• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

christians, what do you think of Genesis 6:1-8?

Shermana

Heretic
Take it to the science and religion board if you want to get into the specifics of Plate Tectonics THEORY, I'll meet you there after Sabbath, and this time actually be prepared to discuss the claims that I quote instead of writing if all off as "Creationist hogwash" as if that somehow excuses you from debunking the specific objections and claims.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Take it to the science and religion board if you want to get into the specifics of Plate Tectonics THEORY, I'll meet you there after Sabbath, and this time actually be prepared to discuss the claims that I quote instead of writing if all off as "Creationist hogwash" as if that somehow excuses you from debunking the specific objections and claims.


Please learn this word

Pseudoscience you seem to spend alot of time on it.

this is a classic case of the dangers of religions slowing down progress in humanity
 

allright

Active Member
If Job is using "sons of god" to refer to angels, please explain why he doesnt use the same words in Job 4:18 when speaking of angels
 

Shermana

Heretic
If Job is using "sons of god" to refer to angels, please explain why he doesnt use the same words in Job 4:18 when speaking of angels

Because the context is "His messengers". Either way, the Septuagint predates the Masoretics. If you can understand the concept, the "Sons of G-d" are his "messengers". Otherwise, you interpret Job 2:1 as a large group of prophets who have council with G-d that Satan is included as part of. I dare you to find a SINGLE commentary that translates Job 1:6 and 2:1 as humans.


Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (EBR 1902)
— Lo! in his own servants, he trusteth not, and, his own messengers, he chargeth with error:
Young's Literal Translation (YLT 1898)
— Lo, in His servants He putteth no credence, Nor in His messengers setteth praise.'
There's a major difference between the case itself, we have nominative "Sons of G-d", beings in themselves, and "His messengers", a possessive descriptive entity.
 
Last edited:

allright

Active Member
Because the context is "His messengers". Either way, the Septuagint predates the Masoretics. If you can understand the concept, the "Sons of G-d" are his "messengers". Otherwise, you interpret Job 2:1 as a large group of prophets who have council with G-d that Satan is included as part of. I dare you to find a SINGLE commentary that translates Job 1:6 and 2:1 as humans.

They arent prophets, they are Gods people coming together to hear Gods word. The exact same language is used by Samuel and Joshua to the nation of Israel to present themselves before the Lord to hear Gods word, not in Heaven on earth
In Deutoromy 31:14 God uses the same language to tell Moses and Joshua to present themselves at the tabernacle to receive a charge

Satan can walk into any church service

And quit misquoting, its says Satan came among them, not that he was part of the group.

Genesis also uses the same word for angels as Job 4:18

Dont waste my time with commentaries
 

Shermana

Heretic
The exact same language is used by Samuel and Joshua to the nation of Israel to present themselves before the Lord to hear Gods word, not in Heaven on earth
Oh really? Get the exact quote. And it says "Sons of G-d" right? It doesn't matter if it says they present themselves, that's not the issue here.

In Deutoromy 31:14 God uses the same language to tell Moses and Joshua to present themselves at the tabernacle to receive a charge
Talk about misquoting Scripture, Deut 31:14 says nothing regarding "Sons of G-d". Nice try. Humans can present themselves to G-d just like Angels, this doesn't mean to say that it's exclusive to one class.

And quit misquoting, its says Satan came among them, not that he was part of the group.
It doesn't say that Satan wasn't one of them, in the Hebrew it merely mentions that Satan went with them, whether he was one or not. Either way, the Septuagint, which predates the Masoretic text, calls them Angels directly.

In fact, the exact word is that Satan went "Among" them. "Among".

8432 [e]bə·ṯō·w·ḵām.בְּתוֹכָֽם׃among

Yes, "Among". This can mean "a part of that group". So you cannot say with certainty whether or not he was one of them "among" as in "part of" or just alongside.

Genesis also uses the same word for angels as Job 4:18
"Messengers" is a description of what Angels are. "Messengers" is not their being. It is their purpose/job. "Sons of G-d" is their being. Once again, "Angel of" or "His angels" is a posessive case, which implies a relation and purpose. "Sons of G-d" is a nominative as a stand alone indication of what they are.
Dont waste my time with commentaries
Don't waste YOUR time? Okay, so you admit that NO ONE ELSE shares your opinion on this that you can find? Good. Meanwhile, I have many ancient commentators who do agree, if you think you know better than them and the Septuagint as if you know the language better, good for you! Hopefully you will admit that the Septuagint predates the Hebrew on this. I'll take the Septuagint over your unbacked opinion.

Now back to Jude, care to quote Jude 1:6? That's not even the part that quotes 1 Enoch. And 2 Peter 2:4 while you're at it.

Basically, your argument that humans can present themselves before the Father somehow disqualifies Angels from doing so in context, does not fly. My interpretation is backed by the earliest known copies of the "Old Testament' and virtually everyone who has commentated on it until Medieval times (disregarding the Sethian Gnostics), yours has.....none. I'll bet you didn't even know that the Septuagint predates the Masoretic until I told you.
 
Last edited:

allright

Active Member
Don't waste YOUR time? Okay, so you admit that NO ONE ELSE shares your opinion on this that you can find? Good. Meanwhile, I have many ancient commentators who do agree, if you think you know better than them and the Septuagint as if you know the language better, good for you! Hopefully you will admit that the Septuagint predates the Hebrew on this. I'll take the Septuagint over your unbacked opinion.

What I meant was I want proof from Scripture, not other mens opinions

Commentaries that say sons of God in Job are not angels
KJV Bible Commentary
Mathew Henry Commentary
Vernon McGee Commentary
Coffman Commentary

Im sure there are many others.

To quote " The Holy Spirit knows the word for angels and if he had meant angels he would have used it."

Now back to Jude, care to quote Jude 1:6? That's not even the part that quotes 1 Enoch. And 2 Peter 2:4 while you're at it.

These verses are used as an example of angels rejecting authority.
 
Last edited:

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If Job is using "sons of god" to refer to angels, please explain why he doesnt use the same words in Job 4:18 when speaking of angels

Doesn't Job [4v1] show, Not Job, but that Eliphaz is the one speaking?
In other words, a different person is speaking in chapter 4.

Eliphaz is the one who concluded Job did something wrong in both chapters 4 and 5. Eliphaz ridicules Job [chap 15] even to the point of falsely accusing him of all sorts of crimes- Job chapter 22.

Satan conveniently used Eliphaz to further Satan's goal that men are helplessly weak without integrity.

Please also notice who is speaking at Job [38v1] isn't God speaking there?
Verse 7 mentions 'sons of God'. [godlike ones Hebrew: beneh' Elohim]
Targums, Aramaic has 'the bands of angels' there.
Greek Septuagint has 'my angels' there.
Job [1v6;2v1] sons of God.

Psalm [89v6] mentions heavenly angels as being the 'sons' of God.

Psalm [104v4] mentions God's angels as 'spirits' as does 1st Kings 22v21.
 
Top