Christians only: Christian Anarchy

[te_lanus]

"The religious truth of anarchism consists in this, that power over man is bound up with sin and evil...The Kingdom of God is freedom and the absence of such power, the Kingdom of God is anarchy." - Nicolas Berdyaev

You must not be called 'Teacher,' because you are all equal and have only one Teacher. And you must not call anyone here on earth 'Father,' because you have only the one Father in heaven. Nor should you be called 'Leader,' because your one and only leader is the Messiah. The greatest one among you must be your servant. Whoever makes himself great will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be made great.
(Mat 23:8-12 GNB)

So Jesus called them all together and said, "You know that the rulers of the heathen have power over them, and the leaders have complete authority. This, however, is not the way it shall be among you. If one of you wants to be great, you must be the servant of the rest;
(Mat 20:25-26 GNB)

What a radical thought! Essentially Jesus said “You are all brothers and you have no leadership authority over you except for me!” If taken literally, almost 100% of our current Christian congregations are disobeying this command! - ChristianAnarchy.com

My first Question is: is the Church really doing what Jesus told them to do. As Jesus told us that no man can serve two masters, you will love the one and "hate" the other. You can't serve your "Pastor/Reverent/Bishop" and Jesus at the same time.

I say it as some (Not all) of the preachers teaches doctrine that clearly is a) heretical, Contrary to God's word, Or b)"parts of the law of Moses" that Jesus came to fulfill. Esp. the Feast/Offering, Like Tithing, we all know that Jesus' Death was the "ultimate" sacrifice for our sin, and that His sacrifice was the fulfillment of all the Old Testament sacrifices ordered by God.

Second question is: Shouldn't the church be more "autonomous" where the congregation comes together and vote as a whole congregation on who "leads" their congregation without any interferences from their denomination. What I've read, The UU's are following this model, unfortunately I have no experience in the UU church as there is no UU church in South Africa.

 

[Heneni]

The real church is doing what god wants them to do. Jesus knew that there would be imposters in his church (which is not a building) but a collective group of people saved by his grace through faith. You cant play footsy with the devil even if he mascarades as an angel of light. You cant play nice with the foxes, neither can you invite the leaven. They both corrupt.

 

[Katzpur]

My first Question is: is the Church really doing what Jesus told them to do. As Jesus told us that no man can serve two masters, you will love the one and "hate" the other. You can't serve your "Pastor/Reverent/Bishop" and Jesus at the same time.

I say it as some (Not all) of the preachers teaches doctrine that clearly is a) heretical, Contrary to God's word, Or b)"parts of the law of Moses" that Jesus came to fulfill. Esp. the Feast/Offering, Like Tithing, we all know that Jesus' Death was the "ultimate" sacrifice for our sin, and that His sacrifice was the fulfillment of all the Old Testament sacrifices ordered by God.

I'll answer your first question with a question: What on earth makes you think tithing was part of the law of Moses?

Second question is: Shouldn't the church be more "autonomous" where the congregation comes together and vote as a whole congregation on who "leads" their congregation without any interferences from their denomination. What I've read, The UU's are following this model, unfortunately I have no experience in the UU church as there is no UU church in South Africa.

Why should men decided on who should be in charge? I would think that's a job for God.

 

[te_lanus]

I'll answer your first question with a question: What on earth makes you think tithing was part of the law of Moses?

According to the two Quoted verses is clear that YHWH ordered the Jews to give tithes unto Him

One tenth of all the produce of the land, whether grain or fruit, belongs to the LORD. If you wish to buy any of it back, you must pay the standard price plus an additional 20 percent. One of every ten domestic animals belongs to the LORD. When the animals are counted, every tenth one belongs to the LORD. You may not arrange the animals so that the poor animals are chosen, and you may not make any substitutions. If you do substitute one animal for another, then both animals will belong to the LORD and may not be bought back. These are the commands that the LORD gave Moses on Mount Sinai for the people of Israel.
(Lev 27:30-34 GNB)

The LORD commanded Moses to say to the Levites: "When you receive from the Israelites the tithe that the LORD gives you as your possession, you must present a tenth of it as a special contribution to the LORD. This special contribution will be considered as the equivalent of the offering which the farmer makes of new grain and new wine. In this way you also will present the special contribution that belongs to the LORD from all the tithes which you receive from the Israelites. You are to give this special contribution for the LORD to Aaron the priest. Give it from the best that you receive. When you have presented the best part, you may keep the rest, just as the farmer keeps what is left after he makes his offering.
(Num 18:25-30 GNB)

 

[Katzpur]

According to the two Quoted verses is clear that YHWH ordered the Jews to give tithes unto Him

Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the law of tithing became obsolete after Jesus' death. I was saying that I don't believe it did. Regardless, it was not a part of the law of Moses.

 

[Heneni]

Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the law of tithing became obsolete after Jesus' death. I was saying that I don't believe it did. Regardless, it was not a part of the law of Moses.

What law was the law of tithing then?

 

[Katzpur]

What law was the law of tithing then?

It was a law given sometime before Moses lived. It was instituted closer to Abraham's time than Moses'. And in Matthew 23:23, Jesus endorses it. He says it's not the most important (or most weighty) matter but that it is still a commandment.

 

[Heneni]

It was a law given sometime before Moses lived. It was instituted closer to Abraham's time than Moses'. And in Matthew 23:23, Jesus endorses it. He says it's not the most important (or most weighty) matter but that it is still a commandment.

You talking about the tithes that abraham gave to melchizedek?

And about matthew 23:23:

Matthe23: 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Jesus calls these folk who are tithing hypocrites! They have neglected more important aspect of the law. We were never under that law...we are gentiles.

Heneni

 

[te_lanus]

It was a law given sometime before Moses lived. It was instituted closer to Abraham's time than Moses'. And in Matthew 23:23, Jesus endorses it. He says it's not the most important (or most weighty) matter but that it is still a commandment.

Paul says that God doesn't want our sacrifices as Jesus' Death is the ultimate sacrifice

Then he said, "Here I am, O God, to do your will." So God does away with all the old sacrifices and puts the sacrifice of Christ in their place. Because Jesus Christ did what God wanted him to do, we are all purified from sin by the offering that he made of his own body once and for all.
(Heb 10:9-10 GNB)

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus calls these folk who are tithing hypocrites! They have neglected more important aspect of the law. We were never under that law...we are gentiles.

Heneni

I disagree, Heneni. Jesus said they should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness) without neglecting the former (the law of tithing). He certainly wasn't implying that they were hypocrites because they were paying tithes. He was calling them hypocrites because they were neglecting even more weightier commandments. I believe the law of tithing is still in effect, but then I don't consider myself a gentile, either.

 

[Möbius]

My first Question is: is the Church really doing what Jesus told them to do.

Short answer: no. But if we're talking about the Church as the body of true believers as opposed to modern Christianity as a whole, then yes, the true Church is doing what the Lord commands because they love him and are attentive to his will. It seems you're mostly referring to the pastor preaching to the flock every Sunday method though, which isn't the kind of service I'm interested in, and I don't find very biblical.

I say it as some (Not all) of the preachers teaches doctrine that clearly is a) heretical, Contrary to God's word, Or b)"parts of the law of Moses" that Jesus came to fulfill. Esp. the Feast/Offering, Like Tithing, we all know that Jesus' Death was the "ultimate" sacrifice for our sin, and that His sacrifice was the fulfillment of all the Old Testament sacrifices ordered by God.

Do you not recognize a difference between moral law and ceremonial law? I was under the impression that God commands a tithe (which doesn't only mean 10% of your paycheck).

Second question is: Shouldn't the church be more "autonomous" where the congregation comes together and vote as a whole congregation on who "leads" their congregation without any interferences from their denomination. What I've read, The UU's are following this model, unfortunately I have no experience in the UU church as there is no UU church in South Africa.

I don't know anything about the UU church. . . I don't agree with voting necessarily, it's too easy to become a popularity contest much like a presidential race. There shouldn't be one leader other than the Spirit, but there should be elders - spiritually and mentally mature members of the body - to facilitate the congregation.

As much as I dislike the reality of denominations - division in the church, neither can we have a bunch of different congregations that each become, in effect, their own denomination.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

My first Question is: is the Church really doing what Jesus told them to do. As Jesus told us that no man can serve two masters, you will love the one and "hate" the other. You can't serve your "Pastor/Reverent/Bishop" and Jesus at the same time.

I say it as some (Not all) of the preachers teaches doctrine that clearly is a) heretical, Contrary to God's word, Or b)"parts of the law of Moses" that Jesus came to fulfill. Esp. the Feast/Offering, Like Tithing, we all know that Jesus' Death was the "ultimate" sacrifice for our sin, and that His sacrifice was the fulfillment of all the Old Testament sacrifices ordered by God.

Second question is: Shouldn't the church be more "autonomous" where the congregation comes together and vote as a whole congregation on who "leads" their congregation without any interferences from their denomination. What I've read, The UU's are following this model, unfortunately I have no experience in the UU church as there is no UU church in South Africa.

My opinion is that over time, the role and function of church is much like the role and function of interpretation.

The both serve an individual's agenda. The fact we see so many different churches, and so many different teachings, should make anyone that belongs to any church really question, what in the hell is going on?

There is nothing in the bible that tells how a corporate church is to run, except a little in the letter to Timothy, but that just isn't enough, and certainly not enough to base the monstrosity we see and call church today.:no:

 

[Thesavorofpan]

My first Question is: is the Church really doing what Jesus told them to do. As Jesus told us that no man can serve two masters, you will love the one and "hate" the other. You can't serve your "Pastor/Reverent/Bishop" and Jesus at the same time.

I say it as some (Not all) of the preachers teaches doctrine that clearly is a) heretical, Contrary to God's word, Or b)"parts of the law of Moses" that Jesus came to fulfill. Esp. the Feast/Offering, Like Tithing, we all know that Jesus' Death was the "ultimate" sacrifice for our sin, and that His sacrifice was the fulfillment of all the Old Testament sacrifices ordered by God.

Second question is: Shouldn't the church be more "autonomous" where the congregation comes together and vote as a whole congregation on who "leads" their congregation without any interferences from their denomination. What I've read, The UU's are following this model, unfortunately I have no experience in the UU church as there is no UU church in South Africa.

To answer your first question what God was talking about there he meant you can't serve God and Sin at the same time. Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for ether he will hate the one and love the other or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and Mammon (another word for flesh or your sinful desires) As you see hear you ether can follow God's law or you can follow your fresh, but you can't serve God and Sin and expect to go to Heaven.

 

[sojourner]

My first Question is: is the Church really doing what Jesus told them to do. As Jesus told us that no man can serve two masters, you will love the one and "hate" the other. You can't serve your "Pastor/Reverent/Bishop" and Jesus at the same time.

I say it as some (Not all) of the preachers teaches doctrine that clearly is a) heretical, Contrary to God's word, Or b)"parts of the law of Moses" that Jesus came to fulfill. Esp. the Feast/Offering, Like Tithing, we all know that Jesus' Death was the "ultimate" sacrifice for our sin, and that His sacrifice was the fulfillment of all the Old Testament sacrifices ordered by God.

Second question is: Shouldn't the church be more "autonomous" where the congregation comes together and vote as a whole congregation on who "leads" their congregation without any interferences from their denomination. What I've read, The UU's are following this model, unfortunately I have no experience in the UU church as there is no UU church in South Africa.

Several misconceptions at work here. First of all, the people don't serve the clergy. It's actually the other way 'round.

Second, the basic form of the church isn't the congregation.

 

[thewindblows]

My first Question is: is the Church really doing what Jesus told them to do. As Jesus told us that no man can serve two masters, you will love the one and "hate" the other. You can't serve your "Pastor/Reverent/Bishop" and Jesus at the same time.

I say it as some (Not all) of the preachers teaches doctrine that clearly is a) heretical, Contrary to God's word, Or b)"parts of the law of Moses" that Jesus came to fulfill. Esp. the Feast/Offering, Like Tithing, we all know that Jesus' Death was the "ultimate" sacrifice for our sin, and that His sacrifice was the fulfillment of all the Old Testament sacrifices ordered by God.

Second question is: Shouldn't the church be more "autonomous" where the congregation comes together and vote as a whole congregation on who "leads" their congregation without any interferences from their denomination. What I've read, The UU's are following this model, unfortunately I have no experience in the UU church as there is no UU church in South Africa.

You serve the one and the other serves you and God.

 

[sojourner]

My first Question is: is the Church really doing what Jesus told them to do. As Jesus told us that no man can serve two masters, you will love the one and "hate" the other. You can't serve your "Pastor/Reverent/Bishop" and Jesus at the same time.

You've got it backward. It's the clergy who serve the people. Holy Orders includes the understanding that this is a servant role. The stole (band worn around the neck and hanging in front) is a symbol of servitude.

Second question is: Shouldn't the church be more "autonomous" where the congregation comes together and vote as a whole congregation on who "leads" their congregation without any interferences from their denomination.

The understanding is that the basic expression of "church" (in the catholic model) resides in the body of people over which a bishop presides. Individual congregations are part and parcel of the same larger group (the diocese). Therefore, there is no "interference from the denomination."

In churches that are congregationally governed (such as the one I'm in), the congregation makes it own decisions regarding clergy, since in my denomination, the congregation is the basic form of "church."

Just thought I'd clarify a little.

 

[ChristineES]

Believe me, I can understand why someone would think of it as anarchy, due to certain quotes (mentioned in the OP). But these are taken out of context, somewhat. Jesus also commanded His followers to pay taxes (pay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and Pay to God what belongs to God). I take that to mean that He wanted His followers to follow the laws of the land.

 

[jtartar]

Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the law of tithing became obsolete after Jesus' death. I was saying that I don't believe it did. Regardless, it was not a part of the law of Moses.

Katzpur,
The laws on tithing were part of the Mosaic Law Covenant, which amounted to 613 laws. The ten Commandments were The Decologue, or Ten Words,and only a small part of the Mosaic Law Covenant.
The reason for the tithing laws was; the tribe of Levites did not own land, there inheritance was God, so a tenth of all of the other tribes was to go to the Levites so they could carry on the work of the Tabernacle, first, then the Temple work with all the sacrifices, Num 18:20-28, Deut 10:9, Jos 13:14, 14:3,4.
At Jesus death the New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, superceded the Old Mosaic Law Covenant, and made it obsolete, Heb 8:6-13, Col 2:13,14, Luke 22:18-20, 1Cor 11:23-26.
Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law Covenant, Matt 5:17. During Jesus' life on earth he fulfilled every part of the Law that was prophesied, and the Law came to an end. At that time the Jews ceased to be God's chosen people and the Christians became His chosen people. The Jews, all except what is called a remnant, rejected Jesus, the son of God, the only name that God gave men, by which they MUST get saved, Rom 9:27, 11:5, Acts 4:12.
Consider also Gal 3:10-14, 5:1-6. Jesus came to put the law away, because it condemned all to death, because no one could obey it perfectly, 2Cor 3:6,7, James 2:10, Acts 15:10,11. Only Jesus Ransom Sacrifice can save anyone, Gal 2:16, Acts 13:38,39.

 

[Charity]

I disagree, Heneni. Jesus said they should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness) without neglecting the former (the law of tithing). He certainly wasn't implying that they were hypocrites because they were paying tithes. He was calling them hypocrites because they were neglecting even more weightier commandments. I believe the law of tithing is still in effect, but then I don't consider myself a gentile, either.

I agree with you Katz......When the Bible said bring your tithes into the storehouse I believe it meant the church or wherever you worship. This money is used in the church to fund and further those who are working for God. Most of the time offerings are used to fund missions, missionaries, orphanages, soup kitchens and etc.
I agree that you don't neglect the "weightier commandments" Paying tithes without following the other commandments is like eating soup without a spoon....