Christians Preferred: Are only Literalists True Christians™?

[Left Coast]

How are you going to determine what God means whether what he said was literal or not?

That's a good question. You know who could answer that if he wanted (assuming he exists)? God. Yet he never does. Instead he let's a bunch of humans speak for him and provide relentlessly contradictory information about what he supposedly wants or thinks. Terrible communication for an all-powerful deity, right?

This is common error to see figures of speech, poetry, parables and then assume no Scripture is meant to be literal and can mean whatever you want.
As far as cutting off body parts that cause sin, people should know that sin is a heart problem, you can cut off all your parts and still sin, that’s why a person needs to be born again and receive a new heart.

Please take it up with the author(s) of the Gospels. Matthew 5:29

 

[Subduction Zone]

Plus, the subject has already been discussed and just a distraction.

No, it demonstrates that at best that you have a very flawed understanding of the Bible. You refuse to discuss it because you have no answers to it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Another falsehood that you say for
Example: “my own prejudice” really? You haven’t a clue. My testimony “confirmation bias” another, you have no idea. These are all comments based on what? You haven’t experienced or heard God for yourself so you don’t believe it possible?’ That’s my thoughts.

No, your posts keep confirming this. You have not "experienced God for yourself" either. That is merely an unjustified claim that you make.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, your posts keep confirming this. You have not "experienced God for yourself" either. That is merely an unjustified claim that you make.

Ok brother, have fun, see you at the end

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok brother, have fun, see you at the end

But you won't.

Dead is dead.

 

[ElishaElijah]

But you won't.

Dead is dead.

If people didn’t believe Jesus when He was right in front of them, there is no way people will believe the testimonies of believers unless the Holy Spirit draws them. Especially not on a forum

 

[halbhh]

Does the Bible Teach that the Earth is Flat?

Heh heh...


The myth of the flat Earth, or the flat earth error, is a modern historical misconception that European scholars and educated people during the Middle Ages believed the Earth to be flat rather than spherical.[1][2]

The earliest clear documentation of the idea of a spherical Earth comes from the ancient Greeks (5th century BC). The belief was widespread in the Greek world when Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of Earth around 240 BC.
...
According to Stephen Jay Gould, "there never was a period of 'flat Earth darkness' among scholars, regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now. Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the Earth's roundness as an established fact of cosmology."[5] Historians of science David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers point out that "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference".

Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell says the flat-Earth error flourished most between 1870 and 1920, and had to do with the ideological setting created by struggles over biological evolution. Russell claims "with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the Earth was flat", and ascribes popularization of the flat-Earth myth to histories by John William Draper, Andrew Dickson White, and Washington Irving.[2][7][8]

Myth of the flat Earth - Wikipedia

Plus, the subject has already been discussed and just a distraction.

Yup -- or more precisely, stuff like this: "If you study the Bible, especially in the original Hebrew, the Flat Earth verses stick out." isn't actually the simplistic misunderstanding or poor reading or awareness it would seem, but more likely in my guess just a repetition of propaganda, where the motive is quite simple: to say anything and everything possible to attempt to paint a disparaging picture of Christianity, however false any one accusation is.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If people didn’t believe Jesus when He was right in front of them, there is no way people will believe the testimonies of believers unless the Holy Spirit draws them. Especially not on a forum

The problem is that there is no reliable record of what Jesus said and did during his lifetime.

Perhaps there was a very good reason that people did not believe him.

Your "testimony" is no different from the testimony of other religions, whether live or on a forum. For the same reason that you do not believe them they do not believe you. That is why it is important to find a rational way to test one's beliefs. I think that fear is the reason that believers refuse to test their beliefs. I want to know if I am wrong. I think that most believers are only looking for excuses to beieve.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The problem is that there is no reliable record of what Jesus said and did during his lifetime.

Perhaps there was a very good reason that people did not believe him.

Your "testimony" is no different from the testimony of other religions, whether live or on a forum. For the same reason that you do not believe them they do not believe you. That is why it is important to find a rational way to test one's beliefs. I think that fear is the reason that believers refuse to test their beliefs. I want to know if I am wrong. I think that most believers are only looking for excuses to beieve.

You are wrong, who would look for excuses to believe? More like excuses not to believe so a person wouldn’t feel guilty or accountable to anyone and could be free to do whatever they wanted.
“As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭103:12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Why didn’t he say North as from the South? If he thought the earth was flat he wouldn’t say this. Not only that Job says He hangs the Earth on nothing. But that’s it and not sure why you would want to continue a conversation, I already know the Truth and what I have experienced.

 

[leroy]

With permission of @ElishaElijah,


Evolution vs. creationism threads tend to attract only non believers on the evolution side even so most people who identify as Christian are not creationists/literalists. But it seems there is a lot of potential debate between the two Christian camps. So, please, discuss/debate.

The problem is that evolution (and other terms) are usually poorly defined in this kind of debates…..

My position

1 Organisms change and adapt, this this is a fact

2 We all share a common ancestor / we evolved from other animals, this is an almost certain fact, but I would say that there is room for reasonable doubt

3 Blind (eyeless) creatures can evolve eyes through the process of random variation and natural selection. (I don’t think there is good evidence for that )

If anyone disagrees with me please let me know

 

[ElishaElijah]

The problem is that evolution (and other terms) are usually poorly defined in this kind of debates…..

My position

1 Organisms change and adapt, this this is a fact

2 We all share a common ancestor / we evolved from other animals, this is an almost certain fact, but I would say that there is room for reasonable doubt

3 Blind (eyeless) creatures can evolve eyes through the process of random variation and natural selection. (I don’t think there is good evidence for that )

If anyone disagrees with me please let me know

Agree with some of what you say but I have yet to see a Hate has no home here sign at a lions den.

 

[halbhh]

Agree with some of what you say but I have yet to see a Hate has no home here sign at a lions den.

That was a bit subtle! if you mean this --

Evolution would only lead to humans that most often were at war, seeking to win territory and eliminate other tribes/gene pools, who would prefer to kill, given a neutral situation, for benefit.

Just like a lion will kill cubs not his own.

The evolutionary outcome.

And we seem to have be altered a bit from that natural outcome of evolution -- we seem to have built into us now on an inherent emotional (hardwired) level to often feel (and do!) compassion and aid to people outside our tribe.
Even though this has zero benefit to our own gene pool success in our local in-tribe where evolution favors putting all our aid and protection and benefit on just our own people, so as to have superior reproductive success over time for our own gene pool group.

But we have also a strong inherent tendency working against that. Which doesn't seem much an evolutionary outcome does it.

Interesting fact: it was discovered mid 20th century that most drafted troops intentionally shoot at the ground or over the head of the enemy, trying to not kill them. Only a relatively small portion of troops would intentionally shoot to try to hit the enemy troops. Most instead seemed to prefer to just make the enemy troops flee, unharmed.
I'll post a link for that.

 

[halbhh]

"Grossman was committed to helping the U.S. military become more effective in fighting wars. He revealed that the Army has to train its members to kill because most people do not want to kill other human beings. He cited a study conducted by the Army after World War II that discovered that in combat only 15 to 20 percent of soldiers fired their weapons and an even smaller percentage fired to kill. ..."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...08e742-ae26-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html

 

[ElishaElijah]

That was a bit subtle! if you mean this --

Evolution would only lead to humans that most often were at war, seeking to win territory and eliminate other tribes/gene pools, who would prefer to kill, given a neutral situation, for benefit.

Just like a lion will kill cubs not his own.

The evolutionary outcome.

And we seem to have be altered a bit from that natural outcome of evolution -- we seem to have built into us now on an inherent emotional (hardwired) level to often feel (and do!) compassion and aid to people outside our tribe.
Even though this has zero benefit to our own gene pool success in our local in-tribe where evolution favors putting all our aid and protection and benefit on just our own people, so as to have superior reproductive success over time for our own gene pool group.

But we have also a strong inherent tendency working against that. Which doesn't seem much an evolutionary outcome does it.

Interesting fact: it was discovered mid 20th century that most drafted troops intentionally shoot at the ground or over the head of the enemy, trying to not kill them. Only a relatively small portion of troops would intentionally shoot to try to hit the enemy troops. Most instead seemed to prefer to just make the enemy troops flee, unharmed.
I'll post a link for that.

“I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-26‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I found that God explains humanity and life in Scripture, that we were created in His image and that’s why we are different from animals.

 

[alypius]

I'm not sure how much more literal you can get than literally cutting off body parts that cause sin?

But isn't the text literally 'right hand should cause you to stumble' (If we're talking about literal interpretation, then doesn't right hand mean, well, right hand)?

 

[sojourner]

"If you study the Bible, especially in the original Hebrew, the Flat Earth verses stick out." isn't actually the simplistic misunderstanding or poor reading or awareness it would seem, but more likely in my guess just a repetition of propaganda, where the motive is quite simple: to say anything and everything possible to attempt to paint a disparaging picture of Christianity, however false any one accusation is.

The problem is that your guess is incorrect. In Genesis 1, the Hebrew word translated “firmament” (heavens/sky) is Raqiya. That word literally means “a hammered-out bowl.” So the Biblical view is that the sky is a rigid dome. A dome will only cover a disc; it will not cover a sphere. Therefore the Bible implies that the earth is a flat disc. That’s hardly surprising, given that this view is consistent with the ancient cultures from which the Biblical creation myths were taken.

That’s not to attempt to disparage the Bible, and it’s not propaganda. It’s the result of study of the Bible and ancient cultures. It just is what it is.

 

[sojourner]

But isn't the text literally 'right hand should cause you to stumble' (If we're talking about literal interpretation, then doesn't right hand mean, well, right hand)?

But the reading deserves so much more than a surface, literalistic reading. “Right hand” carries cultural meaning that may not be apparent to the average reader. The right hand was the hand of honor. “If your honor causes you to sin...” it’s part of the turnaround Jesus presents in the Sermon on the Mount. In fact, Matthew’s entire Gospel is a turnaround. The meek inherit. The grieving are blessed. The Samaritan, not the religious leader, was the good neighbor.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The problem is that your guess is incorrect. In Genesis 1, the Hebrew word translated “firmament” (heavens/sky) is Raqiya. That word literally means “a hammered-out bowl.” So the Biblical view is that the sky is a rigid dome. A dome will only cover a disc; it will not cover a sphere. Therefore the Bible implies that the earth is a flat disc. That’s hardly surprising, given that this view is consistent with the ancient cultures from which the Biblical creation myths were taken.

That’s not to attempt to disparage the Bible, and it’s not propaganda. It’s the result of study of the Bible and ancient cultures. It just is what it is.

If that’s true why does Psalm 103 say as far as the east is from the west so far has he removed our transgressions from us. You couldn’t say north is from south. Certainly you wouldn’t think the earth was flat

 

[sojourner]

If that’s true why does Psalm 103 say as far as the east is from the west so far has he removed our transgressions from us. You couldn’t say north is from south. Certainly you wouldn’t think the earth was flat

Sure you would. Ever look at a flat map? There are four particular directions. East is at one end and West at the other — as far away as one can get. On a globe, though, east and west meet arbitrarily.

 

[ElishaElijah]

1. Sure you would. Ever look at a flat map? There are four particular directions. East is at one end and West at the other — as far away as one can get. On a globe, though, east and west meet arbitrarily.

   On a round globe when you travel East and continue they never meet still traveling East, not so North to South. Go east on flat map and fall off a cliff at the end or a point where your transgressions wouldn’t be covered and Gods mercy would be finite, but that’s not the case.