Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Right. a lot of church based "charity" is wasted on political and religious agendas of no real benefit to society.
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Christians: Is the Republican party God's party?
- Thread starter -Peacemaker-
- Start date
Right. a lot of church based "charity" is wasted on political and religious agendas of no real benefit to society.
work in progress
Well-Known Member
In principle, I'm hysterical about all think tanks, which were deliberately designed to distribute propaganda and swamp mainstream media with neo-conservative and neo-liberal talking points.
But I have the same objection to liberal think tanks like the George Soros- funded Center For American Progress. I agree with some of their arguments, and since Joe Romm has joined to run their environment section, I find that of value. But, when it comes to economics, the Keynsians at CAP keep yammering about the need for a bigger stimulus package, even though making it work all depends on the economy having the capacity for continued growth. With all the oxygen sucked out of the room by Friedman followers and Keynsians, any alternative theories, especially regarding the likely scenario that energy costs, resource depletion and environmental degradation are going to make any real economic growth impossible in the future -- just doesn't have a chance to get aired anywhere but the blogosphere.
Now, getting that out of the way, I am not especially concerned with whether conservatives or liberals are the most generous; but rather the misleading and self-serving slide rule that is used to measure this generosity. I can tell you from my experiences working as a volunteer for different charities, that a charitable organization is subject to frequent auditing and has to follow a restrictive list of expense claims to maintain their tax exempt status. For a church to lose their tax exempt status they have to run it up the flagpole and advertise their gross misappropriation of church funds before the hammer falls on them. The Governments and politicians are lot more nervous about taking on a church than they are with a secular charity. A clown like Kent Hovind doesn't go to jail until he openly declares that his crazy creation museum is all tax exempt, and doesn't even make payroll deductions on employees. Even some conservative churches, such as ones in Ohio that openly declared that they were going to violate the rules of church/state separation during the 2008 election campaign have not been prosecuted or lost their tax exempt status. The liberal churches that I am aware of, tend to be old line Protestant denominations, and have little besides their church buildings to waste money on.
The church one of my brothers belongs to expects ALL of the tithe go to their church...and it has to be the 10% flat tax, or it is not following the scriptural model that was called for to support the Levites and the Temple in Jerusalem.
You're lucky if you can include the Sierra Club as part of your tithe, and limit your total giving to 10%; because my brother's church puts the call out for "love offerings" besides the tithes collected...so they would certainly tell you that you can give whatever you want to the Sierra Club; but it comes from the money you have left, and not from our cut. Needless to say, they are typical for tithing churches, that build brand new church buildings in the suburbs, equipped with auditoriums that have state of the art audio and video equipment, plus their own school, a gymnasium, fitness club with their own swimming pool....stuff you don't find at the older, mainstream denominations that still have 150 year old buildings in the downtown core!
Alceste
Vagabond
This is from the same dishonest source?
Alceste
Vagabond
True enough. Somebody is funding Focus on the Family and Answers in Genesis. Propaganda and lobbying isn't cheap!
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Is it made up that Catholic Charities are bigger then protestant charities?
And Catholic Church is anything but liberal.
How about how Protestants destroy cultures and when they do missionary work, they like to only give it to protestants.
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Including Catholic Charities?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
His church is not the norm in mainstream America. There is a lot of diversity on that very topic, and besides that - there's no way for the church to enforce any sort of "flat tax" in the United States. Thank goodness.
There's nothing "lucky" about it. I've attended a wide variety of churches throughout the United States all my life and I would never even consider membership at one that insisted on mandating who I can donate money to. Nor have I ever heard a sermon (at any church I was a member of) mandating that ten percent of my income be given to the church.
I'm sure there are churches which do preach that, but your brother has complete freedom to worship wherever he wants, believe whatever he wants about tithing, and give money in any percentage to anyone he wants - and call it tithing or not.
That's my point - the study didn't define tithing as limited to what you put in the offering plate at church. As I stated, I call nearly ALL of my charitable giving "tithing" so if someone asked me how much I tithed last year, I would give them a figure which included donations to, say, The Boys and Girls Club or United Way.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Please back up your claim that the study is dishonest, with facts and sources.
Alceste
Vagabond
Are you denying he includes church offerings and tithes in his calculations, or denying that's not really charity?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Please back up your claim that the study is dishonest, with facts and sources.
If you can't do that, then it may be your OPINION that the study is dishonest, but it's just that - your opinion.
Conservatives give blood 18 percent more than liberals as well. If they do this with their own BLOOD, they're probably more generous with their charitable giving as well.
Who Gives and Who Doesn't? - ABC News
Alceste
Vagabond
First I need to know what about my opinion you are challenging. Here is my entire position, broken down into bite sized chunks:
1) He uses church donations in his calculation of charitable giving;
2) That's not charity;
3) Therefore his claims regarding financial donations are dishonest;
4) Therefore he can not be trusted to produce quality statistics;
5) Therefore I do not trust his calculations re. Blood donations.
Which part of this do you want backed up? (FYI, Only 1) actually needs backing up, being the factual claim on which the rest of my reasoning is supported)
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
The study has been analyzed and parsed and reviewed by people willing to put more research into it than either you or I, apparently. It's never been debunked, nor have the study methods been refuted successfully. When this story broke, it was big news, and even many liberals admitted that the study was well done and apparently accurate.
blackout
Violet.
That's only because people believe the line you just spouted there.
The american people VOTE THEMSELVES into a two party box
in keeping with (their) limited/limiting thinking.
Anyway, voting your conscience is THE most important thing. IMO.
Screw the old "you can't win" line.
If everybody just voted the closest to what they ACTUALLY want,
(ie, their conscience)
other parties WOULD win.
Small thinking also keeps people from realizing THEY are God,
doing the voting, and .. other stuff...
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Alceste
Vagabond
He did in fact use donations to church groups as part of his calculations - that is what some of those people who analyzed and parsed and reviewed his propaganda claim. Do you believe donations to the administration and upkeep of your church, or to the spreading of Christianithy qualify as "charity" (opinion), or do you believe that he did not include tithing in his calculations (factual claim)? It has to be one or the other, I need to know which it is before I can figure out whether you really need "evidence" in order to see the error of your ways, or whether reason will suffice.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
That's only because people believe the line you just spouted there.
The american people VOTE THEMSELVES into a two party box
in keeping with (their) limited/limiting thinking.
Anyway, voting your conscience is THE most important thing. IMO.
Screw the old "you can't win" line.
If everybody just voted the closest to what they ACTUALLY want,
(ie, their conscience)
other parties WOULD win.
Small thinking also keeps people from realizing THEY are God,
doing the voting, and .. other stuff...
Really it's more about how our political system is set up in the Constitution than anything else. The way the electoral college works has a lot to do with it. Countries that have alot of parties that are actually competitive (Brazil is a good example) just have their systems of who wins elections set up much differently.
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Gaura Priya
IRL
Why is it that we Canadians always get the stereotypes that Americans are always mixing together religion and politics?
work in progress
Well-Known Member
Because they are, perhaps! And since we now have conservatives that are using Republican advisers, they are trying to cultivate the same kind of theocratic base in Canada, while keeping it mostly below the radar, because our religious right is only about half the size as the American version.
work in progress
Well-Known Member
And, has been mentioned previously, it is also not a point worth debating, since a conservative who wants to gut services provided by government wouild have to give A LOT MORE in charity to make up the difference. How "charitable" is it for conservatives to gut services for the poor and make them totally dependent on how generous others happen to feel? And, I can tell you for a fact that raising money for charity is a lot harder in bad economic times whether it's coming from liberals or conservatives!
But, back to the thread topic that you are trying to derail: why are modern Christian fundamentalists glorifying wealth and calling for lower taxes and less government, as they ignore 90% of the Old and New Testament teachings that relate to economic issues?
Who gives the most to charity is a moot point. After all, to follow Jesus' commands, you are not supposed to tell anyone when you give to charity, anyway. It is supposed to be done in secret.
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Maybe Canadians are just not religious? It seems to be impossible to not be influenced by a life influencing thing, such as religion.