Cooky
Veteran Member
The Church is above the scripture.
...The Church cannot wander from the properly interpreted gospel though. It's impossible. God is not a hypocrite, having control of both.
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Christians: Is Sola Scriptura Biblical?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
The Church is above the scripture.
...The Church cannot wander from the properly interpreted gospel though. It's impossible. God is not a hypocrite, having control of both.
"By scripture alone" is what the Bible itself teaches.....everything Jesus said and did that was important enough to record, is there for our instruction, as the apostle Paul said.....read it again..... "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
When he said that, there was only the Hebrew Scriptures available...but for us as Christians we have the complete Word of God.....including the Greek Scriptures......its all Scripture...all inspired.
You mean "the Church" that doesn't resemble Christianity in any way?
"The Church" whose doctrines are not found in the Bible? These are guided by holy spirit? Really?The holy spirit does not back a disobedient church who is more concerned with man-made traditions and being 'friends with the world', than in "doing the will of the Father". (James 4:4; Matthew 7:21-23)
You can believe them if you wish....but they have no credibility because of their appalling history, IMO.
Established by the Church Fathers, and the authors and editors of the Bible. .
Churches do wander into many conflicting and contradictory divisions. God apparently has not control over this.
Cooky
Veteran Member
It's strikingly similar to the language barriers that occurred at the Tower of Babel.
...When people didn't do what God wanted.
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Cooky
Veteran Member
Except Catholicism also recognizes the Holy Scripture... But the Church *also* posseses, through the Holy Spirit, the wisdom to understand God's New Covenant:
2 Cor 3:5-18
"5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life..."
"
You mean "the Church" that doesn't resemble Christianity in any way?
The holy spirit does not back a disobedient church who is more concerned with man-made traditions and being 'friends with the world', than in "doing the will of the Father". (James 4:4; Matthew 7:21-23)
You can believe them if you wish....but they have no credibility because of their appalling history, IMO.
More anecdotal nonsense.
What's worse, though, is modern denominations claiming to know better than God's Holy Spirit, who was prophesied by Jesus at least 90 to 126 times in the bible, who guides and protects Gods Holy Church, and who was present during the penning of the bible.
At the same time, I can point out Sola Scriptura based Protestant churches that actively proclaim the opposite of what Jesus taught...
...The letter kills.
Westboro Baptist Church - Wikipedia
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And the Church has been at this for almost 2000 years, and this includes myriads of documents from the early Church to help explain certain matters.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
As someone who believes in The Book of Mormon as another witness of Jesus Christ I find this topic interesting. Usually my Christian friends who are concerned for my soul’s welfare try to explain to prove to me that anything outside of the Bible is categorically false.
I’m not interested in playing the us versus them game of who’s right. But I still enjoy the refreshingly open minded thinkers here who can look at a topic and come to a reasonable conclusion of their own (rather than parroting the position their church tells them I take).
I wait anxiously for the day when we all come in a unity of Christ.
Love your brother in Christ, David.
I’m not interested in playing the us versus them game of who’s right. But I still enjoy the refreshingly open minded thinkers here who can look at a topic and come to a reasonable conclusion of their own (rather than parroting the position their church tells them I take).
I wait anxiously for the day when we all come in a unity of Christ.
Love your brother in Christ, David.
I wait patiently for the day we all evolve into a spiritual united beyond all the individual religions and churches in human history.
If “the church” you speak of has blood on their hands, it does not, and never has had God’s Holy Spirit.
God told his disobedient people....
Isaiah 1:15....
“And when you spread out your palms,
I hide my eyes from you.
Although you offer many prayers,
I am not listening;
Your hands are filled with blood.”
IMO, after 47 years of research and study, the Roman Catholic Church is a fusion of weak, apostate Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship. The Roman Emperor who set up his “Universal” (Catholic) religion and imposed it on his subjects was not a Christian, but a worshipper of Zeus. He superimposed the worship of Zeus onto Jesus Christ, making him into God Almighty. He kept all their pagan festivals, but just changed the names. Are you celebrating Christmas? Do you know it’s origins? The northern hemisphere customs are all pagan....even the date is linked to a false god. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
Looking at Catholic art we see images of Zeus masquerading as Jesus, whose appearance is not described anywhere in scripture, for the simple reason that imagery was forbidden. “The Catholic Church” is full of images. (Exodus 20:4)
Mary is viewed by many as more important the Jesus....and because they believe that ‘Jesus is God’, his Father rarely rates a mention, except in the “Our Father” prayer which is parroted off as if Jesus told his disciples to repeat it endlessly.....he didn’t.
The power gained by the church, did what power always does....it thoroughly corrupts men, and then add wealth to that power and you have a recipe for tyranny. The history of the Roman Church is shameful in what it did to those who dared to question its unchristian doctrines and practices. Torture and forced confessions as a means to murder innocent people is why Jesus Christ never set foot in apostate Christianity at all. Google the Spanish Inquisition.
The ‘mother’ church spawned many daughters and collectively, I see these are the ones described in Matthew 7:21-23 offering their weak excuses to their judge. When Jesus says “I never knew you”.....he means he has never recognised “the Church” as his own.....nor any of the daughters who closely resemble their mother.
As one who obeyed Revelation 18:4-5, I removed myself from that disgusting counterfeit and severed all ties with it....so, I beg all who can see through the monstrous charade that claims to be “Christianity”, to act quickly as these last days draw to a close. Soon, I believe, it will be too late.
Jesus said it would be “just like the days of Noah”, filled with violence and immorality...and no one taking notice of the warning sounded by God’s messengers. (Matthew 7:21-23)
What is anecdotal about the truth?
You have to do a lot of denying to defend the actions, beliefs and practices of your church.
You do understand that apostasy was foretold and that it took place just as Jesus and the apostles said it would....what you describe as “God’s Holy Church” was never “holy” from its inception. It is the product of the foretold apostasy. Christ was never in the building. How could he have ever condoned the atrocities and bloodshed? He would have been appalled at the use of his name connected to all of that!
Good grief...if these people believe that they are representing Jesus then they have another think coming....
So, I agree....the 'daughters' are not representing Christ either. Haters are not Christians.
God hates no one....he does however, hate what immoral people do, especially in criminal acts done in his name. To bring reproach on God is to denounce everything that Jesus taught. It would be disowning the very one whose life was sacrificed for them......disqualifying themselves from having its benefits applied to them.
We are to judge no one...that is Christ's job...our job is to preach the Kingdom......so who is doing that the way Jesus said to? (Matthew 10:11-14; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
We all have to decide what is truth for ourselves. How confident are you?
Cooky
Veteran Member
If “the church” you speak of has blood on their hands, it does not, and never has had God’s Holy Spirit.
God told his disobedient people....
Isaiah 1:15....
“And when you spread out your palms,
I hide my eyes from you.
Although you offer many prayers,
I am not listening;
Your hands are filled with blood.”
IMO, after 47 years of research and study, the Roman Catholic Church is a fusion of weak, apostate Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship. The Roman Emperor who set up his “Universal” (Catholic) religion and imposed it on his subjects was not a Christian, but a worshipper of Zeus. He superimposed the worship of Zeus onto Jesus Christ, making him into God Almighty. He kept all their pagan festivals, but just changed the names. Are you celebrating Christmas? Do you know it’s origins? The northern hemisphere customs are all pagan....even the date is linked to a false god. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
Looking at Catholic art we see images of Zeus masquerading as Jesus, whose appearance is not described anywhere in scripture, for the simple reason that imagery was forbidden. “The Catholic Church” is full of images. (Exodus 20:4)
Mary is viewed by many as more important the Jesus....and because they believe that ‘Jesus is God’, his Father rarely rates a mention, except in the “Our Father” prayer which is parroted off as if Jesus told his disciples to repeat it endlessly.....he didn’t.
The power gained by the church, did what power always does....it thoroughly corrupts men, and then add wealth to that power and you have a recipe for tyranny. The history of the Roman Church is shameful in what it did to those who dared to question its unchristian doctrines and practices. Torture and forced confessions as a means to murder innocent people is why Jesus Christ never set foot in apostate Christianity at all. Google the Spanish Inquisition.
The ‘mother’ church spawned many daughters and collectively, I see these are the ones described in Matthew 7:21-23 offering their weak excuses to their judge. When Jesus says “I never knew you”.....he means he has never recognised “the Church” as his own.....nor any of the daughters who closely resemble their mother.
As one who obeyed Revelation 18:4-5, I removed myself from that disgusting counterfeit and severed all ties with it....so, I beg all who can see through the monstrous charade that claims to be “Christianity”, to act quickly as these last days draw to a close. Soon, I believe, it will be too late.
Jesus said it would be “just like the days of Noah”, filled with violence and immorality...and no one taking notice of the warning sounded by God’s messengers. (Matthew 7:21-23)
What is anecdotal about the truth?
You have to do a lot of denying to defend the actions, beliefs and practices of your church.
You do understand that apostasy was foretold and that it took place just as Jesus and the apostles said it would....what you describe as “God’s Holy Church” was never “holy” from its inception. It is the product of the foretold apostasy. Christ was never in the building. How could he have ever condoned the atrocities and bloodshed? He would have been appalled at the use of his name connected to all of that!
Good grief...if these people believe that they are representing Jesus then they have another think coming....
So, I agree....the 'daughters' are not representing Christ either. Haters are not Christians.
God hates no one....he does however, hate what immoral people do, especially in criminal acts done in his name. To bring reproach on God is to denounce everything that Jesus taught. It would be disowning the very one whose life was sacrificed for them......disqualifying themselves from having its benefits applied to them.
We are to judge no one...that is Christ's job...our job is to preach the Kingdom......so who is doing that the way Jesus said to? (Matthew 10:11-14; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
We all have to decide what is truth for ourselves. How confident are you?
I'm sure continuing our conversation will bear no fruit. I'm not budging, and I'm sure you're not either. I'll see you next time we meet, Deeje.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I do not agree with "The Church is above the scripture." in fact I think allot of what Jesus told the pharisees about setting aside the word of God for tradition would apply
Not to mention... but I will... Paul recommended as a safeguard to apostasy , saying:
Acts 20:32
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I do agree that Jesus said "I will build my church" but the churches in Revelation seems to do a bit of wandering and Jesus walking among them took various actions.
Scott C.
Just one guy
Somebody please tell me that Jesus was not an advocate of “by scripture alone”...? How many times did he say...”it is written”.
How many times did Jesus and his apostles quote scripture?
If we don’t base our beliefs on scripture, then whose ideas are we advocating?
We should advocate the ideas that God reveals to prophets/revelators. Sola Scriptura assumes the scriptural canon is closed and God will never reveal additional truth (i.e., additional scripture to the world). Sola Scritura also assumes that the Bible, as currently constructed and translated, is infallible. Sola Scritura teaches that there are no ancient textual revelations from God to man, of great value to us, which are not included in today's Protestant Bible. I may be mistaken on this, but I believe Jehova's Witnesses have their own translation of the Bible, which differs from typical Protestant Bibles such as the King James Version. I believe that to many Protestants, the Jehovah's witness Bible contradicts Sola Scriptura since it is different from what they consider to be the whole, complete, and infallible version of the Bible. As a Latter-day Saint, it's probably obvious that I believe there are scriptures outside of the Bible, such as the Book of Mormon. I see all of these as valid scripture and as important. But Sola Scriptura advocates would say the Book of Mormon can't be scripture if for no other reason, it's outside of the accepted canon of what they consider to be all revelations which God wills that we have.
This true what the advocates of Sola Scriptura, but it is circular reasoning to conclude that Sola Scriptura is true.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
The scripture cannot be broken, as Jesus said, sounds infallible to me
God who cannot lie said... also sounds infallible
Jude's statement to "Contend earnestly for the faith which was delivered up to the saints" sounds complete as far as essential doctrines and sufficient godliness as does 2 Tim 3:16 where all scripture is "God breathed"
Scott C.
Just one guy
I must not be explaining something right. I don't believe in Sola Scriptura based on my understanding of what that means.
OK, but may answer stays the same. Actually the LDS can also believe in a form of Sola Scriptura, but not the same as in traditional Christianity, especially in the early years.
This would be the belief of those who consider the Bible as the literal word of God. I consider this view irrational, illogical, and totally an ancient context 2000 year sold.
I believe that the last prophet God sent into the world was his son, Jesus Christ, (Hebrews 1:1-2) whose teachings are all recorded for our instruction in the Bible....the product of holy spirit. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
Included among his teachings are the many references he made to the Hebrew scriptures. I have no doubt that God has preserved his word exactly as he wanted it preserved. Despite thousands of years and many attempts to destroy it, God has seen to it that all who are alive in this "time of the end" can read his word and make their decisions about who and what they worship....and why. There were no foretold additions from self-proclaimed prophets. The Bible is the complete word of God. It takes us from creation, to 1,000 years into the future.....what need is there for additions to it, especially when there is no mention of any prophets still to come after Jesus?
Many seem to have that opinion, but it is not based on fact, nor is it based on the opinion that the KJV is a superior translation...which exhibits many mistranslations biased towards Christendom's own doctrines.....the trinity, and hellfire being the most outstanding examples of this.
You are welcome to post what you believe are mistranslations from the NWT and we would be happy to discuss them and compare them with the KJV....?
This puts Mormons on a par with the Baha'i's IMV......each has a self-proclaimed prophet who wrote what is considered additional scripture.....but the apostle Paul's warning was...
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)
Mormons preach a gospel I have never heard of.
Your prophet is self-proclaimed.....other than the fact that he made his assertions and claims to have been visited by an angel (Moroni....take the "i" off
) and given 'golden plates'....what do you have by way of proof that anything he said or wrote is true? Why haven't the plates ever been produced? Archeologists have never found evidence of the cultures that Smith wrote about. And the Bible certainly never says anything about Jesus going anywhere after his resurrection except to pronounce judgment on the wicked spirits in prison (who were responsible for God bringing the flood of Noah's day)....and strengthening his apostles and disciples in the 40 days that he lingered before his ascension to heaven. All of his disciples were in the Middle east, not the Americas. Jesus himself said that he was sent only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"...there is no word about them being found on other continents....the Diaspora did not spread that far.
It is doubtful that these Lamanite and Nephite cultures ever existed and that Smith may have been delusional in his claims. How would you know?
You place a lot of faith in a man with no credentials.
Jesus backed up his claim as God's son and all the prophets of old had the credentials because all their prophesies came true.
What the BoM teaches is at odds with the Bible in so many areas....they are contradictory to say the least. But we are all permitted by God to choose what we will believe. I examined the Mormon Church's teachings when I left Christendom, thinking that perhaps they had what I was searching for.....but their teachings were so absurdly unbelievable, that I could not continue. I would have had to throw out my Bible and accept someone else's scripture......no thanks.