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"Christocrats" is politics and religion a dangerous mixture?

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Seyorni said:
The only benign state religion that comes to mind as I contemplate this question existed, till recently, in Tibet.
This may be off-topic, but I wonder if that was because of the wonderful combination of the beauty of its religion and the Dalai Lama. (Hope I got the spelling correct. I keep wanting to spell it 'Llama', and I'm pretty sure that's not right.)
 

opensoul7

Active Member
I think that the inherent nature of a politician is one that is about self service.While under the guise of service for the people.A politician is a job , and they want to keep that job ! so it's lip service to the constituants and shady deals with big buisness.They are willing to do what they know is morally wrong in order to make money or keep their job.The core of a modern American politician is one wthout morals.But we look to these people to make moral decisions on our behalf ?And now we are heading into dangerous territory , because both religious and political leaders understand the power and influence each other holds .They realize that together they can both get what they want,more POWER and more INFLUENCE.A symbiotic relationship driven by greed.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
opensoul7 said:
Here in Ohio we have a large evangelical church named World Harvest.This church was founded by a man named Rod Parsley , who is now pushing his large congregation and others to be immersed in the political arena. He is calling these new politically involved Christians "Christocrats", and urging them to use the power of numbers by involving all Christians to create a new political movement.A movement that will bring God back into the goverment.He has already met with over a thousand pastors and politicians, including president Bush .This movement goes beyond the ten comandments issue , and could one day effect if not destroy the idea of seperation of church and state. Is politics and religion a dangerous mixture? What do you think or feel about "Christocrats" ?
You know...I really believe that the Body of Christ should be the head and not the tail of government. I think that was our forefather's intent, actually.

I have to say...I am fully supportive of this movement. I feel personally convicted on this...and feel that this is the way the Body should be heading...

(Knockout Oh boy...be gentle...tomorrow is my birthday...will happily accept frubals, even if you don't agree with me:D )
 

opensoul7

Active Member
What about your religious beliefs being the head of your life , and you carrying those beliefs with you to the voting booth ? Or to the political platform should you choose to run, BUT it should not be your religious beliefs that are used to get you voted into office!Your faith is a private issue between you and God , not something to be sold for material gain or power.If you are a loving Christian (as example) let that illumination shine through you from God into your life and all you do .You can be Christian and change lives without constant advertisement.I agree to disagree with you on this , Pax&Lux.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
opensoul7 said:
What about your religious beliefs being the head of your life , and you carrying those beliefs with you to the voting booth ? Or to the political platform should you choose to run, BUT it should not be your religious beliefs that are used to get you voted into office!Your faith is a private issue between you and God , not something to be sold for material gain or power.If you are a loving Christian (as example) let that illumination shine through you from God into your life and all you do .You can be Christian and change lives without constant advertisement.I agree to disagree with you on this , Pax&Lux.
I expected as much. :D

My life is very much anchored by my faith in Christ. I'm not defined by my religion.

My daily prayer is that Jesus will take the wheel. Anything good that I achieve...is achieved through Him.

Happily, I agree to disagree as well. Neato thread. If I had any frubals left...I'd dispense you some. :D
 

martha

Active Member
In America we have the right to ...Life....Liberty.....and the Persuit of Happiness.

If in my life journey, my happiness comes from one whom I call God, or Jesus, then I should be able to speak his name and share my joy in Him with others. That is not to say that I should have the right to enforce my belief upon my brothers and sisters.

We are all entitled to our beliefs, for I believe that most religious thinking is based upon the premises of helping one another and uplifting each other. Unfortunately there are certain factions in all religions that tend towards the fanatical. There are those who would impose their beliefs on others, unto death.

Compassion and basic moral behavior should be upheld. I guess what I mean is that each one should be allowed to believe in what they have found to be true as long as that belief doesn't harm anyone else in any way.

We have only that which we have been exposed to, to fall back on. If we are exposed to something new then we might think differently. So why judge anothers faith? It is mostly a matter of life's circumstance, that we believe as we do.

Truly beloved, how do we seperate church, (ones belief and practice) and state? State is of the people by the people and for the people, no? How do we incorporate and represent the people if we subtract their basic beliefs?

As I recall, America was founded by people who were trying to flee from a tyrranical government. This is why the founding fathers tried to formulate a different state of mind here. I know that they were not perfect in their implementation of the thoughts, but they were IMHO, on the right track. Why else would so many people try to come to America? It was the belief in the world, that one could come here and persue Life, Liberty and Happiness. Basic human compassion should rule, not "Religion" or "State", totally!

When I was a little girl, I asked my dad what eutopia was. He said that it was a place, not of this world. I guess he was right, but I will never stop trying to create a eutopia here. I will endeavor to create open dialog and understanding between myself and all whom I encounter, no matter what they believe in. I believe that is our only hope of survival.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
dawny0826 said:
I have to say...I am fully supportive of this movement. I feel personally convicted on this...and feel that this is the way the Body should be heading...

Do you support a Christian theocracy as the Christocrats do with their mission to "bring God back into the goverment"
?

Do you support religious freedom and religious pluralism in America?

You cannot support both.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
dawny0826 said:
You know...I really believe that the Body of Christ should be the head and not the tail of government. I think that was our forefather's intent, actually.

I have to say...I am fully supportive of this movement. I feel personally convicted on this...and feel that this is the way the Body should be heading...

(Knockout Oh boy...be gentle...tomorrow is my birthday...will happily accept frubals, even if you don't agree with me )
I understand what you are saying Dawny, alas :p I cannot agree.

The only part of secular decision making (ie the political arena) that could even come into contact with religion is education, which should not really enter in either unless parents choose to send you to a religious school.

Christian parties seem to be rife in the West at the moment, we've one at every election I can remember and there was quite a militant party at our last election in ?November? (yeah that's how much I cared). They got no votes. about 0.11% of the 1.5 million voters, which is jack all.

What use is religion in Health Care? Legislating on business regulations? Secular Law. This is where Secular Humanism is very handy as it requires no afiliations to religion but still upholds the idea that peoples lives and right to be respected is important. If Christian parties were to have power, smaller groups would lose certain freedoms which to them are important, such as abortion and same-sex couples. Not all Christians feel this way, it is obvious, but the groups who seek power seek it FOR THIS REASON. They see society as declining and seek to stem flow of our moral blood. . .

I agree with these groups in some cases (lack of compassion) but I don't think they practise what they preach, and feel they are really trying to put their thumb in the dyke. Better to wait and rebuild if you feel that way ;)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The last time the church held generalized power Europe descended into the Dark Ages. Progress stopped, then reversed. Life was nasty, brutish and short.

There seems to be an inverse relationship between quality of life and the social influence of religion.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Maize... you are tooooo funny!

Seyorni... the real problem is that once Religion attempts to govern they stop being a religious institution and becomes a political nightmare. Jesus never asked us to change government: we need to stick to changing hearts and leave the government to the bureaucrats.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Maize said:

Do you support a Christian theocracy as the Christocrats do with their mission to "bring God back into the goverment"
?

Do you support religious freedom and religious pluralism in America?

You cannot support both.
I feel that I can, actually.

I totally support religious freedom. There's the whole concept of democracy...in America, we cast votes...we elect our officials...you don't have to agree with me and I don't have to agree with you. I can't force anyone to believe in Christ. And I wouldn't want to.

Yes, I'd like to see God fearing individuals in office. How does this make me unsupportive of religious freedom? I'm simply exercising my religious freedom by voting for those that I'd like to see head our government and I'm sure you'll do the same.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
dawny0826 said:
Yes, I'd like to see God fearing individuals in office. How does this make me unsupportive of religious freedom? I'm simply exercising my religious freedom by voting for those that I'd like to see head our government and I'm sure you'll do the same.

By voting for and supporting those who are against religious freedom, then you yourself are doing the same.

So when these God-fearing people you are supporting are in the government and start writing their religious beliefs into our laws, will you be ok with that? These people don't want democracy, they want a theocracy, they want this to be a Christian nation and for everyone to follow Christianity's rules whether they like it or not. They've already started with in our state.

I don't have a problem with a person of any religion being in a public office as long as they can separate their religious beliefs from the secular laws of this nation. You cannot support people who wish to take away freedoms based on religious beliefs and still support religious freedom.
 

mr.guy

crapsack
Paul Martin (canadian PM) got a ton of flack for passing the gay marriage bill. As a catholic, he was critisized for misrepresenting his church and it's political policy for catholic elected officials. A couple catholic MP's who voted for the bill were denied communion (temporarily, i believe).


IV. POSITIONS OF CATHOLIC POLITICIANS
WITH REGARD TO LEGISLATION IN FAVOUR
OF HOMOSEXUAL UNIONS

10. If it is true that all Catholics are obliged to oppose the legal recognition of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are obliged to do so in a particular way, in keeping with their responsibility as politicians. Faced with legislative proposals in favour of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are to take account of the following ethical indications.
When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic law-maker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favour of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral.
When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is already in force, the Catholic politician must oppose it in the ways that are possible for him and make his opposition known; it is his duty to witness to the truth. If it is not possible to repeal such a law completely, the Catholic politician, recalling the indications contained in the Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, “could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality”, on condition that his “absolute personal opposition” to such laws was clear and well known and that the danger of scandal was avoided.(18) This does not mean that a more restrictive law in this area could be considered just or even acceptable; rather, it is a question of the legitimate and dutiful attempt to obtain at least the partial repeal of an unjust law when its total abrogation is not possible at the moment.


 

opensoul7

Active Member
Churches could face IRS probe
Pastors Parsley, Johnson exploited pulpits to play politics, ministers’ complaint alleges
Monday, January 16, 2006
Mike Harden and Joe Hallett
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
20060116-Pc-A5-0600.jpg
</IMG> ADAM CAIRNS | DISPATCH Eric Williams, senior pastor of North Congregational United Church of Christ, tallies up petitions that ask the IRS to investigate political-campaign activities of two central Ohio churches.
20060116-Pc-A5-0700.jpg
</IMG> The complaint alleges churchsponsored events have showcased Republican gubernatorial candidate J. Kenneth Blackwell.
20060116-Pc-A1-0700.jpg
</IMG> The Rev. Rod Parsley, left, and the Rev. Russell Johnson have been accused of using their churches for partisan politics.



More than 30 local pastors last night officially accused two evangelical megachurches of illegal political activities.

In a rare and potentially explosive action, the moderate ministers signed a complaint asking the Internal Revenue Service to investigate World Harvest Church of Columbus and Fairfield Christian Church of Lancaster and determine if their tax-exempt status should be revoked.

The grievance claims that the Rev. Rod Parsley of World Harvest Church and the Rev. Russell Johnson of Fairfield Christian Church improperly used their churches and affiliated entities — the Center for Moral Clarity, Ohio Restoration Project and Reformation Ohio — for partisan politics, including supporting the Republican gubernatorial candidacy of Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell.

The complaint asks the IRS to seek a court injunction "if these churches’ flagrant political campaign activities do not cease immediately." It was signed by 31 pastors from nine denominations during a meeting last night at the North Congregational United Church of Christ in Columbus and was to be faxed late last night to IRS Commissioner Mark W. Everson.

"For me, it’s church and state, not church in state and I really feel there are some churches in central Ohio crossing that line," said Eric Williams, senior pastor of the host church. "The law allows church involvement in issues. This goes beyond issue-involvement to partisan politics and we’re simply asking the IRS to uphold the law."

Williams and the other signers stressed that they were acting individually and not on behalf of their congregations, whose affiliations include: The American Baptist Churches/USA; the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ); the Episcopal Church in the USA; the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; Judaism; the United Church of Christ; the United Methodist Church; Presbyterian Church, USA; and the Unitarian Universalist Association.

The complaint makes three main allegations:



• That church-sponsored events conducted by Parsley and Johnson have showcased a single gubernatorial candidate — Blackwell.



• That Parsley and Johnson have launched a "partisan-oriented" voter-registration campaign "with the goal of registering 400,000 voters to support Blackwell’s candidacy."



• That Parsley and Johnson have been behind efforts to distribute "biased voter education" materials aimed at solidifying voter support for Blackwell.

Johnson said last night that his church and its affiliate, the Ohio Restoration Project, do not support candidates and he was disappointed to learn about the complaint.

"It’s sad to see the religious left and the secular left forge an unholy alliance against people of faith," Johnson said. "We have invited people to pray, to serve and to engage, and candidly, we will not be intimidated or bullied by these folks."

In a statement e-mailed to The Dispatch last night, Mark Youngkin, spokesman for Parsley, did not directly address the allegations. But he said the World Harvest Church, Center for Moral Clarity and Reformation Ohio are separate nonprofit ministries "who are committed to full compliance with all applicable federal tax laws governing" the organizations.

"Voter registration has been encouraged — without regard to political affiliation — from diverse communities, including predominantly urban neighborhoods in Toledo and the Miami Valley," he said.

The IRS complaint, launched by members of mainline Judeo-Christian denominations, represents a deepening concern that leaders of the evangelical religious right are mounting an assault on the separation of church and state.

John Green, a University of Akron authority on religion and politics, said the complaint is extraordinary because it was filed by pastors rather than watchdog groups that routinely monitor church and state issues.

"This complaint is detailed and complex enough that I think the IRS is going to say, ‘We better look into this,’ " said Green, author of Religion and the Culture Wars.

Jack Seville, Ohio conference minister of the United Church of Christ, was among those asking the IRS to investigate.

"I would raise a question about any church, be it of the left or the right, that would endorse a candidate or ask its members to vote only for a specific candidate on the basis of its religious or moral values," Seville said.

"There were a number of people within my denomination who were framers of the Constitution. That’s why alarm bells go off when I see churches becoming directorial instead of letting the individual church member make up his or her own mind."

Rabbi Harold Berman of the Columbus synagogue Tifereth Israel, who also signed the complaint, said: "There are some Jewish groups that cross the lines of church and state, and I’ve spoken out about that as well. It’s a violation of the law if we want to be tax exempt."

Marcus Owens, a Washington, D.C., tax attorney and director of the IRS tax-exempt division from 1990 to 2000, said that IRS investigations of churches typically involve theft, but examinations of churches for playing politics are becoming more common.

Owens, who helped the clergy draft the IRS petition, said they had extensively documented the alleged political activities of Parsley and Johnson and their affiliated organizations.

"You have a number of churches and charities involved with a number of road trips for Mr. Blackwell, all of which seem to be aimed at gaining him visibility for his political campaign," Owens said.

Blackwell, who often carries a Bible to GOP events, has actively courted Christian right voters and became a champion for many of them by leading the successful campaign to ban same-sex marriages through a ballot issue in the November 2004 election.

The complaint cites nine instances when Blackwell was featured at events by the churches or their entities. During an October gathering at the Ohio Statehouse orchestrated by Reformation Ohio and led by Parsley, the televangelist called upon supporters of his $38.5 milliona-year church and affiliated operations to sign up 400,000 voters statewide. Blackwell shared the dais with Parsley.

"Man your battle stations," Parsley commanded attendees, who had been bused Downtown from his World Harvest Church. "Ready your weapons. Lock and load. Let the reformation begin."

The University of Akron’s Green said the "most problematic allegation" in the IRS complaint involves preferential treatment accorded Blackwell by Parsley, Johnson and their affiliated organizations.

Marci A. Hamilton, a professor of constitutional law at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law in New York City and an expert on the separation of church and state, said she was surprised by the pastors’ complaint.

"There are very few instances where anybody’s ever been turned in on this," she said. "Even though the laws are on the books, it’s rare that the law is enforced."

During the last 15 years or so, Hamilton added, churches have had "a tacit agreement" to look the other way and not criticize each other for political activities. But, she said, that appears to be changing as televangelists and conservative evangelical churches flex their muscles in the political arena.

"Those who have been in favor of separation of church and state have been pretty quiet, and it may be because they couldn’t get hold of the microphone. The agenda has been set by the religious right for so long."

Owens, who is representing a pacifist California church being audited because its former pastor delivered an anti-war sermon, said the number of investigations has grown dramatically of late, particularly under the Bush presidency.

"I think historically there were about 20 audits a year, and the number now is up to 50 or 100," he recalled from his 25-year tenure at the IRS, including 10 as head of its tax-exempt arm.

Owens said the jump in the number of church investigations has occurred because, since 2004, audits no longer require high-level approval in the IRS, and can be initiated by revenue agents or their subordinates.

"It is like doing away with the grand jury and giving authority to the cop on the beat," he said. "On its face, it really smells and suggests that there is something very wrong with how the IRS selects cases for review."

Supporters of Owens’ client church, All Saints Episcopal, of Pasadena, say that the IRS singled out the church for preaching against President Bush’s prosecution of the war in Iraq. [email protected] [email protected]

A update for y'all
 

opensoul7

Active Member
this article deals with two threads , this one and "religious lip service" what do y'all think about it ?
 
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