Christians: Is marriage between a man and a woman?

[Windwalker]

Firstly, issues of love don't involve homosexuality because the practice was
scarcely recognized in the OT, and largely associated with Roman and Grecian
times.

Why on earth would two human beings choose to spend their lives together if not for love? Obviously love expresses itself in many forms. The entirely of Creation is an expression of God's Love, period. It is found in all life, from trees and the sky, from the animals of the field, to human hearts in compassion, empathy, respect, and commitment to support and uphold one another. I am talking love here.

If you love the wrong things, it is evil. Yes.

I don't know how is is possible to love the wrong things. I think you must mean another word than love. Perhaps you are thinking of desire or lust? I'm talking about Agape love, or Divine love, not the mentality of a child who "loves his bicycle", but shouldn't love dangerous objects like broken glass.

That's not love in my book. That is attractions and attachments. And yes, we need to discriminate between helpful and useful things, and dangerous things. That has nothing to do with the love that a person has in their heart for another person. "Love is the fulfilling of the law", says Paul in Hebrews. If you truly love, then you choose the good - always. "Love works no evil". Again, this is the entire theme of the NT.

Not sure what 'good is never bad' means. Sorry.

Saying love can be evil, is like saying "bad-good". It's an oxymoron.

In the bible homosexuals were simply killed. No
question about that.

Would you support that OT practice today? Would you celebrate the stoning to death of homosexuals? Do you feel that reflects God's Grace? Would you stone your own child if he spoke up to you and said, "I'm gay"? What if your father or mother told you they were? Remember, I said suppression of love is what is in fact evil. Would you stop loving them? What if you yourself were, or had those feelings from time to time? Would you stop loving yourself?

I see homosexuality in the same vein as adultery,
divorce, pederasty, polygamy etc..

You do? You view consentual sex between adults the same thing as child rape, against the will of a child? I think you may wish to look at that. You really are afraid of this aren't you? So Alan and Tom holding hands and telling each other they love each other as they dream of their lives together, is the same as them raping children? This is very extreme. Why so much personal revulsion? Does it threaten you somehow?

you can easily love the wrong person, or persons.

It is absolutely not possible to love the wrong person. You are supposed to love all people. It's Jesus' command for you to do. This appears a good place for you to start.

And loving porn? Everyone loves it now.

You cannot "love porn", since porn isn't alive. Pornongraphy is the objectifying of human sexuality. Objectifying others is selfish, and is not love. Love embraces the other as yourself, and you become one with them. That's how God loves.

It seems you are very confused with what Love is, from a Christian perspective. Jesus is not talking about 'loving a popsicle' or your bike, or dangerous sports activities. Christian love is about genuine heartfelt connections with others. What you are talking about is not at that level at all. You're talking about "loving as the world loves", not as Jesus loves.

 

[Windwalker]

What I said is and in other words, "Your past life is irrelevant when you come to Jesus. And. God is able to change you when you accept him.

God changes everyone who is opened to God. That happens naturally. It's not force-fed into you via some "pray the gay away" nonsense. The change is not one's sexual orientation, but their authenticity. If a gay man truly loves another man, then his transformed heart will deepen that love, not make him lose that love!

Coming to God will not change hetrosexuals into celebates, or asexuals, nor should you expect it will it change a homosexual into a hetrosexual. That is all nonsense made up by the religious who suppress their own sexual tendencies, which are as varied in shades and nuances, like the shades of a rainbow.

It has been found, and makes perfectly reasonable sense, that those who express the most discomfort with homosexuality, typically struggle with their own sexuality in these areas and are actively repressing and denying it to themselves on a subconscious level. Hence they demonize it and then actively fight against it in others in order to keep themselves from looking at it in themselves and acknowledging it. The demon is of their own creation, in other words. It's really just their own inner battle on display projected onto the canvas of others.

When I hear these sorts of irrationalities against gays, I hear men who are struggling with a deep conflict within themselves. When we hate someone else, we are really just showing the world we are hating ourselves. If anything, we should pray the self-hate away. Then we are free of that, and can now truly love others as ourselves, as Jesus commands. But not until then.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 19:1-13 - King James Version
People often challenge Christians to demonstrate what Jesus said against same same marriage. My general assumption is that He said nothing in favor of it. The point is not to be unlike Christ, but to convey the information, and let people decide how to live. In the preceeding link, Jesus refers to marriage between a man and a woman, as was the religious opinion of most Jews in His day.
This: Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5:22-33 - King James Version link also shows marriage between a man and a woman. The husband is shown as the head of the wife, with Christ as the Head of the Christian Church.
Another link, shown here: Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 3:1-7 - King James Version demonstrates that the wife is to obey the husband. Who does the obeying in a gay relationship?
Conclusion, I personally believe marriage is between a man and a woman, but I am not here to force my religious beliefs on anyone, just to convey Scripture and its meaning.

What sort of marriage? Secular legal marriage as recognised by the state? Religious marriage as recognised by Christians? How about religious marriage as practiced by NON Christians? Do they get a say? How about common law marriages? Your original question is over broad.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Firstly, issues of love don't involve homosexuality because the practice was
scarcely recognized in the OT, and largely associated with Roman and Grecian
times.
If you love the wrong things, it is evil. Yes.
Not sure what 'good is never bad' means. Sorry.
In the bible homosexuals were simply killed. No question about that.
I see homosexuality in the same vein as adultery, divorce, pederasty, polygamy etc..
With these you can easily love the wrong person, or persons.
And loving porn? Everyone loves it now. It's grown another 5% in popularity in the
last 12 months.
My REAL ISSUE with homosexuality is the lies. People said decriminalizing homo-
sexuality wouldn't lead to gay marriage and teaching it in schools. Wrong. Last year
in Australia people said legalizing gay marriage won't lead to loss of religious freedom.
Wrong. So what am I ultimately going to have to give up for gays, and transsexuals,
and pederasts and the like?

You are talking utter nonsense. Again.

"and largely associated with Roman... times "

Historically false.

"My REAL ISSUE with homosexuality is the lies. People said decriminalizing homo-
sexuality wouldn't lead to gay marriage and teaching it in schools."

Homosexuality isn't "taught in schools", whatever than is even supposed to mean.

"in Australia people said legalizing gay marriage won't lead to loss of religious freedom.
Wrong."

Baloney. No one has lost any religious freedom, especially not you. Stop clutching your pearls.

"So what am I ultimately going to have to give up for gays, and transsexuals,
and pederasts and the like?"

Equating homosexuals and transexuals with pederasts is a blatant, unChristian slur. Stop it. And you haven't given up anything, so stop trying to claim persecution where none exists.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

God did not put Adam and Steve in the garden and tell them to be fruitful and multiply.

Oh, so you want people to only have families on the Adam and Eve paradigm? People with no mother or father raising generations of inbred offspring? No? Maybe quit with that tired "Adam and Steve" platitude, then.

 

[Kenny]

God changes everyone who is opened to God. That happens naturally. It's not force-fed into you via some "pray the gay away" nonsense. The change is not one's sexual orientation, but their authenticity. If a gay man truly loves another man, then his transformed heart will deepen that love, not make him lose that love!
.

I've never advocated not loving. I love a lot of men with a deep love. But it has nothing to do with sex.

.

Coming to God will not change hetrosexuals into celebates, or asexuals, nor should you expect it will it change a homosexual into a hetrosexual. That is all nonsense made up by the religious who suppress their own sexual tendencies, which are as varied in shades and nuances, like the shades of a rainbow.
.

That's like saying, "I was murderer and I can't change" or "I was a womanizer and adulterer and I'll never be able to be something else.

For those who have had the life change would disagree with your position.

.

It has been found, and makes perfectly reasonable sense, that those who express the most discomfort with homosexuality, typically struggle with their own sexuality in these areas and are actively repressing and denying it to themselves on a subconscious level. Hence they demonize it and then actively fight against it in others in order to keep themselves from looking at it in themselves and acknowledging it. The demon is of their own creation, in other words. It's really just their own inner battle on display projected onto the canvas of others.
.

I would agree with you. So, is your demon the Christian faith?

.

When I hear these sorts of irrationalities against gays, I hear men who are struggling with a deep conflict within themselves. When we hate someone else, we are really just showing the world we are hating ourselves. If anything, we should pray the self-hate away. Then we are free of that, and can now truly love others as ourselves, as Jesus commands. But not until then.

I agree wholeheartedly!! We should pray away all hate and love others as ourselves.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This tired subject again? This and abortion are the two most worn out topics, as if there isn't more important issues. Very strange.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Oh, so you want people to only have families on the Adam and Eve paradigm? People with no mother or father raising generations of inbred offspring? No? Maybe quit with that tired "Adam and Steve" platitude, then.

What does wanting God's plan for families have to do with people with no mother or father raising inbred children? If everyone followed God's plan there would be no children without parents. And if every child had a loving mother and father there would be a lot less problems. I am pretty sure this is the paradigm reccommended by the Catholic church. As well as most other religions.

 

[PruePhillip]

So the right to discriminate is the right you're worried about losing? I'm not sure that's a right at all .Just something you've been allowed to do in the past when you shouldn't have been.

Think it through.
Instead of, say, a church worshiping and teaching its doctrines in time honored, time
tested freedoms we have:
1 - Court action against a priest for distributing literature on the RCC family point of
view (Tasmania 2017)
2 - Gay lobbyists targeting a company because a board member belonged to a
Christian church which supported the No-vote for gay marriage (2017)
3 - Action against religious schools for discrimination against pro-gay teachers.

In these three above we see things happening which the gay movement declared
would never happen, just,oh... 12 months ago.
1 - freedom of speech
2 - freedom of commerce
3 - freedom of association and the right to teach religious values in schools.

And this is what worries me the most - this list is just the beginning. And not just
a gay list, it will be a total cultural Marxist, deconstructionist, post-modernist, anti-
Capitalist, anti-freedom fascist list.

 

[PruePhillip]

This tired subject again? This and abortion are the two most worn out topics, as if there isn't more important issues. Very strange.

It's interesting. The cultural left win an argument and then declare it's "tired" and need not be
discussed again.
Reminds me of the Republican movement in Australia, Scottish Independence and the recent
Canadian/Quebec issue. WE WILL ASK FOR NEW VOTES UNTIL WE WIN THE VOTE, THEN
THERE WILL BE NO MORE VOTES.

And that applies to killing children, too.

 

[masonlandry]

Think it through.
Instead of, say, a church worshiping and teaching its doctrines in time honored, time
tested freedoms we have:
1 - Court action against a priest for distributing literature on the RCC family point of
view (Tasmania 2017)
2 - Gay lobbyists targeting a company because a board member belonged to a
Christian church which supported the No-vote for gay marriage (2017)
3 - Action against religious schools for discrimination against pro-gay teachers.

In these three above we see things happening which the gay movement declared
would never happen, just,oh... 12 months ago.
1 - freedom of speech
2 - freedom of commerce
3 - freedom of association and the right to teach religious values in schools.

And this is what worries me the most - this list is just the beginning. And not just
a gay list, it will be a total cultural Marxist, deconstructionist, post-modernist, anti-
Capitalist, anti-freedom fascist list.

Those aren't consequences of being gay or even of gay marriage being legal. Those are consequences of a post-modernist political movement. The argument is a post hoc ergo proctor hoc argument. This happened then that happened, so this must have caused that.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

What does wanting God's plan for families have to do with people with no mother or father raising inbred children? If everyone followed God's plan there would be no children without parents. And if every child had a loving mother and father there would be a lot less problems. I am pretty sure this is the paradigm reccommended by the Catholic church. As well as most other religions.

Adam and Eve didn't have parents, and their children were related, so their grand children were inbred. Your move.

 

[PruePhillip]

Those aren't consequences of being gay or even of gay marriage being legal. Those are consequences of a post-modernist political movement. The argument is a post hoc ergo proctor hoc argument. This happened then that happened, so this must have caused that.

True, in part. I wonder how many gays actually sympathize with our
post-modernist, screaming snowflakes. But if so they could be
unwittingly providing cultural Marxism with its causes.
Marxism is about tribalism and cause pushing. This is how Lenin
explained it must be - occupy the issues.
I find myself not fighting gays (some of whom are my friends, even
in my own family) but the people who exploit them. And giving in on
one point-of-gayness isn't giving in to gays but the Marxists who are
exploiting them.
And this is how Marxists have FINALLY been able to effectively fight
the churches - by using gay issues.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Marxism is about tribalism and cause pushing.

The irony.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's interesting. The cultural left win an argument and then declare it's "tired" and need not be
discussed again.
Reminds me of the Republican movement in Australia, Scottish Independence and the recent
Canadian/Quebec issue. WE WILL ASK FOR NEW VOTES UNTIL WE WIN THE VOTE, THEN
THERE WILL BE NO MORE VOTES.

And that applies to killing children, too.

*Clicks ignore*

 

[Windwalker]

I've never advocated not loving. I love a lot of men with a deep love. But it has nothing to do with sex.

So for you it is okay if there is no sex involved? What about two men holding hands, or kissing? As a Christian, I am sure you have no problem with a young boy and a girl holding hands, or kissing, but no sex as long as they aren't married, right? Do you apply that same standard of love then to men with men, as long as they don't touch each other's junk and do all that sex stuff?

You see, I believe underlying this is a personal phobia, not common sense.

.
That's like saying, "I was murderer and I can't change" or "I was a womanizer and adulterer and I'll never be able to be something else.

Being attracted naturally to those of the same gender is not at all the same as violating another's will, or breaking commitments with those you have established relationships with. Those are entirely different cases. You cannot equate them on the same level at all.

For those who have had the life change would disagree with your position.

Why is it I am highly doubtful they have been "cured"? Conformity causes a lot of gay men into denial, or go on anti-gay crusades in order to not face the truth of themselves which is found in conflicts with the discriminations against gays that are inherent in our culture, which you yourself are unwittingly guilty of propagating. Being rejected by the tribe, is a primal fear and can easily lead someone into denying their our authentic selves.

I would agree with you. So, is your demon the Christian faith?

No, not at all. I more than relate my faith to the Christian faith. Just not a fundamentalists interpretation of it. There's not enough Love found in there to satisfy my love for God.

.
I agree wholeheartedly!! We should pray away all hate and love others as ourselves.

Amen.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Adam and Eve didn't have parents, and their children were related, so their grand children were inbred. Your move.

No move needed. We are talking about today. Things were different thousands of years ago. Obviously if there are only two people in the world there are going to be some differences. God started with two people ( one male and one female) and wanted them to form families of one man and one women to raise children. Today there are too many unwed parents and children in broken homes. This is not what God wanted. Then you throw in two men or two women trying to have children and the problems multiply.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

No move needed. We are talking about today. Things were different thousands of years ago.

Then don't use "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" as an argument against gay people. We are talking about today. Things were different thousands of years ago.

Care to try again?

Then you throw in two men or two women trying to have children and the problems multiply.

Your complete failure to provide any support for this claim is noted.

 

[Kenny]

So for you it is okay if there is no sex involved? What about two men holding hands, or kissing? As a Christian, I am sure you have no problem with a young boy and a girl holding hands, or kissing, but no sex as long as they aren't married, right? Do you apply that same standard of love then to men with men, as long as they don't touch each other's junk and do all that sex stuff?

You see, I believe underlying this is a personal phobia, not common sense.

I haven't mentioned any phobias although I am sure there are those who do have them. There are many cultures where men kiss men such as Middle Eastern people.

Does any of the above make someone a homosexual?

Being attracted naturally to those of the same gender is not at all the same as violating another's will, or breaking commitments with those you have established relationships with. Those are entirely different cases. You cannot equate them on the same level at all.

Oh, but I can, because it matches what you said.

Why is it I am highly doubtful they have been "cured"? Conformity causes a lot of gay men into denial, or go on anti-gay crusades in order to not face the truth of themselves which is found in conflicts with the discriminations against gays that are inherent in our culture, which you yourself are unwittingly guilty of propagating. Being rejected by the tribe, is a primal fear and can easily lead someone into denying their our authentic selves.

When have I mentioned "cured"? Is it a disease? To me it sounds like you have an issue.

I don't agree with discrimination. Sounds like you are unwittingly guilty of propagating a Christian phobia. If I discriminated based on ones decision to have sex with the same gender, I would also have to discriminate if someone lied, if someone hates, if someone committed adultery. Where would it end?

Have you ever heard of "not casting stones unless you are sinless"?

 

[Windwalker]

I haven't mentioned any phobias although I am sure there are those who do have them. There are many cultures where men kiss men such as Middle Eastern people.

Does any of the above make someone a homosexual?

I'm not talking a kissing of greeting or friendship. I specifically asked about holding hands and kissing each other romantically, instead of Jim and Karen on a date together where no sex is involved, it is Jim and Alan doing the same thing. I'm talking dating, not hanging out with friends. Point blank, are you OK with romantic love between two men, or two women, as long as they don't have sex? It's just the sex part that is bad? That is what you indicated was the case, that it is okay for them to love each other, so long as there is no sex involved.

So yes, based upon this obvious double standard you have created, there is no real justifiable basis for it, which makes it based on fears instead. You are in effect saying it is not okay for love to be felt and shared between two people of the same sex, like the other poster imagines that it is somehow possible to love the "wrong person", if such a thing were actually a possibility to begin with. Love is only okay within the bounds of cultural acceptance, correct? That sort of idea of love, is not God's idea of it.

Oh, but I can, because it matches what you said.

You honestly believe gay sex is at the same level as murder, rape, and adultery? It's purely consensual. How does it equate? Explain rationally.

When have I mentioned "cured"? Is it a disease? To me it sounds like you have an issue.

The only issue I have is with ignorance, such as believing finding God makes you not gay. That's like saying finding God makes you a foot taller than you were when you were just your average sinner.

I don't agree with discrimination. Sounds like you are unwittingly guilty of propagating a Christian phobia.

I don't have a phobia of Christianity. I have a dislike of the abuse of it, hiding cultural biases behind the name of Love. I have a dislike of religious hypocrisy, which is exactly the same attitude Jesus had towards it. Count me in there with Jesus flipping over the tables of the money changers who pollute Truth with their own self-interests calling it God.

If I discriminated based on ones decision to have sex with the same gender, I would also have to discriminate if someone lied, if someone hates, if someone committed adultery. Where would it end?

Two people who love each other and share a bonded relationship is not the same as dishonesty, hatred, or infidelity. Let me ask you this pointed question, if you met God face to face, do you think you could convince him of this, like you are trying to convince yourself it is?

Where it ends, is Love. Dropping your biases and fears, and seeing Love as it is. "Love works no ill," "Love is the fulfilling of the law". It ends by accepting Truth.

Have you ever heard of "not casting stones unless you are sinless"?

Most certainly I have. I'm not casting stones. I'm not condemning. I'm educating. I'm illuminating the error of these fallacious and misguiding views about the expression of love in homosexual relationships. Your ignorance is forgivable. There is no condemnation. Just a call to a higher state of mind and reason and love.

BTW, not that this matters, but in case you think I'm just defending this because I must be gay, you would be wrong. I'm purely heterosexual, and have been married previously and have been in a partnership with a wonderful woman for the past 18 years. I've never had any gay experiences in my life, and no personal interest in it for myself. I just see others as equal in their love for their partners too.

I see people as people, with all their individualities. To me, I'm only defending the truth of Love, against religious hypocrisies which proclaims love, and then denies it by making it conditional to some artificial standard. "Otherism" is not of Christ.