Christians Only: Explaining the Trinity

[kerndog]

Bunch of highly opinionated stuff follows: It depends upon whose trinity it is. To understand its original purpose keep in mind that Christians believed God was everywhere in everything. The reasoning behind the Trinity derives from Plato, so you'd have to study the Greek philosophers and then also the writings of Jerome and Augustine. This I have not done myself, but the idea of Philosophy was originally to derive true information starting from a small set of truths or axioms. I think the early Christians went on a search to find all kinds of truth about God, believing that God's glory was everywhere all over the world to be gathered from under every rock and spreading leaf; so they naturally became interested in Greek philosophy. Philosophy was a systematic search for ultimate truths and even today is the basis for the subject called 'Logic'. The interest in philosophy (among Christians) began to show about 200AD when they really got serious about it and began to write and work their minds and converse with non-Christian philosophers. They learned with excitement and many thought experiments, but about 2 centuries later they begin to use philosophical terms to argue for the existence of God. There was a shift towards using philosophy as an apologetic for the Christian faith and church. Its from that very long history of philosophy plus apologetic that we really get the Trinity. I think that Plato is where many of the ideas about the Trinity come from, and people began to see his philosophically derived ideas as a kind of shadow or mirror of Jesus the Son, God the Father and the Holy Spirit, but what was a philosophical attempt to derive truths about the nature of God was changed into something else that I don't agree with, mainly because the churches fell into the very common trap of arguing about influence and authority. That ruined things very quickly, allowed politicians to get involved in the dialogue...

Long story short...there is no brief and satisfactory answer.

I concur, Trinity = Philisophical 3 headed Greek monster, trying to read it into scripture, will bring you to a dead end pretty quick !

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Well, the idea of the trinity entered christianity some 300 years after Jesus PBUH was among the people. Jesus, even in the heavily changed, corrupted versions of the Bible found today, never once speaks of himself as God or as part of a trinity. The concept is man made and if one were to ask 10 different christians about it, they would get 10 different answers. That is the problem with made teachings passing as religion.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I tried to explain, the Holy Spirit is a part of God. The Holy Spirit is God's spirit. Just like a human's spirit is a part of the human, God's spirit is part of God. So there is no reason to say "I worship the Holy Spirit", because if you say "I worship the Father", you also implicitly say that you worship the Holy Spirit because that spirit is part of the Father.
The word trinity doesn't exist in the Bible, but the concept could still exist there without being named. And if we find something and it doesn't have a name, we invent a name for it. So the fact that the church invented the name doesn't really impact how true or false the concept is.

Unlike Jesus and his Father who are always in the masculine sense, God's spirit is neuter - KJV Numbers 11:17; KJV Numbers 11:25 - neuter as the word "it". - Psalms 104:30
Some Bible versions have changed neuter "it" to he or him. That ' change ' does Not make a neuter into a masculine - see also Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26 KJV. "it" originally there.
Even in English we speak of a neuter ship or car as a ' she ' although it remains as a neuter.

Who is supposed to be worshipped according to Jesus at John 4:23-24 ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, the idea of the trinity entered christianity some 300 years after Jesus PBUH was among the people. Jesus, even in the heavily changed, corrupted versions of the Bible found today, never once speaks of himself as God or as part of a trinity. The concept is man made and if one were to ask 10 different christians about it, they would get 10 different answers. That is the problem with made teachings passing as religion.

Good point ^ above ^ and Jesus did forewarn about man-made religious ideas - Matthew 15:9; Mark 7:3-5 - being taught as Scripture when Not Scripture.
Especially around the time of Constantine, he helped corrupting Christianity in order to convert the non-Christian pagans to a form of religion they would accept.
Mixing Scripture with non-scripture does Not make man-made traditions as right, but makes those traditions as still wrong.

 

[heksesang]

Well, the idea of the trinity entered christianity some 300 years after Jesus PBUH was among the people. Jesus, even in the heavily changed, corrupted versions of the Bible found today, never once speaks of himself as God or as part of a trinity. The concept is man made and if one were to ask 10 different christians about it, they would get 10 different answers. That is the problem with made teachings passing as religion.

John 1 is older than that, and it does have the first signs which were used to form the doctrine: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
These words are derived from the ideas of Philo, who wrote around the time of Jesus. So I'd say the origins of the trinity doctrine were in place long before the Council decided on it.

Unlike Jesus and his Father who are always in the masculine sense, God's spirit is neuter - KJV Numbers 11:17; KJV Numbers 11:25 - neuter as the word "it". - Psalms 104:30
Some Bible versions have changed neuter "it" to he or him. That ' change ' does Not make a neuter into a masculine - see also Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26 KJV. "it" originally there.
Even in English we speak of a neuter ship or car as a ' she ' although it remains as a neuter.

Who is supposed to be worshipped according to Jesus at John 4:23-24 ?

I am not sure how the gender of the word relates.

He said to worship the Father. But remember that it also says that he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Also the Gospel of John seems to hold a bit to the ideas of Philo, which was that there was a great angel, the one who created the world, who saved Israel from Egypt, and expands on Philo's work (because I don't think this was actually part of the original ideas of Philo) with saying the Word, referring to Jesus, was God.

So there is definitely some confusion which helps lay the foundations for the trinity doctrine.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John 1 is older than that, and it does have the first signs which were used to form the doctrine: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
These words are derived from the ideas of Philo, who wrote around the time of Jesus. So I'd say the origins of the trinity doctrine were in place long before the Council decided on it.
I am not sure how the gender of the word relates.
He said to worship the Father. But remember that it also says that he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Also the Gospel of John seems to hold a bit to the ideas of Philo, which was that there was a great angel, the one who created the world, who saved Israel from Egypt, and expands on Philo's work (because I don't think this was actually part of the original ideas of Philo) with saying the Word, referring to Jesus, was God.
So there is definitely some confusion which helps lay the foundations for the trinity doctrine.

Yes, Jesus was in the beginning - Genesis 1:26, but Jesus was ' Not before the beginning ' as God was before the beginning - Psalms 90:2
According to gospel writer John, Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B
In a family arrangement: equals are brothers, Not father and son.
Since Jesus was a ' chip off the old block ', so to speak, then seeing Jesus was as good as seeing his Father.
Please remember what gospel writer John wrote at John 1:18 A, and at 1 John 4:12
Also, at Exodus 33:20 where it says No one can see God and live. People saw Jesus and lived.
Scripture is also called God's Word - Psalms 119:105 - and who would say Scripture is literally God ?
Jesus was God's Word in that Jesus was God's spokesman teaching us about his Father.
Who is greater according to Jesus' teachings at John 10:29 and John 14:28 ?_______
Also, according to John, doesn't the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still have a God over him _______ - Revelation 3:12

Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their religious theories and philosophies teaching them as Scripture although Not scriptural.
So, Philo's ideas ( even if well meaning ) are Not scriptural.
Gospel writer Luke wrote forewarning us that wrong teachings would be taught as Scripture at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
- 1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[heksesang]

Yes, Jesus was in the beginning - Genesis 1:26, but Jesus was ' Not before the beginning ' as God was before the beginning - Psalms 90:2
According to gospel writer John, Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B
In a family arrangement: equals are brothers, Not father and son.
Since Jesus was a ' chip off the old block ', so to speak, then seeing Jesus was as good as seeing his Father.
Please remember what gospel writer John wrote at John 1:18 A, and at 1 John 4:12
Also, at Exodus 33:20 where it says No one can see God and live. People saw Jesus and lived.
Scripture is also called God's Word - Psalms 119:105 - and who would say Scripture is literally God ?
Jesus was God's Word in that Jesus was God's spokesman teaching us about his Father.
Who is greater according to Jesus' teachings at John 10:29 and John 14:28 ?_______
Also, according to John, doesn't the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still have a God over him _______ - Revelation 3:12

Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their religious theories and philosophies teaching them as Scripture although Not scriptural.
So, Philo's ideas ( even if well meaning ) are Not scriptural.
Gospel writer Luke wrote forewarning us that wrong teachings would be taught as Scripture at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
- 1 Corinthians 8:6

But Philo's ideas are influencing a gospel. So this means that some Christians, the ones behind the Gospel of John, were supporting the ideas of Philo and considered them true enough that they could be part of Scripture.
Which leaves you with two choices that I can see, either accept that Philo's ideas were the truth, or that the Gospel of John is written by someone that wasn't inspired by God and should be considered a false gospel.

Also, no one said father and son are equals. The trinity doesn't teach that; in the trinity doctrine the Father is greater than both the Spirit and the Son. Just because something is split, it doesn't have to be split equally.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But Philo's ideas are influencing a gospel. So this means that some Christians, the ones behind the Gospel of John, were supporting the ideas of Philo and considered them true enough that they could be part of Scripture.
Which leaves you with two choices that I can see, either accept that Philo's ideas were the truth, or that the Gospel of John is written by someone that wasn't inspired by God and should be considered a false gospel.
Also, no one said father and son are equals. The trinity doesn't teach that; in the trinity doctrine the Father is greater than both the Spirit and the Son. Just because something is split, it doesn't have to be split equally.

People always tell me the trinity 3 are equal: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Christians believe as 1 Corinthians 8:6 says that there is but one God, the Father.

The gospel of John says at John 1:18 that No man ( people ) has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus.
If people believe Philo then they believe Philo, and do Not believe John who also wrote 1 John 4:12 that No one has seen God. What does Exodus 33:20 say ?
John also wrote Revelation which John states Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14
So, the trinity doctrine is Not a product of the earliest Christian era. Rather the apostate church - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 - used notions of philosophical origin Not Scripture.
Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their religious theories and philosophies and teach that as Scripture when Not found in Scripture.

 

[jeager106]

URAVIP2ME:
What you wrote is why I can't accept the Trinity Doctrine.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John 1 is older than that, and it does have the first signs which were used to form the doctrine: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
These words are derived from the ideas of Philo, who wrote around the time of Jesus. So I'd say the origins of the trinity doctrine were in place long before the Council decided on it.
I am not sure how the gender of the word relates.
He said to worship the Father. But remember that it also says that he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Also the Gospel of John seems to hold a bit to the ideas of Philo, which was that there was a great angel, the one who created the world, who saved Israel from Egypt, and expands on Philo's work (because I don't think this was actually part of the original ideas of Philo) with saying the Word, referring to Jesus, was God.
So there is definitely some confusion which helps lay the foundations for the trinity doctrine.

.... and who created the confusion?
As far as John 1:1 the same Greek grammar rule applies as found at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B
KJV leaves out the ' a ' at John 1 but adds the ' a ' at Acts 28:6 B

Even after God raised Jesus to heaven, Jesus still called his followers ' my brothers ' - Matthew 28:10
Were they God's brothers, brothers of Almighty God, or became adopted ' sons ' of one Father - Galatians 3:26
All having one Father under the God that Jesus has - Revelation 3:12

 

[Ralphg]

Bunch of highly opinionated stuff follows: It depends upon whose trinity it is. To understand its original purpose keep in mind that Christians believed God was everywhere in everything. The reasoning behind the Trinity derives from Plato, so you'd have to study the Greek philosophers and then also the writings of Jerome and Augustine. This I have not done myself, but the idea of Philosophy was originally to derive true information starting from a small set of truths or axioms. I think the early Christians went on a search to find all kinds of truth about God, believing that God's glory was everywhere all over the world to be gathered from under every rock and spreading leaf; so they naturally became interested in Greek philosophy. Philosophy was a systematic search for ultimate truths and even today is the basis for the subject called 'Logic'. The interest in philosophy (among Christians) began to show about 200AD when they really got serious about it and began to write and work their minds and converse with non-Christian philosophers. They learned with excitement and many thought experiments, but about 2 centuries later they begin to use philosophical terms to argue for the existence of God. There was a shift towards using philosophy as an apologetic for the Christian faith and church. Its from that very long history of philosophy plus apologetic that we really get the Trinity. I think that Plato is where many of the ideas about the Trinity come from, and people began to see his philosophically derived ideas as a kind of shadow or mirror of Jesus the Son, God the Father and the Holy Spirit, but what was a philosophical attempt to derive truths about the nature of God was changed into something else that I don't agree with, mainly because the churches fell into the very common trap of arguing about influence and authority. That ruined things very quickly, allowed politicians to get involved in the dialogue...

Long story short...there is no brief and satisfactory answer.

In Hinduism there was already a Trinity; Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

 

[Ralphg]

Your ^ above ^ understanding of the Triad is not alone, as many others have been taught that.

In Scripture, both God and Jesus are always in the masculine, whereas God's spirit is used in the neuter as 'it' or 'itself '.
- KJV at Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25 God's spirit is in the neuter 'it'.
- KJV at Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26 God's spirit is in the neuter 'itself'.
Greek grammar allows for a neuter to be used in the masculine.
That is also true in English in that a neuter car or ship sometimes is called a 'she' but still remains a neuter it.

Also, according to Scripture, God has No Creator, No Father, No Mother - Psalms 90:2 - God had No beginning.
Whereas, according to gospel writer John, Jesus had a start as the beginning of the creation by God. - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14
So, Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
Jesus is referred to as ' wisdom personified ' starting at Proverbs 8:22. The one speaking there is said to be created.

Also, can we see God and live ? _______ People saw Jesus and lived. - John 1:18; John 6:46; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20

So Jesus is Female and the second person in the Trinity?.....

Jesus is referred to as 'Wisdom personified' => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(wisdom) =>
Sophia (σοφία, Greek for "wisdom") is a central idea in Hellenistic philosophy and religion, Platonism, Gnosticism, Orthodox Christianity, Esoteric Christianity, as well as Christian mysticism. Sophiology is a philosophical concept regarding wisdom, as well as a theological concept regarding the wisdom of the biblical God.

Sophia is honored as a goddess of wisdom by Gnostics, as well as by some Neopagan, New Age, and Goddess spirituality groups. In Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christianity, Sophia, or rather Hagia Sophia (Holy Wisdom), is an expression of understanding for the second person of the Holy Trinity, (as in the dedication of the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople) as well as in the Old Testament, as seen in the Book of Proverbs 9:1, but not an angel or goddess.

To me that means:
1) Father (Creator) = Male
2) Christ the Son (Annointed One) = Female
3) Holy Ghost (soul) = Life

What I've learned from my visions, at this point 'Life' is the 'pivot-point' of 1) Father and - let's just call it for what it obvious wants to be called - 2) Mother.

...((The Magician in me likes this too because he sees how 2 and 3 still can 'turn' (or 'dance') as 2) are 3 words and 3) are 2 words.))

 

[Brickjectivity]

In Hinduism there was already a Trinity; Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

There is also a Druidic sort of trinity that is pre-Christian. I think I have heard of some others, too; plus there is always the 3 legged table.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So Jesus is Female and the second person in the Trinity?.....
Jesus is referred to as 'Wisdom personified' => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(wisdom) =>
Sophia (σοφία, Greek for "wisdom") is a central idea in Hellenistic philosophy and religion, Platonism, Gnosticism, Orthodox Christianity, Esoteric Christianity, as well as Christian mysticism. Sophiology is a philosophical concept regarding wisdom, as well as a theological concept regarding the wisdom of the biblical God.
Sophia is honored as a goddess of wisdom by Gnostics, as well as by some Neopagan, New Age, and Goddess spirituality groups. In Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christianity, Sophia, or rather Hagia Sophia (Holy Wisdom), is an expression of understanding for the second person of the Holy Trinity, (as in the dedication of the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople) as well as in the Old Testament, as seen in the Book of Proverbs 9:1, but not an angel or goddess.
To me that means:
1) Father (Creator) = Male
2) Christ the Son (Annointed One) = Female
3) Holy Ghost (soul) = Life
What I've learned from my visions, at this point 'Life' is the 'pivot-point' of 1) Father and - let's just call it for what it obvious wants to be called - 2) Mother.
...((The Magician in me likes this too because he sees how 2 and 3 still can 'turn' (or 'dance') as 2) are 3 words and 3) are 2 words.))

If Jesus is the 2nd person, and God is the 1st person, who is the 3rd person because it can't be God's spirit.
God's holy spirit is Not a person because God's spirit is Not God's spook/ghost, or God's apparition .
Please notice Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25 because God' spirit is Neuter as " it ". A neuter (it) is neither male nor female. So, No 3rd person is God's spirit - Psalms 104:30
Jesus is wisdom personified at Proverbs 8:22-24; Proverbs 8:25-27; Proverbs 8:29-31.
That does Not make Jesus as female any more than a ship being called a she is a female.
The pre-human Jesus was God's heavenly Son. Jesus is the first Son that God created - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B.

 

[Ralphg]

If Jesus is the 2nd person, and God is the 1st person, who is the 3rd person because it can't be God's spirit.
God's holy spirit is Not a person because God's spirit is Not God's spook/ghost, or God's apparition .
Please notice Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25 because God' spirit is Neuter as " it ". A neuter (it) is neither male nor female. So, No 3rd person is God's spirit - Psalms 104:30
Jesus is wisdom personified at Proverbs 8:22-24; Proverbs 8:25-27; Proverbs 8:29-31.
That does Not make Jesus as female any more than a ship being called a she is a female.
The pre-human Jesus was God's heavenly Son. Jesus is the first Son that God created - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B.

There is something called "the Unknown Daughter" that's the only thing I can come up which would fit here. Obviously she is female but symbolicaly she can be seen as neuter since she is 'unknown' to Father and Son. I've mentioned her here before.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Usually there is no point in arguing about this subject. I am aware that that Koran says that the trinity is false, and I am aware that the watchtower says that it is false. Some Christians have doctrines that they must believe in the Trinity. To me that means followers of those various creeds and institutions don't really have the freedom to consider anything else. Their souls, salvation or lives would be threatened if they did. So there is no point in arguing since they can only explain one possible view of the trinity and can only consider it. They cannot switch sides, churches, etc. The only thing is for everyone to put forward what they think and let it be.

 

[Rajina]

Re: the Trinity, my understanding is that it isn't three separate gods, of course...but rather One God...revealed in three different personas. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

Is there any verse in Bible which clearly says about the idea of trinity? Trinity is the foundation of christianity. But why doesn't God say about Trinity in the bible?

 

[Deidre]

Is there any verse in Bible which clearly says about the idea of trinity? Trinity is the foundation of christianity. But why doesn't God say about Trinity in the bible?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit...mentioned throughout Scripture, but some interpret this still differently, and not necessarily as God being a triune God.

 

[Rajina]

Father , son and the holy spirit are three distinct persons.. Bible stresses the Fact that 'there is only one God'. When Jesus was asked which is the most important commandment, he replied : The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
He never said God is triune or that he himself is God.. He taught us not to worship anybody else other than God. Then how do we know trinity is true?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Father , son and the holy spirit are three distinct persons.. Bible stresses the Fact that 'there is only one God'. When Jesus was asked which is the most important commandment, he replied : The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
He never said God is triune or that he himself is God.. He taught us not to worship anybody else other than God. Then how do we know trinity is true?

Correct ^ above^ Jesus directed worship only to his God - John 4:23-24
1 Corinthians 8:6 mentions there is only one God
The resurrected heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12
So, the concept of a trinity, or triune God, truly stems from ancient Babylon ( Nimrod) and Not from Scripture.
As the ancient people migrated from ancient Babylon they spread their religious-myth ideas on a global scale, and that is why we see today many overlapping similar religious-myth concepts and ideas spread world wide throughout the earth today into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
Those religious-myth concepts ( trinity, conscious dead, fire in the grave/hell ) are often taught as Scripture although Not really found in Scripture.