly as was said of the risen Jesus (who no more remained on earth than Osiris did). The only difference is that when importing this into Judaism, which had not a cyclical-eternal but a linear-apocalyptic conception of theological history, they converted the god’s dying-and-rising to a singular apocalyptic event.
And that’s just Osiris. Clearly raised from the dead in his original, deceased body, restored to life; visiting people on earth in his risen body; and then ruling from heaven above. And that directly adjacent to Judea, amidst a major Jewish population in Alexandria, and popular across the whole empire. But as Plutarch said in On the E at Delphi 9, many religions of his day “narrate deaths and vanishings, followed by returns to life and resurrections.” Not just that one. Plutarch names Dionysus as but an example (and by other names “Zagreus, Nyctelius, and Isodaetes“). And we know for a fact this Dionysus wasn’t the only example Plutarch would have known. Plutarch only names him because he was so closely associated with Osiris, and the most famous.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Just look at the entry on Hellenistic religion in Brit: it's exactly the NT narrative.
Dr Miller and Dr Litwa have new works on demonstrating Jesus is a Greek deity, no doubt.
BTW a demigod is - "the offspring of a god and a mortal,"
Which is EXACTLY WHAT JESUS IS. Zeus impregnated a mortal woman and made Hercules. Yahweh made Mary pregnant and made Jesus.
Both are Demigods.
Hellenistic religion | Ancient Greek Gods, Rituals & Beliefs | Britannica
Hellenistic religion, any of the various systems of beliefs and practices of eastern Mediterranean peoples from 300 bc to ad 300. The period of Hellenistic influence, when taken as a whole, constitutes one of the most creative periods in the history of religions. It was a time of spiritual
-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.
-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.
-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.
-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme
-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.
-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)
-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century
- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.
-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.
-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)
-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)
- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and Roman philosophic missionaries
Also, Martyr admitted it as well-
Justin Martyr, The Dialogue with Trypho,
Chapter 69. The devil, since he emulates the truth, has invented fables about Bacchus, Hercules, and Æsculapius
Justin: Be well assured, then, Trypho, that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by [Jupiter's] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and travelled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated? And when he [the devil] brings forward Æsculapius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? But since I have not quoted to you such Scripture as tells that Christ will do these things, I must necessarily remind you of one such: from which you can understand, how that to those destitute of a knowledge of God, I mean the Gentiles, who, 'having eyes, saw not, and having a heart, understood not,' worshipping the images of wood, [how even to them] Scripture prophesied that they would renounce these [vanities], and hope in this Christ. It is thus written:.......
Chapter 70. So also the mysteries of Mithras are distorted from the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah
And when I hear, Trypho, that Perseus was begotten of a virgin, I understand that the deceiving serpent counterfeited also this........
Yeah, and his excuse??? THE DEVIL DID IT!!!!!!!!!!! Well that apologetic didn't age well. But the confession remains. Jesus = Greek demigods. So closely that Martyr had to say the DEVIL did it. I don't hear anything about it's a "big lie", in fact the devil seemed to get it so similar that Justin has many (probably many more) exact examples. No, it's true, Jesus is a Greek deity. The devil planned it. So he has time travel? Hmm, that raises many questions that Martyr didn't really think through. But, he had to say something because people were clearly like "yes, we have heard this all before"........
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is false.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Some people believe the Earth is flat. Belief isn't truth, you need evidence.
If you won't listen to the leading Biblical archaeologist then you simply don't care about what is true. You care about what you want to be true.
William Dever, Professor Emeritus of the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years and authored almost as many books on the subject.
NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Archeology of the Hebrew Bible | PBS
In this article, archaeologist and biblical scholar William Dever discusses how archeology can offer vivid insights into the biblical world.
www.pbs.org
Now some small details are contested by archaeologists but what he's saying is the basic consensus in the field.