Christians Should Be Ashamed

[groovydancer88]

This makes me very tired.

We already have and can continue to debate for hours on whether Terri wanted to die or not. Like Rex says, we'll never know. I just wish people wouldn't demonize other people for their stance on this very controversial subject. Whether they wanted her alive or not, they wanted what they thought was best for her. I personally feel that it was right to allow her to pass on to heaven, but I can respect the opinion of others who feel differently. Nobody here is a bad person for believing either way, and I wish they wouldn't be accused of such.

 

[Green Gaia]

I'm unsure of the intent of this thread, J4L. It is your wish to demonize all who do not agree with your view of this issue? An issue off which NONE OF US can draw an accurate and informed conclusion, nor should we because it is not up to us. The law gives the burden of this decision to the husband alone, we should respect that he knew her wishes and along with the doctors and specialists, made the correct decision. This should never have been a media... and now political... event.

 

[oracle]

Shame is really unecassary. Morals are subjective, and this means that everyones morals are personal, not interpersonal. Also it's the intentions or motives behind a decision that are important.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

'Christians Should Be Ashamed'

Yes, they should! Now who did what, now?

(I imagine it's even worse when it's a person of your own religion trying to tell you to be ashamed, so I apologize to anyone who may have been offended. I hope it's obvious that I'm joking in order to make a point.)

 

[Bastet]

Goodness me...J4L, have you ever heard the expression "you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar"? How about spreading some sugar around...you might find that people will be actually interested in your ideas for action/helping people, if you don't beat them over the head with a frypan first.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

frankly, i really don't see what is the big deal about this feeding tube thing. She was braindead, and she had no hope for recovery. what is the use of keeping something alive that isn't really there? Christians should be ashamed for making this braindead woman the center of the media while condoning the war on Iraq. hmph, pro-life my a**

 

[johnnys4life]

Wow, I can't believe how much misinformation is circulating on the internet concerning this case.
First of all, of course the judge would say the nurse's testimony is incredible. HE HAS AN AGENDA. He was a pro-euthenasia activist from the get-go. Secondly, there is WAY more to the story than any of you may realize, and way more people than any of us could've imagined trying to cover up the truth to suit thier agenda.
The order for her death even comes from someone illegally holding office.

"Greer is not a state judge as other media have misstated. He is a county probate judge—a step up from a town or village justice and has never had legal jurisdiction in the case as he violated state law and failed to qualify for office. He cannot claim to be a de facto judge as he has never held legal title to the judicial office. A public officer must first be a de jure officer or hold title before he can claim to be a de facto officer. In Greer’s case, by failing to qualify, he should not have even appeared on the ballot and was not legally elected. " (The Empire Journal 03/23/05)

You certainly must've heard of the abuses of power Judge Greer has taken in refusing evidence and in defying a supeona of our national Congress. You must have heard of Judge Greer's defiance of the DCF's legal right to investigate abuse as well. According to Attorney George Felos, he and the Judge even discussed what they might do if the DCF took Terri into custody, in a clearly prohibited ex parte communication. Perhaps you have heard of Michael's statement on Larry King Live last week, that

"We didn't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want. ..."

 

[oracle]

Wow, I can't believe how much misinformation is circulating on the internet concerning this case.
First of all, of course the judge would say the nurse's testimony is incredible. HE HAS AN AGENDA. He was a pro-euthenasia activist from the get-go. Secondly, there is WAY more to the story than any of you may realize, and way more people than any of us could've imagined trying to cover up the truth to suit thier agenda.
The order for her death even comes from someone illegally holding office.

"Greer is not a state judge as other media have misstated. He is a county probate judge—a step up from a town or village justice and has never had legal jurisdiction in the case as he violated state law and failed to qualify for office. He cannot claim to be a de facto judge as he has never held legal title to the judicial office. A public officer must first be a de jure officer or hold title before he can claim to be a de facto officer. In Greer’s case, by failing to qualify, he should not have even appeared on the ballot and was not legally elected. " (The Empire Journal 03/23/05)

You certainly must've heard of the abuses of power Judge Greer has taken in refusing evidence and in defying a supeona of our national Congress. You must have heard of Judge Greer's defiance of the DCF's legal right to investigate abuse as well. According to Attorney George Felos, he and the Judge even discussed what they might do if the DCF took Terri into custody, in a clearly prohibited ex parte communication. Perhaps you have heard of Michael's statement on Larry King Live last week, that

"We didn't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want. ..."

The thing is, is the tone of the title and the arguement "Christians should be ashamed". I think this tone is a little unecassary. Shame is really an abusive word.

 

[Israel]

"'Michael Schiavo tried to kill his wife. Terri's nurse said so.'

If you want to believe this you must also believe that practically person involved in Mrs. Schiavo's care conspired to cover up attempted murder. "

The fact is, we have already shown conspiracy, specifically regarding medicaid fraud. Five years ago, Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to have Terri moved to hospice and put on medicaid; To do this, the patient must be certified as terminally ill (legally, having two weeks or less to live) as determined and signed by two physicians (http://floridamedicaid.acs-inc.com/XJContent/Hospice Services?id=000000000283 and see also Title 42, Chapter 418, Code of Federal Regulations; Title XIX of the Social Security Act; Chapter 409 of Florida Statutes and Chapter 59G, Florida Administrative Code).

Since Terri could have lived another twenty or thirty years and did live until she was starved to death by her guardian, Michael Schiavo could find only one doctor in the whole state of Florida who would sign on the line that she was terminal. Thus she was never certified as terminally ill. Greer also ruled to allow her to be put on medicaid despite knowing that Michael Schiavo was recieving a million dollar malpractice settlement specifically earmarked to pay for Terri's treatment (Washington Post and various other papers). Further, Michael Schiavo specifically put Terri in Woodland Hospice, where George Felos (name sound familiar? That's because the man was also Michael Schiavo's lawyer!) was Chairman of the Hospice Board of Directors. In his position as Chairman, Felos controlled Terri's admission to the hospice, her treatment, and also recieved a portion of the medicaid funding until he was forced to resign by public outcry.

Nor is this the only case of fraud on the Felos record, the US Federal Government has been investigating and auditing the hospice and uncovered $8.9 million in fraud! (see the document at http://www.theempirejournal.com/hospice_fraud.pdf). Even according to the government, this is fraud! And it should be further noted that after placing Terri on medicaid at Woodland so that George Felos got his share of the money, Felos and the other lawyers for Michael Schiavo then made campaign contributions to Judge Greer. Some contributions to Judge Greer were even made the day after he rejected important appeals by Terri's parents. This is all a matter of public record, you can see for yourself at the Florida government's website: http://election.dos.state.fl.us/campfin/contrib.asp#both

Make sure to change the search box to search all elections and enter Michael Schiavo's lawyers as contributors:

Hamden Baskin III

Felos & Felos

Deborah Bushnell

Gyneth S. Stanley

Steven Nilsson

Beth Wilson

As to another argument put forward:

"'A feeding tube is nourishment, not life support.'

Not according to Florida law"

INCORRECT at the time.

Felos then petitioned Judge Greer to have Terri's feeding tube removed (May 1998). At that time, a feeding tube was NOT ARTICIAL LIFE-SUPPORT. I repeat, May 1998 was the time Felos filed the petition with Judge Greer, there was no question that the action was ILLEGAL and MURDER. The law was only even proposed to be changed by State Sen. Gus Bilikaris in April 1999, over a year after Felos had already begun trying to have Terri starved!

The amendment to the law was not approved until October 1st, 1999. Look at the public records, Felos files to starve in May 1998, while it was ILLEGAL to do so, and fights in court for nearly a year and a half for what was then by law MURDER.

So who is the man who proposed the change in law? Gus Bilikaris was not only a state senator, but also a member of the hospice board of directors, which was chaired by George Felos. Gus Bilikaris is also familiar with Judge Greer, having made campaign contributions to Judge Greer.

To summarize, the patient is moved illegally to a hospice under George Felos control. Felos files for medicaid to get money, despite the million dollar settlement. Greer approves filing, Greer recieves campaign donations from Schiavo lawyers.

Felos files to have Terri starved. Then Felos co-worker Gus on the hospice board of directors proposes to change the law so that Felos filing is no longer illegal. Amendment approved, Terri starved.

Conspiracy? Quid pro quo?

 

[Israel]

frankly, i really don't see what is the big deal about this feeding tube thing. She was braindead, and she had no hope for recovery.

First, there are plenty of Doctors who would dispute that she is braindead. The mere fact that she moves and makes sounds deny the traditional definition of PVS; The new definition put forward by a few that PVS may include involuntary or reflexive action on the scale shown in videos of Terri Schiavo is not accepted by most in the medical community. Scores of affadavits have been filed in Greer's courtroom to this effect.
As hospice nurses have testified, she was recieving no treatment at all, nor had she been for years and years (see testimony of Terri's nurses Nora Lynn Wagner, Carla Iyer, and others ). Without treatment, nobody gets better.
So then we have to ask if she had had treatment, could she have improved? Do PVS patients recover? Kate Adamson certainly did. She was completely paralyzed from a stroke. After being declared in a persistent vegetative state and having her feeding tube removed, Kate was starved for eight long days. Kate filed an affadavit with Judge Greer as to the extreme agony of her starvation while in a PVS, and also about her recovery. Kate's husband fought to have her feeding tube reinserted and witnessed her miraculous recovery with treatment! "Persistent Vegetable" Kate Adamson is now a public speaker on disabled rights and an author.

 

[Melody]

Actually, I've been a bit puzzled by the "Christian" response to all of this. I'm hearing a lot of anger and frustration from people who believe God is in control. I'm also puzzled that these same people have been praying for God to save Terri Schiavo, but not once have I heard "but thy will be done, Lord."

Perhaps this was God's will...for reasons we can't see.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

i agree with you melody. It probably was the will of some higher power.

 

[johnnys4life]

Well this has turned into a discussion on Terri Schiavo, and although my husband had some great information and everyone ought to read his posts (I don't think I have ever seen anyone try so hard, coming home from work so many times just to go to work several more hours gathering information and emailing officials, you guys would really respect Israel if you knew him) anyway, this has gone off topic a bit - I admit I went with it for a while there. But I stand by what I said before:

"If you do (do good deeds or want to), pm me, I will tell you some ways I know of to do good in the world. I want some help, I need some fellow Christians who love God enough to prove it with action and not just pretty words. "

So far I have got one pm from a very nice non-Christian who asked me exactly what kind of things I had in mind, and I told him. I think you would all be surprised to know what it was I told him as I am surprised sometimes how little you all know of me or my plans. No one else has asked me, but I am still willing to write back to anyone who does. Could I have asked more nicely, probably, but, I think I'm someone who is easily misunderstood, especially on forums where you cannot hear my tone of thinking so to speak. When I say I am sick of hypocricy, I don't expect anyone who isn't a hypocrit to take offence at that. If you are already doing good in the world, GREAT! Let me in on it, I am always looking for more good causes to get involved with in whatever way I'm able.

Bastet, you say I would catch more flies with honey, I suppose you are right, I was often spanked as a child for being tactless and apparently it had no lasting effect whatsoever. But I don't think you are a hypocrit, anyway, you seem to be a pretty straightforward type of person. I liked the picture of you with your hair all cut off for the kids with cancer, that hopefully gave other people a good idea.

My point was that I have known a lot of Christians for a lot of years. I even went to 4 different Bible studies at once for a while, and while we all got along and talked about the Lord and had decent personal lives, there was one area we were all seriously lacking in and that was doing things for others.

I always thought that since we were under "grace" and not the law, it didn't matter how much good we tried to do in the world. One verse I came acrossed that really struck that idea down for me was talking about What is religion? The answer? Pure and undefiled religion is helping widows and orphans in thier distress, considering the plight of the poor, the helpless, those who can't speak up for themselves, those who suffer. That's what Christianity is all about, not a faith that talks but a faith that lives and walks.

And it is hard to do what's right in the world when you are constantly faced with opposition, heartache, being unable to bear the suffering of others without becoming sad and disheartened, and that's why I asked for cooperation and help. Not because I hate anyone, but because I hate it when we don't try.

 

[johnnys4life]

Reading the above posts, I do feel the need to make one more comment about MY response to this case, as a Christian. Not only was one woman deprived of her rights on so many accounts due to a disability, but this is going to make an impact on society that NONE of us are planning for. The people involved have much darker plans for society than simply disposing of one disabled woman.

Michael's lawyer, George Felos has written two books, one on religion and one on euthenasia. In them he describes hallucinations, voices telling him he is "powerful" concerning the deaths of other people, and he truly believed he had caused a plane to crash, killing innocent people, just by willing it. He is OBSESSED with death, he said himself that the only time anyone is truly beatiful is when they are dead or dying. He is either insane or posessed.

I think if you realized how many people there are out there who consider this a landmark case BECAUSE of the fact that it opens more doors to euthenasia and the conscious, willful killing of the disabled, even when their own wishes are questionable, to say the least, you would all be upset.

Euthenasia was a HUGE part of what slanted people's minds to ignoring the horrors of the holecaust. Germany was one of the first places where euthenasia of the sick and elderly routinely took place under the approval of their leader. You should all read the book Murderous Science, it's a history of society in Nazi Germany pre- and during the holecaust, and the role euthenasia played. It's not even written by anti-euthenasia advocates, but by historians.

The fact is that there are people pushing the same ideas, ideas that we can judge another person's value based on thier abilities and contributions to society, and dispose of them as we see fit. George Felos is one of those people, judge Greer is another. If this were simply about "assisted suicide" when it comes to respecting a TERMINALLY ILL person's wishes, I would not have said anything about it. In fact I was born and raised in Oregon, where assisted suicide was legalized, and never opposed another case while I was there. The fact is that this case has crossed a line and there is now no turning back. The fact that the law has been misinterpreted in such a way as to allow a healthy NOT terminally ill, but brain damaged woman to be brutally starved to death (and we know it hurt her, since the nurses had to give her more and more narcotics for the pain, and one lawyer even claimed to see blood running from her eyes and mouth, and the fact that even the most biased of news sources said her tongue was so dried out she could not even take the communion wafer offered her as a last rite) this has opened a door to a very frightening world.

Had she written SOMETHING to say that she wished to die, given some cue, said SOMETHING that could be varified by someone OTHER than her controlling husband and his next of kin, I wouldn't have cared in the slightest, it would've been her body, her decision. The fact that we don't know that she EVER wanted that, let alone that she wanted it at the time, and some of her friends and all of her other family members swear she said quite the opposite, means something to me, but nothing to the courts. That is injustice right there.

And would it have mattered, really, if she had spoken up and told everyone she wanted to live? Not legally, anymore. The fact is her husband was her legal guardian, and he very well may have had the right to overthrow her wishes even if she had been able to state them clearly. A sad comment on our world.

Do you think I am overeacting saying that a world where the disabled are thrown into homes of murder rather than of healing and care is not far off? Well consider this, there is, right now at least one country I know of where disabled children are left to die after birth. The same thing happens here with abortion of late-term, viable retarded children. And I look at this country in Europe, thier laws and history, and at us. We have the same attitudes. We want to say that "quality of life" not value of human life, is what matters. If we allow the law to decide whose lives are "quality" and whose are not, we are treading on dangerous ground.

So yes, I am angry. But not at any one individual in particular. I'm angry at injustice. I'm angry at the fact that I wouldn't be here right now if the people who saved my life in the hospital after a suicide attempt 4 years ago had thought like judge Greer. I had to be hooked to machines that breathed for me. I had to have machines clean the poison from my body. Without them, I would've died, and I don't ever want someone else to be able to decide for me that my life isn't worth living, not even when I believe it myself. God's will for me, was to have someone tell me that yes it was!

This case is opening up doors that should never be opened, and what does the Bible say about those who run to shed innocent blood? Very un-Christianlike.

 

[painted wolf]

can you pick and choose which verses of the Bible are important and which ones aren't?

Isn't that the source of most of the flavors of Christianity? Picking and choosing what verces you do and don't want to follow?

How about wearing cloths made of poly-cotton blends? Its forbiddin in the bible.

anyway, the whole Teri thing annoys me. Who is talking about the poor who get taken off life support because they can't pay. Teri had 15 years of political bull-pucky. If the 'moral' people fighting for Teri were genuine and not politically motivated why don't we hear about the rest?
Thousands of people have had the 'plug pulled' in that 15 years, but not a peep about them. They don't make headlines.:tsk:
The whole thing makes me sick. Politicians using the misfortune of a stranger for thier twisted benifit.

wa:do

 

[Sk8Joyful]

people have been praying for God to save Terri Schiavo, but not once have I heard "but thy will be done, Lord."

People, responsible for Terri's murder, had no interest in "Thy will be done, Lord".

Had they been, they would have PRAISED :yes: GOD, by -
1. allowing Terri to live...
2. encouraging her, to raise her voice as to the truth of what really happened to her, to put her in that persistent state-of-mind.
3. And most importantly, they would have championed :yes: Terri, to Heal, and live joyfully... at peace.

It is for each soul's Salvation, as well as causes like these, that Jesus Christ said "Come, follow me... "

 

[Sk8Joyful]

frankly, i really don't see what is the big deal about this feeding tube thing.
She was braindead, and she had no hope for recovery.

First, there are plenty of Doctors who would dispute that she is braindead.
The mere fact that she moves and makes sounds deny the traditional definition of PVS; The new definition put forward by a few that PVS may include involuntary or reflexive action on the scale shown in videos of Terri Schiavo is not accepted by most in the medical community. Scores of affadavits have been filed in Greer's courtroom to this effect.

As hospice nurses have testified, she was recieving no treatment at all, nor had she been for years and years
(see testimony of Terri's nurses Nora Lynn Wagner, Carla Iyer, and others ).

Without treatment, nobody gets better.

So then we have to ask if she had had treatment, could she have improved? Do PVS patients recover? Kate Adamson certainly did.
She was completely paralyzed from a stroke. After being declared in a persistent vegetative state and having her feeding tube removed, Kate was starved for eight long days. Kate filed an affadavit with Judge Greer as to the extreme agony of her starvation while in a PVS, and also about her recovery.
Kate's husband fought to have her feeding tube reinserted and witnessed her miraculous recovery with treatment! "Persistent Vegetable" Kate Adamson is now a public speaker on disabled rights and an author.

Amen.
:clap
And hundreds of other Kate Adamson's live, helpful and happy lives...

 

[Father Heathen]

If I ever end up in a perpetual vegetative state, I hope no bible thumping vultures will try to forcefully prolong it. I hope I would mercifully be allowed to die with dignity.