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Christians: Loving the Enemy?

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
I ran across this when I recently posted a reply to Scott in the same faith debates and found it rather interesting:

"Loving our enemies at the expense of our families and friends is not love; it is betrayal and treachery. "
by A.S.A. Jones

http://www.ex-atheist.com/love%20enemy.html


So Christians: Any thoughts?
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Moon Woman said:
I ran across this when I recently posted a reply to Scott in the same faith debates and found it rather interesting:

"Loving our enemies at the expense of our families and friends is not love; it is betrayal and treachery. "
by A.S.A. Jones

http://www.ex-atheist.com/love%20enemy.html


So Christians: Any thoughts?

I say Jesus knows best:

Matthew 5:43-46
43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
comprehend said:
I say Jesus knows best:

Matthew 5:43-46
43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

I am wondering, Comprehend, did you actually read the article or just the headline?? No one is arguing against loving our enemies. Is there anything you would like to address beyond the obvious?
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
LOVING THE ENEMY:

"Our country has air dropped food, medicine, and supplies to the citizens of countries who have declared themselves our enemies. We make every effort to spare civilians and limit our warfare to military targets. Our doctors treat the parents and children who are the unintentional casualties of our engaged troops, and we rebuild the cities we bomb. Even though we may see war as a dreaded necessity, we do not hate our enemies. As a Christian nation, we have been taught to 'love our enemies' and, as impossible as that may sound, we have succeeded.

There seems to be a misconception, in present day America, that we are supposed to love our enemies to death, even if it means our own death. But Jesus never instructed us to commit suicide en masse. Loving our enemies at the expense of our families and friends is not love; it is betrayal. Each day's unwillingness to act against our enemies, who are killing our allies, displays our treachery. Nowhere is this unwillingness to act more true than in the liberal camps.

In recent interviews, Benjamin Netanyahu attempted to explain Israel's position through an appeal to empathy. He implied that if rockets were landing in American cities, America would defend itself just as aggressively as Israel. I would like to think that would be true, but several rockets have already landed in America, killing 3,000 of us, and our response to fighting back has been anything but united, or impassioned. Some believe that it will take suicide bombings in our schools to provoke the complacent, but as long as those suicide bombings take place across town, in someone else's neighborhood, they will only be newspaper headlines to be read at the breakfast table. 9/11 has taught us a lesson. It has taught us that even though 3,000 fellow Americans can be slaughtered in a few minutes, our comfortable lives go on, uninterrupted and unchanged. It has taught us that our love for one another is a matter of superficial convenience. How easy it is to pretend that 9/11 didn't even happen.

Our tolerance has turned into apathy. Laziness and cowardice are masquerading as compassion for the enemy. It isn't that we have become enlightened and gained the ability to unconditionally love even those who cause murder and genocide; it's that we truly have lost the ability to love our friends, families and neighbors. We only love ourselves. We don't want war! We don't even want to think about it. A really big war might immediately, and directly affect us. We may have to make sacrifices! We may have to eat rice! We may have to budget! It's time for America to wake up and smell the beheaded corpses. Instead of focusing on loving the enemy, it's time to realize that you reap what you sow. America had better sow some nads, or it will be reaping Shariah law. Unfortunately, when faced with the prospect of Islamic victory, the only questions some will ask are, "Will there still be lattes? Will there still be Prada?"
Moral equivalency teaches us that our enemies are the same as us, but they are not. We will always show mercy to our enemies, even when we are strong enough to destroy them. Militant Islam will not be so kind."

*
John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
True love is always a sacrifice. We need to love those who hate us and even persecute us.

People like this truly buy into the the horror of WWJB. It's disgusting.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
NetDoc said:
True love is always a sacrifice. We need to love those who hate us and even persecute us.

Yes, no Christian would disagree with you netdoc. The question is one of practical application. As a nation, how far do we go? Do we lay down our arms, get rid of our nuclear warheads, dismantle our armed forces, or what? If we do are we inviting enemies who wish to destroy us to go ahead and do so? Are we obliged to defend the innocent, and if so to what extent?

Good Lord, don't people read posts anymore?

People like this truly buy into the the horror of WWJB. It's disgusting.

I am sorry you have judged the author so harshly netdoc, she (and her pov) really isn't disgusting at all but you are talking about a very nurturing loving soul, a sensitive and intelligent person, a Godly woman I admire greatly. If she or I are in error please be more specific than a (sort of hateful) one line dismissal.

That is if your loving Christian nature will allow it.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Sorry... you are talking to an extreme pacifist. Christians have no business waging wars, singularly or corporately. The war in Iraq is one of OUR AGGRESSION. Al Queda and not Iraq were responsible for 9/11. There is no defense of our national interests involved. While our troops are doing their level best, they have been brought into harm's way by a lying president intent on lining the pockets of his homies. He has sold this nation out for 13 shekels of silver.

Disgust and hate are not the same thing. You bomb who you want to bomb, but don't expect me to applaud your efforts at war mongering. Trying to couch those who abhor this war as less than patriots only shows to what lengths the religious right will go to to retain power.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
NetDoc said:
Sorry... you are talking to an extreme pacifist. Christians have no business waging wars, singularly or corporately. The war in Iraq is one of OUR AGGRESSION. Al Queda and not Iraq were responsible for 9/11. There is no defense of our national interests involved. While our troops are doing their level best, they have been brought into harm's way by a lying president intent on lining the pockets of his homies. He has sold this nation out for 13 shekels of silver.

Disgust and hate are not the same thing. You bomb who you want to bomb, but don't expect me to applaud your efforts at war mongering. Trying to couch those who abhor this war as less than patriots only shows to what lengths the religious right will go to to retain power.

I have no problems talking to an extreme pacifist netdoc, especially one who can supply answers to some of the tougher questions extreme pacificsts love to avoid.

Such as the ones I asked, which you didn't answer.

I would agree with you, it is wrong to label one another inappropriately, or to use hyperbole and rhetoric rather than discussing an issue. I would never accuse a Christian pacificst of being less patriotic because of their sincerely held beliefs. Having the courage of one's convictions should be standard for all Christians.

But again, I wouldn't want to be labeled a war-mongerer for wishing, for example, to support and defend Israel if they asked for our help against a genocidal oppressor. And to be fair, I would venture to guess most Americans on both sides of the aisle are nearly clueless about the "war" in Iraq thanks to the misinformation and propaganda campaigns flying at them from both sides.

Personally I am as angry with GWB as I have ever been with any president, and can't understand why we can't seem to find and elect reasonable, rational, intelligent presidents but that's not what this is about either. It's the question of military force. Should Christians support an isolationist policy? Do we have a moral right to defend ourselves/country, and if so would that moral right extend to our allies?

As a nation, how far do we go? Do we lay down our arms, get rid of our nuclear warheads, dismantle our armed forces, or what? If we do are we inviting enemies who wish to destroy us to go ahead and do so? Are we obliged to defend the innocent, and if so to what extent?
 

yippityyak

Member
NetDoc said:
Sorry... you are talking to an extreme pacifist. Christians have no business waging wars, singularly or corporately. The war in Iraq is one of OUR AGGRESSION. Al Queda and not Iraq were responsible for 9/11. There is no defense of our national interests involved. While our troops are doing their level best, they have been brought into harm's way by a lying president intent on lining the pockets of his homies. He has sold this nation out for 13 shekels of silver.

Disgust and hate are not the same thing. You bomb who you want to bomb, but don't expect me to applaud your efforts at war mongering. Trying to couch those who abhor this war as less than patriots only shows to what lengths the religious right will go to to retain power.

I totally agree with you! If a Christian preaches to forgive the enemy and to not kill, why are they out there trying to bomb and kill??? Protect yourselves and your people, but dont go invade a foreign country! And the same thing applies to Muslims who preach about love and honour, what are they doing bombing themselves up for? We all need to stop trying to be the best and the badest, and get on with things!

Just my opinion!
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
As a nation, how far do we go? Do we lay down our arms, get rid of our nuclear warheads, dismantle our armed forces, or what? If we do are we inviting enemies who wish to destroy us to go ahead and do so? Are we obliged to defend the innocent, and if so to what extent?
We start by stopping the madness in Iraq and pull the hell out. We have NO BUSINESS being in there... this is Haliburton's war: let him fight it without our kids!
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I believe that we can defend ourselves against the behavior of our enemies while still loving (and forgiving) them, because we can separate their behavior from who they are as people, in our own hearts and minds.

On the other hand, I do believe that Jesus has challenged us to NOT defend ourselves against our enemy's harmful behaviors so that we will become an object lesson to them, and so that the power of God's love exemplified by and within us may help to heal them and change them.

This is a very difficult challenge, I admit, but to pretend that Jesus is not presenting it to us is to ignore one of the most fundamental principals of Christianity.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Moon Woman said:
I am wondering, Comprehend, did you actually read the article or just the headline?? No one is arguing against loving our enemies. Is there anything you would like to address beyond the obvious?

Moon woman, I do not believe that loving your enemy means "doing what they want" or "allowing them to do whatever they want" I believe it means to do what is in their best interest in light of the gospel. Clearly what is in a murderers best interest is to be stopped. I am not oppossed to going to fight to stop an enemy. It would be plain stupidity to lay down and allow whomever chooses to destroy your civilization and I do not think Jesus ever meant his commandment to be taken this way. I would agree with some of the article, I do not believe loving your enemy is a giant suicide pact. Love means to do what is best for the others in light of the gospel. I love my daughter, sometimes she wants ice-cream for dinner. Would it be love for me to allow her to eat ice-cream or candy for every meal? Of course not. So when I deny her wishes, and give her what I know is best, it is done out of love. (sorry about the weak first response, is that better?)
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Self defense is one thing... but even THAT is strictly prohibited by scriptures. Defense of country and family is not really discussed. Your conscience should be your guide and no one else.

The USA is not a Christian nation. We are a melting pot of religions and ethnicities. The direction of the USA therefore is not determined by anyone's interpretation of the Bible, real or profane. It is determined by the people who run our government, and quite often, and especially in this administration, they try to "SPIN" their actions to look like they are doing God's will. They lie. They lie a lot.

Israel does not need us to fight their wars. That is an insult to them and they have not asked for forces. They do want our armaments, and the warmongers that we are, we sell them as much as they can carry. The PTBs want you to think that we should send troops and such, because they build the weapons, and we don't buy many weapons if we are not at war.

Iraq was invaded because Haliburton needed a cash influx. There was NO compelling reason to invade and neither Republican nor Democrat agreed that invasion would be our FIRST option. No, the need to sell more arms and services so that a few could become wealthy have pushed us into this war, which might very well turn into WWIII.

So, when I read that horrid piece, all I could see was one justification after another for doing what we shouldn't be doing and trying to use God to justify it all. It's war mongering in it's most evil form. Blaming God for a war he does not want to see. The Old Testament is full of the Israelites blaming God for their wars. When does this madness end?

When we all say "We're as mad as hell, and we aren't going to be taking this anymore!" The power has already begun to shift. It's important that we hold our legislator's feet to the fire and MAKE THEM get us out of Iraq.

My best friend Dan (a Republican) told me last night: "But we have to stay so we can help them!" "Dan, there is no way we can help them by staying." "Unfortunately, I think you are all too right Pete." I remember Dan cheering when the invasion started and was shocked by my reticence in all of the hooplah. He questioned my patriotism and he was hurt by my estimation of doom and failure and my unequivocal stance that if my son were drafted that I would hold him and the others who voted in Mr Warmonger President in responsible for anything that happened to him.
 
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