Christians! Now which Mosaic Laws are still in force for you?

[oldbadger]

9 of the 10 commandments are repeatedly applied to Christians in the NT.
There are other rules and laws that are promulgated for Christians in the NT as well.

OK.
So if rules and laws are not promulgated in the NT then they no longer stand for Christians...... Is that it?

 

[shmogie]

OK.
So if rules and laws are not promulgated in the NT then they no longer stand for Christians...... Is that it?

The NT in all respects is where rules and laws for Christians are found.

They may be directly from the OT as written in the OT. They may be modified versions of OT law. They may be completely new when compared to the OT.

If it isn't in the NT, it is not a law commanded to Christians.

Some may adopt traditions from the OT , nevertheless, what is required is only in the NT.

 

[PureX]

Oh...... You didn't want to answer my question.
I'm interested in the history of Jesus, model boats, our dogs and living with my wife. I just am.

Now, since Jesus was only talking to Jews, do you take any notice of what he said?
If you don't, then why are you a Christian?

Jesus said different things to different people for different reasons. As is only normal and natural, and as we all do. What is not normal or natural is for us to then presume that every word he uttered was intended for all mankind and in all circumstances, from the moment of it's utterance to the end of time. So I pay attention to what he is supposed to have said (remembering that the stories we are reading were written by others, many years later), and to whom he is supposed to have said it, and I contemplate why he gave this response in this particular circumstance to this particular person. And from this I begin to get an idea of what his overall message was. And what of it applies to me, here and now, 2000 years later.

As I see it Jesus introduced humankind to a new way of understanding and relating to God that humanity had never realized, before: and that is the revelation that the spirit of God exists within us. And along with that revelation comes the promise that if we will allow that divine spirit within us to guide our thoughts and actions, we will be healed and saved from ourselves, and can help to heal and save others. All other human religions perceived God/gods as being external entities, only (including Judaism). So I read the story of Jesus and his teachings via the light of this revelation, and this promise, because I have found it to be true in my own life.

 

[Iymus]

To start off, let's pick any one Mosaic law ...... this was chosen by my wife by opening early pages of the bible and placing her finger down until eventually there was a law underneath, and so fate decided this one:-

Deut {24:5} When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business:[but] he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

OK..... So..... how many Christian business folks have a one-year paid leave (or leave of absence) scheme for their employee brides and/or grooms? If not, why not?

Wait a minute!!!

Your wife only bring Christian businesses to be held accountable
Where is contract of slavery or bondage to the Christian business that violate this law?

If your wife is without sin let her cast the first stone.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

You have no idea what Paul is basing his doctrine on. You make assumptions, which are incorrect.

You don't like it, that's fine, that's your right.

You misquoted Christ, and took him out of context. He said the law wouldn't change "till all is fulfilled." All was fulfilled.

The law was given to Israel for Israel, the Jews. It was not given to the gentiles, it had no application to them. He was speaking to Jews.

The first covenant with Israel included their law.

The new covenant for Christians has it's law written in the NT. It eliminates most Jewish laws, modifies some, and reiterates some.

It is the law of Christ

You talk about “no ideas”, and “misquoted”.
Everything YOU say though, is perfectly perfect.
As far as your religion is concerned.
Which is not even in the same universe as my understanding of the Lord.

 

[1213]

Can I take it from the above quote that you tend to take Paul's words before those of Jesus? Would that be right?

No, for me Jesus is greater. But I think Paul is not in contradiction with Jesus. In my opinion Paul explains well the teachings of Jesus. If they would be in contradiction, I would choose Jesus rather than Paul.

 

[robocop (actually)]

It's time that I found out about this. One Christian might mention a law and quote from the Mosaic books, another could dismiss the same law but feel strong about other ones. Some of the more extreme Christians seem to want a Theistic Monarchy leading a Police State (oh yes!) whilst others focus upon love and understanding as the main message of Jesus. The range of tenets that fall under the title of Christianity are legion, I think.

And I cannot tie any of it down! Like willow-the-wisps some Christians will pick up and drop Mosaic Laws at whim (it seems) whilst totally disregarding the ones that others have greatest respect for.
So...... please...... Can you help with this?

To start off, let's pick any one Mosaic law ...... this was chosen by my wife by opening early pages of the bible and placing her finger down until eventually there was a law underneath, and so fate decided this one:-

Deut {24:5} When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business:[but] he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

OK..... So..... how many Christian business folks have a one-year paid leave (or leave of absence) scheme for their employee brides and/or grooms? If not, why not?

I still like the ten commandments and some of the law of Moses. I like carrying your brother's load, for instance.

 

[Deeje]

My use of the word 'Priesthood' is for the leaders of Churches.
The Elders were leaders.

It is important that the distinction be made OB. There was no earthly priesthood in original Christianity. Jesus has the role of High Priest and those serving under him were specially chosen and anointed by God. Their priesthood is served in heaven, which means that Elders were spiritually qualified men who were used to keep Christianity from the elements that corrupted Judaism, which they did until the final contribution of the Christian scriptures was completed by the last apostle, John.

Thereafter, Jesus foretold that weeds would spring up and overtake the wheat that he planted. From the second century onward, Christianity began a slow and steady decline into complete apostasy, which facilitated the takeover of Roman Catholicism in the 4th century. The activities of “the church” betrayed any claim to be Christ’s disciples, instead descending into the kind of corruption that abuse of power creates like no other.

At the time of judgment (when Jesus comes as God’s appointed judge) he will have exposed this disgusting fake for what it is. These “Christians” will offer their excuses for why their “Lord” should accept them as his disciples, but his stinging rebuke informs them that he “NEVER knew” them and called them “workers of lawlessness”. (Matthew 7 :21-23) “Never” means “not ever”.

Oh no!
Look at your next Paragraph......

God’s direction has always been provided for his worshippers, but they have not always followed it. Throughout their history, the Jews strayed many times under bad leadership and God, (mindful of his covenant to produce their Messiah through Abraham’s offspring) kept punishing them and bringing them back, until his purpose in connection with them was completed. Only a “remnant” responded to Jesus as Messiah and “the lost sheep” were drawn to his teachings....as it was prophesied.

Satan identified himself as the ruler of this world, and Jesus did not argue with him but simply corrected his temptations with scripture. (Luke 4:5-8) Satan could not offer God’s son “ all the kingdoms of the world” if they were not his to give. If Satan can give rulership to whomever he pleases, then doesn’t that explain why world leaders can never deliver what they promise? Who is pulling the strings?

My beliefs don't count here, but you know that most Christians believe in a Trinity, and some don't.

The Elders either prayed to God and received their guidance from God, or not. As soon as Holy Spirits are guiding the World then everybody is over half way to a Trinity already. But that's not really the point of this thread, I'm just mentioning that point.

Not sure I understand the point you’re making here OB? The trinity is not a Bible teaching. It was a product of the apostasy.

According to the Bible, spirits do indeed control the world, but they are anything but holy. Because God’s worshippers must live among those who are hostile to God (or even the notion of a god) he has provided guidance for those who care to follow his direction. He does not guarantee that they will not be victims of God’s enemies, but nothing is lost in this world that cannot be replaced in the new world to come (2 Peter 3:13)...even our lives. What appears to be out of control, really isn’t.

I have heard the most dreadful things, read them, actually.

It appears as if you believe the claims of those who wear their Christianity as a mask to justify doing all the things that Jesus condemned. If Christ has “never” recognised those ones, why would we? It’s never been about what you call yourself....actions speak louder than words. Didn’t Jesus say that we would recognise his true disciples by their “fruits”? Talk is cheap.

@Deeje ! Are you there?

Sorry, needed to go to bed. Zzzzzz Stupid time zones.....

The name I expected to appear was completely submerged under accounts of other Pastors from Denver who have beaten up wives, abused kids and messed up funerals.

But (by chance) that obviously can show just how much variation is there is within the term 'Christian'

Nothing surprises me OB. It doesn’t surprise God either, who told us all about this situation long before it happened.

Any variation from what Christ taught, especially with regard to the nature of God and his son, or in violating any of his teachings, is not the genuine article....they are pretenders IMO, just like the god they serve.

 

[Deeje]

Thankyou for your answers, if veiled, to some extent, by a theological lesson.

I always like to explain why I believe something. Details are important to me.

Crystallize? Hmmm...... I'm trying to obtain a crystal clear view of what Christians really do believe about life and love.

That’s easy....just follow the teachings of Jesus. That is what Christianity is. If you have to justify why you don’t or won’t follow all of those teachings, then you just created you own version of a different religion, regardless of what you call it.

You may already have seen how one respondent has initially written that there is no Mosaic Law in their particular Creed, and then later telling me that Mosaic Law is there. I wish to learn more about such ideas.

Since Jesus was a Jew under law, all of his teachings reflected respect for it. But when the new covenant was inaugurated on his last Passover night, Jesus took his disciples in a new direction, without dismissing the principles behind the law, but incorporating them. After all, the Law was perfect, but humans are not.

One example was the law on adultery.
Matthew 5:27-28....
“You heard that it was said: ‘You must not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

By presenting the steps in what is a chain reaction, Jesus was using the law but explaining what steps precede the action to help his followers to avoid behavior that results in adultery.

James wrote...
13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed* by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.” (James 1:13-15)

Jesus used this teaching technique to help to identify the first steps towards sin being “carried out”, so as to avoid it. That is great wisdom.

 

[oldbadger]

Jesus said different things to different people for different reasons. As is only normal and natural, and as we all do. What is not normal or natural is for us to then presume that every word he uttered was intended for all mankind and in all circumstances, from the moment of it's utterance to the end of time. So I pay attention to what he is supposed to have said (remembering that the stories we are reading were written by others, many years later), and to whom he is supposed to have said it, and I contemplate why he gave this response in this particular circumstance to this particular person. And from this I begin to get an idea of what his overall message was. And what of it applies to me, here and now, 2000 years later.

As I see it Jesus introduced humankind to a new way of understanding and relating to God that humanity had never realized, before: and that is the revelation that the spirit of God exists within us. And along with that revelation comes the promise that if we will allow that divine spirit within us to guide our thoughts and actions, we will be healed and saved from ourselves, and can help to heal and save others. All other human religions perceived God/gods as being external entities, only (including Judaism). So I read the story of Jesus and his teachings via the light of this revelation, and this promise, because I have found it to be true in my own life.

Thankyou for that.
Does this mean that you are a very individual Christian, not following any particular Church? I ask because I have never heard such descriptions of Jesus before.

 

[oldbadger]

Wait a minute!!!

Your wife only bring Christian businesses to be held accountable
Where is contract of slavery or bondage to the Christian business that violate this law?

If your wife is without sin let her cast the first stone.

Wait a minute!
My wife is not a Christian, she simply turned to an early page of the bible and placed her finger upon those verses. At my request! So that I could tell the members here that the Law was selected at random.

You don't pay attention to what is written, methinks.

 

[oldbadger]

Your wife only bring Christian businesses to be held accountable.

Wrong! The passage selected at random is a law for the Israelites!

 

[oldbadger]

No, for me Jesus is greater. But I think Paul is not in contradiction with Jesus. In my opinion Paul explains well the teachings of Jesus. If they would be in contradiction, I would choose Jesus rather than Paul.

Thankyou for your post.
But what about where Paul writes rules and laws which Jesus never mentioned?

And, could I ask, are there any Mosaic Laws which you follow from the Old Testament?

 

[oldbadger]

I still like the ten commandments and some of the law of Moses. I like carrying your brother's load, for instance.

Hi.....
Yes........ good law to keep!
If you abide by one, what about the other non-sacrificial/ceremonial laws? There are 507 of them.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Hi.....
Yes........ good law to keep!
If you abide by one, what about the other non-sacrificial/ceremonial laws? There are 507 of them.

I think we should do the jubilee as our method of economy!

Have the value of everything but a house go down linearly over 49 years and then it gets redistributed to the poor. Helps to still motivate hard work while preventing wealth inequality from increasing!

 

[robocop (actually)]

There are a lot of them I like. But Christianity has a different way to motivate.

 

[74x12]

So you're not under the Law, but you follow the law. Yes?
That does not make sense. If you follow laws then you are under them.
Or do some Christians who are 'not under l;aw' enforce stuff upon others?

The old Testament is a covenant/legal agreement between God and Israel. The Laws were added on to the Covenant as kind of ancient "terms and conditions" of the agreement. Meaning Israel would receive protection and blessings from God as long as they kept the "terms and conditions".

It was called the OLD Covenant/agreement because there is now a new Covenant. So the new Covenant replaces the old Covenant entirely. That's why the old laws are not laws anymore; yet some of them are still going to be valid. Because they are in the new Covenant as well.

No..... you got that wrong.
Christians do keep feast days.
And the sacrificial laws not only kept thousands of Levite Priests in Jobs but created a balance in the minds of the people that once cleansed they could clear their minds and carry on again. The psychosomatic value of declaration,
contrition, cleansing and redemption kept the majority of the people in a balanced society.
Not right for Jesus, but right 'back in the day'.

We know that Jesus stopped the sacrificial ceremonial merry-go round, but there are 507 laws left for Christians to pick up or put down.

Now...... do you quote the OT laws to others, or do you stick to NT writings about laws?

I only quote OT laws as per 2 Timothy 3:16. That is for teaching etc. It's not a Law anymore but that doesn't mean it's not very useful. It's still inspired scripture given by God. Many spiritual principles never change. God never changes. The covenant/agreement has changed but God Himself has not changed.

As for laws in the OT that are still followed. Some of these laws could never not be valid just because of the way they are; such as ones about loving your neighbor and loving God. If you read the NT enough you'll know which ones are like that.

But we don't want to decide that the bible really meant something else, or do we?

If you read a piece and then tell me that it probably means something other than written, we've got a problem, don't you think?

Correct. It's something to be cautious of. However, I'm speculating because I think the historical perspective is really important.

90% of the Jewish people were within the peasant classes.

Well, I think that's not technically accurate. The term peasant is more applicable to a Feudal society. It implies a farmer or really a servant who is tied to the land and not allowed to move and has to pay tribute/rent to a landlord. Feudalism as we know it; was really begun in the later Roman empire as they found it problematic to defend so much territory. They had to respond by giving out lots of land to Dukes who would defend the land from invaders. That way the Roman army didn't have to be everywhere at once. The system was simply adopted by invading Germanic tribes who replaced the Romans themselves on top of the Feudalism system. It must have seemed like a really good deal because they already had peasants working for them.

But before that; the Germanic tribes had a tribal society rather than Feudal one and there is a difference.

The ancient Israelites also used a tribal system.

In the tribal system; the tribe is like a large family and you go down the pyramid from there. The tribe at the top, then smaller clans within the tribe and within the clans large families all the way down to the immediate household/family.

So even a poor farmer within the tribe can be tasked with "business" by his family, clan or tribe.

How many stationary Jews do you think this law was not intended for? Couldn't the verses have simply meant what they showed?

If you do this with all the laws and verses you could change the whole basis of the legislation surely?

I believe this law would be applicable to everyone it pertained to. More so the warfare portion of it than the business one I suppose. So I think that's the main focus of the law.

I don't intend to change anything and I think that's a good point to be cautious of. However, I'm only speculating because this legal code is really ancient. I think to fully understand parts of it you would need to understand that ancient society and conditions that were present then.

But do you follow any OT laws, please?

Not because they are OT laws. But I try to follow some things that are laws in the OT.

 

[Deeje]

But what about where Paul writes rules and laws which Jesus never mentioned?

Just out of interest....can you tell me what teachings that Paul writes about, were not embodied in the Law or in the teachings of Christ. I have heard people mention these things, but since Paul's education was provided by the resurrected Jesus himself, (not the other apostles) how can anyone categorically state that what Paul taught was not Jesus' teachings? When did he ever contradict either the spirit of the Law or anything Jesus taught?

I'd like some details please.

If the Bible is God's word, which we believe it is, then why didn't the holy spirit expose Paul as a fraud? Why are his writings such an integral part of Christian scripture? Does God have no control over the contents of what is essentially his own book? If he can create the Universe, then surely that would be a piece of cake?

 

[oldbadger]

I think we should do the jubilee as our method of economy!

Have the value of everything but a house go down linearly over 49 years and then it gets redistributed to the poor. Helps to still motivate hard work while preventing wealth inequality from increasing!

Ok, if that's going to help.
But it does seem as if you, a follower of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints (?) does not follow the OT laws, really.
Correct?
So far no Christian member has said that they follow any of the OT Laws.

 

[oldbadger]

The old Testament is a covenant/legal agreement between God and Israel. The Laws were added on to the Covenant as kind of ancient "terms and conditions" of the agreement. Meaning Israel would receive protection and blessings from God as long as they kept the "terms and conditions".

It was called the OLD Covenant/agreement because there is now a new Covenant. So the new Covenant replaces the old Covenant entirely. That's why the old laws are not laws anymore; yet some of them are still going to be valid. Because they are in the new Covenant as well.

I only quote OT laws as per 2 Timothy 3:16. That is for teaching etc. It's not a Law anymore but that doesn't mean it's not very useful. It's still inspired scripture given by God. Many spiritual principles never change. God never changes. The covenant/agreement has changed but God Himself has not changed.

As for laws in the OT that are still followed. Some of these laws could never not be valid just because of the way they are; such as ones about loving your neighbor and loving God. If you read the NT enough you'll know which ones are like that.

Correct. It's something to be cautious of. However, I'm speculating because I think the historical perspective is really important.

Well, I think that's not technically accurate. The term peasant is more applicable to a Feudal society. It implies a farmer or really a servant who is tied to the land and not allowed to move and has to pay tribute/rent to a landlord. Feudalism as we know it; was really begun in the later Roman empire as they found it problematic to defend so much territory. They had to respond by giving out lots of land to Dukes who would defend the land from invaders. That way the Roman army didn't have to be everywhere at once. The system was simply adopted by invading Germanic tribes who replaced the Romans themselves on top of the Feudalism system. It must have seemed like a really good deal because they already had peasants working for them.

But before that; the Germanic tribes had a tribal society rather than Feudal one and there is a difference.

The ancient Israelites also used a tribal system.

In the tribal system; the tribe is like a large family and you go down the pyramid from there. The tribe at the top, then smaller clans within the tribe and within the clans large families all the way down to the immediate household/family.

So even a poor farmer within the tribe can be tasked with "business" by his family, clan or tribe.

I believe this law would be applicable to everyone it pertained to. More so the warfare portion of it than the business one I suppose. So I think that's the main focus of the law.

I don't intend to change anything and I think that's a good point to be cautious of. However, I'm only speculating because this legal code is really ancient. I think to fully understand parts of it you would need to understand that ancient society and conditions that were present then.

Not because they are OT laws. But I try to follow some things that are laws in the OT.

Thankyou for that, I do acknowledge the whole post and the info.
There is only one point about one part of it.

My point about 90% of Palestine being peasantry in the time of Jesus (certainly). There was no middle class at all! The Levites had the best jobs ranging from Temple Guard (6000), through Taxation Official(1000's), to Temple Priest (2000) up to Sanhedrin member and many other official positions in between, and the peasant classes were composed of layers such as beggar&sick, Gleaner, Labourer, Haulier, Hand Worker (wood/bone) up to Hand Worker stone and metal).

The only people who rose from the peasant classes were a very few non-Levite Pharisees, merchant traders, successful brigands, best soldiers etc.

Yes..... the people were well down-trodden, which is why I believe that the Baptist and Jesus did what they did, but that's me, a Deist for you.