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Christians: The thief on the cross

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't insist at all, but I'll post some thoughts for you in case you're interested.

I believe it is. It's a commandment, not a suggestion. It's the way a believer enters into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ.

So baptism is a pledge?...correct.
For the remission of sin?....correct.
A covenant?....no.

Baptism is what I just said it is. It's the first ordinance of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As for a dying thief getting into Heaven, Jesus never promised him Heaven. Paradise is not Heaven. The fact that Jesus told the thief they'd be together in Paradise that day, and yet come Easter morning, He told Mary He hadn't yet been to Heaven indicates that they are not one and the same. Besides, how do you know whether the thief was baptized or not? You don't. Check in at any federal prison anywhere in the U.S. and you'll find plenty of convicted felons who'd been baptized.

Why on earth would I think that?

You haven't been drawing lines....and when you do....

The Carpenter did say baptism is needed.
He also said His baptism is of fire.

Obviously...He spoke of something that is not a practice of hand.

A dousing of water represents....what?
And having done so.....you have a ticket to heaven?

The baptism of John is of water.
The Carpenter's baptism is something else.

The Carpenter saw it....in the words of the thief.
The Carpenter's response was not a promise...or allowance.
Simply a statement of a pending event.

When you are baptized the doing so is a promise on your part....
the remission of sin.
It is not forgiveness....or a promise from God.

It is only your change of mind.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You haven't been drawing lines....and when you do....

The Carpenter did say baptism is needed.
He also said His baptism is of fire.

Obviously...He spoke of something that is not a practice of hand.

A dousing of water represents....what?
And having done so.....you have a ticket to heaven?

The baptism of John is of water.
The Carpenter's baptism is something else.

The Carpenter saw it....in the words of the thief.
The Carpenter's response was not a promise...or allowance.
Simply a statement of a pending event.

When you are baptized the doing so is a promise on your part....
the remission of sin.
It is not forgiveness....or a promise from God.

It is only your change of mind.
Sorry, I have a hard time getting much out of your posts, giving your writing style, so rather than continuing to go around in circles, I'm going to bow out of further discussion at this point.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
This thread is in reference to baptism.

The story of the thief on the cross is a very powerful demonstration of Christ's love and compassion for humanity. But it has always been a story put forth as an example of how NT baptism might not be for salvation. The story, from Luke 23, goes like this, starting in verse 39:
Those who believe that baptism is not for salvation often use this story as evidence of that belief - the implication being that, if this thief did not need to be baptized, then neither do I. However, I find it hard to agree with that for 2 reasons:

1. This happened before Christ's death burial and resurrection, and therefore, before NT baptism even took effect as a part of salvation. So whether he was baptized or not is irrelevant. It wasn't until after Christ's death was the New Covenant initiated, having, as Paul puts it, nailed the Old Law to the cross.

2. This is a specific incident - a one-time occurrence of Jesus personally telling someone face-to-face that they would be saved. This does not happen today! Christ does not come down from heaven and point out individuals publicly as being saved. So, this specific mode of salvation does not apply to us today.

For these two reasons, and perhaps others, the thief on the cross story seems to be the exception, rather than the rule. Any thoughts or comments?

Strength & Honor,
There is a misunderstanding about these scriptures.
First, Jesus said; Truely I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise. Notice that the comma is after today, and not after the word you. Many theologians recognize this should be this way, because Jesus himself did not go to heaven for forty days, so the evildoer could not have been with Jesus in paradise that day, Acts 1:3.
Now about baptism. The Bible tells us that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous, Acts 24:15, and a resurrection of all those in the memorial tombs, John 5:28,29,so this evil doer did not need to be baptized. There will be hundreds of millions of unrighteous and unbaptized people resurrected. This evil doer will be one of them. This evil doer will be resurrected back onto the earth, a paradise earth. God's purpose is to have this earth filled with perfect people, living forever. That was God's purpose when He created Adam and it is still His purpose, Gen 1:26-28, Isa 55:11, Isa 45:18, Ps 37:29.
So that God's will for the earth could be accomplished, Jesus came to earth to become a CORRESPONDING RANSOM for all mankind who would put their trust in him, 1Tim 2:5,6. The corresponding means that Jesus corresponded to Adam, was perfect just like he was, so Jesus could gain back what Adam lost, everlasting life for all mankind, Rom 5:14-19.
The Bible many times mentions heaven for people. The ones who go to heaven will be Kings and Priests, they will be Co-rulers with Jesus, Rom 8:17. Notice these are ti be ADOPTED as SONS of GOD, becoming GOD'S CHILDREN, Rom 8:14-16,23, Rev 20:4-6.
This is the same group that have been sealed by God, Rev 7:4. This group is compared to the great crowd, Rev 7:9, which group no man can number. The small group that will be kings and Priests are a little flock, as Jesus said, Luke 12:32. This Little Flock will number 144,000, which is a little group when compared to the great crowd, Rev 14:1-5, 5:10.
Of course the evil doer will be part of the great crowd that will be resurrected onto earth, Acts 24:15, Ps 37:29, Isa 45:18.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I don't believe we are saved by our works. However, I also believe that Jesus clearly tells us, and shows us by His example, that we ARE TO BE BAPTISED. Why anyone would clearly and definitely DISOBEY His instructions is beyond me. I mean, it's simply not difficult to be baptised, so just do it, because Jesus said to do it. Obviously it's an important part of our salvation process.

Catholics teach that there is such a thing as "Baptism by intention."

Catholics also make room for “Baptism by intention”. Basically, if someone would have chosen baptism but could not (either they do not live in place where baptism is available or they die before they can obtain baptism) they are not barred from salvation.
Catholic Friday: Is Baptism Essential for Salvation? | 52 Prayers - Richmond, VA Church
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't believe we are saved by our works. However, I also believe that Jesus clearly tells us, and shows us by His example, that we ARE TO BE BAPTISED. Why anyone would clearly and definitely DISOBEY His instructions is beyond me. I mean, it's simply not difficult to be baptised, so just do it, because Jesus said to do it. Obviously it's an important part of our salvation process.

Catholics teach that there is such a thing as "Baptism by intention."

Catholics also make room for “Baptism by intention”. Basically, if someone would have chosen baptism but could not (either they do not live in place where baptism is available or they die before they can obtain baptism) they are not barred from salvation.
Catholic Friday: Is Baptism Essential for Salvation? | 52 Prayers - Richmond, VA Church

There are no rituals that save.

The Carpenter did ask His own disciples their commitment to His baptism,
and His cup.

They said....'yeah'.

The other ten disciples were dismayed when hearing if it ...later on...
after the asking came and went.

His salvation is not of ritual....not by hand....
His salvation is by His word....His parables.
Without them, He cannot see His reflection upon your mind and heart.

His baptism is of fire.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I didn't say that baptism saves us. What I said is that Jesus said and illustrated that we are to be baptised, so we should do it.

It's a matter of obedience. And if one is OPPOSED to baptism, we should ask WHY - what is their motivation?

An opposition to baptism is a sign of something out of kilter.

Jesus says do it. So do it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I didn't say that baptism saves us. What I said is that Jesus said and illustrated that we are to be baptised, so we should do it.

It's a matter of obedience. And if one is OPPOSED to baptism, we should ask WHY - what is their motivation?

An opposition to baptism is a sign of something out of kilter.

Jesus says do it. So do it.

He was referring to the mindful part.

That you are baptized by water is a cleansing ritual.
There was a time when sin was thought to be physical.
You could wash it away before entering the temple.
You could transfer it to an animal and have it die with your sin.
(see how Mose did it....it was later called scapegoating.)

That you participate in a congregational setting is fine....pronouncing your personal commitment before your fellowman.

His baptism is of fire....of spirit.
You can use all the water you want.
But without the branding....are you His?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
He was referring to the mindful part.

That you are baptized by water is a cleansing ritual.
There was a time when sin was thought to be physical.
You could wash it away before entering the temple.
You could transfer it to an animal and have it die with your sin.
(see how Mose did it....it was later called scapegoating.)

That you participate in a congregational setting is fine....pronouncing your personal commitment before your fellowman.

His baptism is of fire....of spirit.
You can use all the water you want.
But without the branding....are you His?

Alrighty then.

That's your point. My point is this - Jesus said to be baptised. So we should do it.

I don't see how our two positions are contradictory.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Alrighty then.

That's your point. My point is this - Jesus said to be baptised. So we should do it.

I don't see how our two positions are contradictory.

Well...would you be insisting on the water trick?

Or taking hold of the cup?
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Not sure what you mean.

Jesus said be baptised. So be obedient and be baptised.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Not sure what you mean.

Jesus said be baptised. So be obedient and be baptised.

Jesus said a lot of things.

As in chapter 3, of the book of John it is reported He (the Carpenter) went to Judea with His disciples and baptized there.
In chapter 4, it is noted...He himself did not baptize.

If the ritual was important to Him...it seems odd He would refrain unto others.

And it is John (in the gospel of Luke) who reports...
I baptize you with water....But One comes after me who will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

Jesus may have received by the hand of John, a baptism of water.
At that moment there seemed an insistence of it.

But afterwards, the Carpenter's speech and practice was not the same.

How is it you did not notice as you read the gospels?
Didn't anyone in your congregation mention it?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Everything that Jesus said and did is not recorded in the Gospels. So though there are not recorded specific instances of Jesus baptising others,we simply don't know how many or who He baptised, or if He baptised others at all. We do know, however, that He Himself was baptised.

He never, not once, told His followers to refrain from baptism or from baptising others. The practice of the first generation of Christians was to baptise and be baptised. The New Testament is filled with examples of just this, as well as directives to be baptised.

So why would someone who COULD be baptised refuse to be baptised? Please answer this question.

Acts 8:35 Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Acts 10:47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 9:18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Acts 8:12 When they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. [Mentioned again in verse 16.] 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 16:15 And when [ Lydia ] and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Romans 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Cor. 12:13 By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

1 Peter 3:20 . . . In the days of Noah . . . the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is abov e all, and through all, and in you all.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word , 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? . . . 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

As I've stated repeatedly - baptism does not save us. But clearly baptism is an important step of obedience.

So - be baptised. It's not like it's difficult to do - or to understand.


 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Everything that Jesus said and did is not recorded in the Gospels. True......and you have inside info? So though there are not recorded specific instances of Jesus baptising others,we simply don't know how many or who He baptised, or if He baptised others at all. We do know, however, that He Himself was baptised.

It is specially noted....He did not baptize.
You can quote scripture all you want....
but if it makes a statement point blank....contrary to your position...too bad.

He never, not once, told His followers to refrain from baptism or from baptising others. I didn't say he did.The practice of the first generation of Christians was to baptise and be baptised. The New Testament is filled with examples of just this, as well as directives to be baptised.
.

That His disciples carried on as did John...doesn't mean they understood.

I mentioned it in a previous post.
You said you did not understand.
Are you able His baptism and His cup?
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Let me ask you a question, Thief.

Why would a Chritian specifically choose NOT to be baptised? Is it right for a Christian to reject baptism by water?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Let me ask you a question, Thief.

Why would a Chritian specifically choose NOT to be baptised? Is it right for a Christian to reject baptism by water?

So you prefer to extreme reaction than to answer my question first?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
No.

I am going to write a book one day, I swear I am, and the title of the book will be "So What's Your Application?"

To me, a belief is nothing more than a bunch of garbled words if it doesn't have a practical application - which is why I never argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

My point is this - I think there's enough biblical and traditional evidence to clearly point out that we do not fully know how baptism in it's various states plays into the picture of salvation.

So - what's our application? As Christians, do we embrace baptism as an act of obedience? Why or why not?

As for your question, here's the question I saw:

Are you able His baptism and His cup?

Sorry - but I don't understand that question at all. That's why I didn't answer it. I wasn't going to call you out on the insensibility of it, but if you insist...
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
No.

Sorry - but I don't understand that question at all. That's why I didn't answer it. I wasn't going to call you out on the insensibility of it, but if you insist...

See Matthew 20:20.....

The cup and the baptism are one in the same.

His disciples did not understand.
But they did understand...later on.

And you will note....position in the kingdom is not His to give.
Water tricks do not save.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I don't believe I've stated that baptism saves. In fact, I specifically stated that we cannot be saved by our works. Baptism would be a work.

However, my question is still unanswered. What's your application? Do you refuse baptism by water? If so, why? Do you choose to be baptised by water? If so, why?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't believe I've stated that baptism saves. In fact, I specifically stated that we cannot be saved by our works. Baptism would be a work.

However, my question is still unanswered. What's your application? Do you refuse baptism by water? If so, why? Do you choose to be baptised by water? If so, why?

No refusal...different perspective....
Did you even bother the reference in Matthew?
 
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