Christians; why do I need the band aid; if my wound is cured?

[Shermana]

That is, if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

You mean eyes to see your particular interpretation. I can just as easily say only those with eyes to see will understand that the entire message of the gospels and John's epistles and Revelation is about keeping true to the commandments of God.

Whoever has the holy Spirit does not need to be taught to know the Lord, because He is indwelling them and teaches them Himself

Looks like absolutely no Christians since the days of the Jerusalem Church save a few Messianic Jews have had the Spirit then. But plenty falsely claim to have it, in what may in fact amount to blaspheming it.

whoever seeks righteousness and follows after the LORD

Which means those who obey his commandments. Converts are included as children of Abraham.

You really don't know any further purpose of the Law? The Law brought us to Christ; and by it Christ came.

That's just babble and slogans. Why don't you tell us what that means specifically.

John the baptist came to return the people to pure observance of the Law, from the heart.

That's exactly what Jesus came to do too!

Sin should be avoided. Read Galatians chapter 5. The nature of sin is clearly laid out in the new covenant scriptures. My view of sin does not differ from the scriptural viewpoint.

Galatians 5 explicitly says that if you sin you will not enter the Kingdom.

Same goes for Hebrews 10:26-29 which directly uses the word "Sin", and says those who continue to sin will have nothing but fiery indignation to look forward to.

The definition of "Sin" in 1 John 5:3 is "lawlessness", or breaking Mosaic Law. John was writing to other Jews, the term "lawlessness" meant what they were familiar with.

Revelation says that the saints are those who obey the commandments of God.

Hence, those who aren't obeying the commandments of God are only kidding themselves and feeding their egos.

Jesus's teachings was never meant to be anything more than a way of Torah-life for the HOUSE OF ISRAEL and a mode of repentance. Jesus is the King of the Jews.

The parable of the Dinner feast is that there will be plenty who show up, but won't be wearing the right clothes. And they'll waltz on in thinking they're allowed in just because they were invited, but they are wearing abominations for garments, and they'll be getting a nasty surprise with wailing and gnashing of teeth. You don't have to believe Jesus, but I do.

 

[Dinner123]

You mean eyes to see your particular interpretation. I can just as easily say only those with eyes to see will understand that the entire message of the gospels and John's epistles and Revelation is about keeping true to the commandments of God.

Keeping the commandments of God and fearing God is the whole duty of man. I don't claim anything contrary to that.

There is something everyone should understand. The Gospel accounts are histories of events that took place mostly during the time of the old Covenant. The new Covenant didn't come, except by the shedding of the blood of Jesus. (Matthew 26:28)


And there are new commandments for the new Covenant.

1. Commandments Jesus gave while in the flesh. It is easy to tell who Jesus is talking to by the words, and the context. Whether those only under the Law, or those in the new Covenant. For example, when He spoke of being born again/anew (John 3) He was clearly speaking to those living during the new Covenant. Moses never said to be born again. And it's obvious He was speaking to those under the Law when He told the Lepers that He cleansed to show themselves to the Priests. (Matthew 8:4)
2. Those commandments that Jesus gave by the holy Spirit unto the apostles; after He ascended into heaven.
   
   John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
   
   Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Looks like absolutely no Christians since the days of the Jerusalem Church save a few Messianic Jews have had the Spirit then. But plenty falsely claim to have it, in what may in fact amount to blaspheming it.

Whoever has the holy Spirit will be taught by the holy Spirit; unless they don't want to listen. I'm not saying they'll know everything, or that they won't need instruction at all. They do, but no one has to teach them specifically "know the Lord" if they are filled with his Spirit. God will surely teach them about Himself. So, we all need the holy Spirit if we don't have it.

That's just babble and slogans. Why don't you tell us what that means specifically.

Jesus claimed the scriptures speak of Him. It's types and shadows of spiritual realities. The Law was God's way of teaching humans of spiritual things; including teaching us about Jesus. And Jesus was born under the Law. So He came to us in the flesh by the Law.

Jesus's teachings was never meant to be anything more than a way of Torah-life for the HOUSE OF ISRAEL and a mode of repentance. Jesus is the King of the Jews.

John taught the doctrine of repentance before Jesus came. Yet, you say Jesus came only for a mode of repentance and to restore the Law? Through repentance; forgiveness could already be obtained before Jesus came; for those who obey the Law. Read Psalms 51 and Ezekiel 33:11. Jesus came for far more than restoring the Law. The new Covenant came through the blood sacrifice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

John taught the doctrine of repentance before Jesus came. Yet, you say Jesus came only for a mode of repentance and to restore the Law? Through repentance; forgiveness could already be obtained before Jesus came; for those who obey the Law. Read Psalms 51 and Ezekiel 33:11. Jesus came for far more than restoring the Law. The new Covenant came through the blood sacrifice.

Why would the "New Covenant" matter to people who were never under the "Old Covenant"?

 

[Dinner123]

Why would the "New Covenant" matter to people who were never under the "Old Covenant"?

It's a means of salvation for one thing. The Messiah would be for a Covenant(the new Covenant) and for a light to the gentiles. To turn them from darkness to light. From idols to the living God.

 

[Shermana]

It's a means of salvation for one thing. The Messiah would be for a Covenant(the new Covenant) and for a light to the gentiles. To turn them from darkness to light. From idols to the living God.

So why does it say that the new Covenant is for Israel and Judah?

 

[Dinner123]

So why does it say that the new Covenant is for Israel and Judah?

I've already answered this. Yes it is for Israel, but you make the mistake of assuming that means it can't be for Gentiles also. So to learn the nature of the new Covenant read what all the prophets say about it.

 

[Shermana]

I've already answered this. Yes it is for Israel, but you make the mistake of assuming that means it can't be for Gentiles also. So to learn the nature of the new Covenant read what all the prophets say about it.

Who else speaks of the New Covenant besides Jeremiah, and perhaps Isaiah?

If you agree that gentiles are to be part of Israel and Judah, then that means they would follow the same culture and Law as Israel and Judah, no way around it. When Jeremiah was told that the Law would be written on their hearts, you think he was being told of some totally different "Law" than what he was used to?

 

[Dinner123]

P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Who else speaks of the New Covenant besides Jeremiah, and perhaps Isaiah?

If you agree that gentiles are to be part of Israel and Judah, then that means they would follow the same culture and Law as Israel and Judah, no way around it. When Jeremiah was told that the Law would be written on their hearts, you think he was being told of some totally different "Law" than what he was used to?

It says it is not according to the old Covenant. So, it is not the Law you are speaking of. What do the epistles speak of? He that is led of the Spirit is not under the Law. And, not of the letter but of the Spirit. The Letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Jesus died unto the Letter; even becoming accursed according to the written Law. According to it, everyone who hangs on a tree is accursed of God. But, it is the holy Spirit that raised Him back to life. So, the Law in the heart is (basically) the holy Spirit. Whoever is led of the holy Spirit has the righteousness of the Law fulfilled in them. Not the OLDNESS of the ritual worship; which were meant to teach people of spiritual things. But, what does Jesus say? "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem,(ritual worship done at Jerusalem according to the Law) worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." The righteousness of the Law is fulfilled by submission to the Spirit and the washing of the blood of Jesus.

 

[Shermana]

P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }
It says it is not according to the old Covenant. So, it is not the Law you are speaking of. What do the epistles speak of? He that is led of the Spirit is not under the Law. And, not of the letter but of the Spirit. The Letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Jesus died unto the Letter; even becoming accursed according to the written Law. According to it, everyone who hangs on a tree is accursed of God. But, it is the holy Spirit that raised Him back to life. So, the Law in the heart is (basically) the holy Spirit. Whoever is led of the holy Spirit has the righteousness of the Law fulfilled in them. Not the OLDNESS of the ritual worship; which were meant to teach people of spiritual things. But, what does Jesus say? "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem,(ritual worship done at Jerusalem according to the Law) worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." The righteousness of the Law is fulfilled by submission to the Spirit and the washing of the blood of Jesus.

No, the only thing it says about "not being like the old" is that it will be directly written into the hearts of men and not have to be taught, it specifically explains the difference. Anything else is reading something into it that's not there, defies logic, and is perhaps merely convenience for those who don't like the idea of having to obey the laws, but the text says nothing about the law being anything less. It just says that it won't have to be taught. That's all.

Also, your statement:

The righteousness of the Law is fulfilled by submission to the Spirit and the washing of the blood of Jesus.

Makes absolutely no sense. You're saying one doesn't have to do anything, ANYTHING, as long as they believe in Jesus? Even the New Testament strictly opposes such a philosophy. You're basically saying that one can be an adulterer, a murderer, a rapists, a thief, an oath-breaker, and a cheater as long as they believe in Jesus's sacrifice? Sounds like a doctrine of demons to me. Not even PAUL espouses such lunacy. Hebrews 10:26 specifically says those who continue to sin (break the law) after accepting Jesus's sacrifice have nothing but fiery indignation to look forward to. If you're willing to take your chances with fiery indignation because you want to stick to such a ridiculous-but-comforting theology, I can't stop you. I don't even think you care what Jesus says on the matter, that such doers of Lawlessness will be rejected utterly.

But since anyone can read anything they want into something whether the text says it or not, whether it defies basic reasoning, I can see where you're coming from.

 

[Me Myself]

Doesnt the bible said the Torah is eternal?

 

[Shermana]

Doesnt the bible said the Torah is eternal?

Who cares? God can change his mind or something, or the Jews somehow ****** him off so bad that he broke it off and made it non-binding on anyone for all time. At least in Christian-land. It's quite amazing how badly they'll throw God AND Jesus under the bus for their comforting convenience doctrines.

 

[Dinner123]

No, the only thing it says about "not being like the old" is that it will be directly written into the hearts of men and not have to be taught, it specifically explains the difference. Anything else is reading something into it that's not there, defies logic, and is perhaps merely convenience for those who don't like the idea of having to obey the laws, but the text says nothing about the law being anything less. It just says that it won't have to be taught. That's all.

What you say is inaccurate. People need to read it for themselves and pray about it.

Makes absolutely no sense. You're saying one doesn't have to do anything, ANYTHING, as long as they believe in Jesus? Even the New Testament strictly opposes such a philosophy. You're basically saying that one can be an adulterer, a murderer, a rapists, a thief, an oath-breaker, and a cheater as long as they believe in Jesus's sacrifice? Sounds like a doctrine of demons to me. Not even PAUL espouses such lunacy. Hebrews 10:26 specifically says those who continue to sin (break the law) after accepting Jesus's sacrifice have nothing but fiery indignation to look forward to. If you're willing to take your chances with fiery indignation because you want to stick to such a ridiculous-but-comforting theology, I can't stop you. I don't even think you care what Jesus says on the matter, that such doers of Lawlessness will be rejected utterly.

Where did I say you only need to believe in Jesus and do whatever you like? In fact where did I say anything about believing in Jesus in my last post? You know I was speaking of being led of the holy Spirit? If you believe that garbage about doing as you like; then you're woefully ignorant of the nature of the holy Spirit. That word "holy" in front of the Spirit ought to give you a clue as to His nature. He is holy. So, you've misrepresented my words. It isn't the first time.

 

[Dinner123]

Doesnt the bible said the Torah is eternal?

Whoever is born again is the child of heaven and not of this world. The Law was for this world. Did I say it is earthly rituals that taught spiritual realities? Do you really think the tabernacle or the temple can house God? I guess you know it can't. It's typologies and shadows.

 

[Shermana]

What you say is inaccurate. People need to read it for themselves and pray about it.

What I say is very accurate. Your saying it's inaccurate is inaccurate. But yes, people need to read it for themselves and pray about it.

Where did I say you only need to believe in Jesus and do whatever you like? In fact where did I say anything about believing in Jesus in my last post? You know I was speaking of being led of the holy Spirit? If you believe that garbage about doing as you like; then you're woefully ignorant of the nature of the holy Spirit. That word "holy" in front of the Spirit ought to give you a clue as to His nature. He is holy. So, you've misrepresented my words. It isn't the first time.

Then you should have no problem actually explaining your position on the matter. Does the Spirit allow Christians to sin? Do all Christians who claim to believe in Jesus get led by the Spirit?

 

[Me Myself]

Whoever is born again is the child of heaven and not of this world. The Law was for this world. Did I say it is earthly rituals that taught spiritual realities? Do you really think the tabernacle or the temple can house God? I guess you know it can't. It's typologies and shadows.

"Remember those 613 Mitzvot I told you to follow? I was kidding. You will actually be closer to me if you completely ignore all of them that I gave you to follow. Remember when I told you they were all eternal? Part of the joke. Start laugng. Or not, maybe that's optional too. Do you feel any closer to me now?"-God

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

And God created many visions of himself and delivered them unto man, and the angels came and looked and they said "What are you doing?" and God smiled and said "stacking the deck"

 

[Dinner123]

What I say is very accurate.

According to who?

Then you should have no problem actually explaining your position on the matter. Does the Spirit allow Christians to sin?

No, He doesn't allow sin. I'm not sure what gave you that impression. You know they're supposed to be the body of Christ? Do you think Christ will allow sin in His own body? And, if you can sin then why would God chasten people over sins, and why would Jesus shed His blood? So, if we do sin then we need to repent and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That is the true beauty of grace. It gives you a new chance through repentance. But, the false doctrine of grace is the one that claims you can continue on in sin and that's okay, because "Jesus died so that you can sin". As if Jesus would die for sin's sake. No, He died to destroy sin through repentance, because He hates sin, but loves the souls that He created. God will destroy all sin one way or another. Either death or repentance. Because of His mercy, He prefers repentance. Yet, is adamant on the point of death. The natural conclusion of sin is death. Jesus died, so that many would be washed instead of being destroyed. This shows us how deadly serious God is about sin. Even to the death of His own Son, who died for us. And we are not worthy.

Do all Christians who claim to believe in Jesus get led by the Spirit?

No, all Christians who claim to believe in Jesus do not have the holy Spirit. They may think they do, but they can be mistaken. And even if they do have the holy Spirit. That does not mean they are truly submitting to Him and allowing Him to lead them. Seriously, most people make mistakes, and have moments of weakness. Even some of the most sincere followers of Christ.

 

[Shermana]

According to who?

According to me.

Now who is it according that what I say is not accurate? You?

That's right.

I'm just playing your nuh uh game back at you.

No, He doesn't allow sin. I'm not sure what gave you that impression.

Oh, he doesn't allow sin? Well there goes the basic premise that you don't have to worry about the law or your works.

You know they're supposed to be the body of Christ? Do you think Christ will allow sin in His own body? And, if you can sin then why would God chasten people over sins, and why would Jesus shed His blood? So, if we do sin then we need to repent and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Oh, so you agree that God punishes us for sins and that we have to repent and refrain from sin. Looks like you're defeating the premise of your own thread and agreeing with me then!

That is the true beauty of grace.

You mean the true beauty of "legalism".

It gives you a new chance through repentance. But, the false doctrine of grace is the one that claims you can continue on in sin and that's okay, because "Jesus died so that you can sin".

But...that would be....(gasp)....LEGALISM!!!! Oh noes!

And it also kind of implies that sin has to be atoned for with good works.

As if Jesus would die for sin's sake. No, He died to destroy sin through repentance, because He hates sin, but loves the souls that He created. God will destroy all sin one way or another. Either death or repentance. Because of His mercy, He prefers repentance. Yet, is adamant on the point of death. The natural conclusion of sin is death. Jesus died, so that many would be washed instead of being destroyed. This shows us how deadly serious God is about sin. Even to the death of His own Son, who died for us. And we are not worthy.

Okay, so you're agreeing that a Christian must refrain from sin if he wants to make use of Christ's sacrifice. Good, we're on the same page after all! Glad to hear it! Now perhaps we can go further and get into how it says that one should strive for good works to make up for their sins.

No, all Christians who claim to believe in Jesus do not have the holy Spirit. They may think they do, but they can be mistaken. And even if they do have the holy Spirit. That does not mean they are truly submitting to Him and allowing Him to lead them. Seriously, most people make mistakes, and have moments of weakness. Even some of the most sincere followers of Christ.

But moments of weakness have to be atoned for and repented.

 

[Me Myself]

AFAIK repenting for sin and trying to di better next time has always been part of judaism.

Human sacrifice on the other hand I dont think so. (Then again, hopefully?)

 

[Dinner123]

According to me.

Now who is it according that what I say is not accurate? You?

That's right.

I'm just playing your nuh uh game back at you.

Well, I've made my argument already. Up to you to believe or reject it. The Bible IMO speaks for itself.

Looks like you're defeating the premise of your own thread and agreeing with me then!

No, that just means you never really understood me and read things into what I say. And, I've already disproved your point that sin is only against the Mosaic Law.

You mean the true beauty of "legalism".
But...that would be....(gasp)....LEGALISM!!!! Oh noes!

So, you've been listening to "easy believism" doctrine? I don't see why you keep bringing this stuff up to me. Jesus said unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. And Peter said Repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

Now perhaps we can go further and get into how it says that one should strive for good works to make up for their sins.

Explain. What scriptures are you speaking of?

But moments of weakness have to be atoned for and repented.

The only atonement is the blood of Jesus.