Christ's sacrifice in vain?

[sojourner]

The path is not important.
Reaching HOME IS.

I couldn't disagree more! It's precisely the journey -- the process -- of learning how to live into our righteous state, learning how to tear down our walls, learning to accept ourselves as Christ accepts us -- that is of utmost importance.

Reaching home? We've already been reconciled by the Incarnation. We no longer have to worry about getting home. Christ has brought us there.

 

[sojourner]

It is the central tenet of Christianity that God sent his only begotten son amongst mankind as a ransom for man’s sins. This should have meant that sin in mankind, which entered mankind through the original sin of Adam in disobeying God (and eating the forbidden fruit), the wages for which was death, would have been cleansed by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This should have resulted in everlasting life for mankind since then. However, it appears to me that the ransom of Christ was hijacked by the Church which said that mankind would be assured of everlasting life only if it believes in Jesus Christ. Has Christ’s sacrifice been in vain?

No, the sacrifice was not in vain. The sacrifice displays Jesus' loyalty to the truth in the face of scary and overwhlming odds. Had he "cut and run," his teachings would never have been validated. But, being willing to be hung for one's convictions is a display of on'es belief in those convictions as truth worth dying for.

This is not saying that the sacrifice was necessary for salvation, or called for by God. God did not ask for the sacrifice. Humanity did.

 

[K.Venugopal]

and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

This is more comforting for a heathen like me. At least John has not reported here that I need to believe. Here it’s all about Karma. (I can hear my friend Sandy Whitelinger fume about disingenuous quotations.)

 

[K.Venugopal]

I can accuse you, and I am, of being ill-motivated when you take only one part of Scripture and exclude pertinent information from other verses to make a perverted point.

There is an irony here, Sandy, which you might miss. This is indeed THE accusation of non-Christians (read Churchians) like me about Church inspired Christians. They take just one scripture, or maybe two, ignoring all the other innumerable scriptures of mankind, to make their (perverted?) point that truth is only what is written in the Bible. Maybe devils like me who quote the scriptures are giving you a taste of your own medicine.

Before the moderators decide that I have declared war on Christians, let me tell them and all Christians who are reading this that declaring war on Christians would tantamount to declaring war on myself for I consider myself a Christian though I belong to no Church. Nay, I think the Churches are only hanging on to the letter of Christ and not the spirit.

 

[K.Venugopal]

No, the sacrifice was not in vain. The sacrifice displays Jesus' loyalty to the truth in the face of scary and overwhlming odds. Had he "cut and run," his teachings would never have been validated. But, being willing to be hung for one's convictions is a display of on'es belief in those convictions as truth worth dying for.

This is not saying that the sacrifice was necessary for salvation, or called for by God. God did not ask for the sacrifice. Humanity did.

Here we are talking of Jesus, son of God. Even Bush is not the "cut and run" type. Many ordinary folks have hung for their courage of convictions. Jesus came for our salvation. He was, apparently, sent by God for this express purpose. A sacrifice was in the offing all along. But finally we have to get the act together ourselves. We have to believe. It seemeth more to me that Jesus was teaching about the divinity in man - much more than a mere sinner.

 

[rocketman]

1 John 3:8, "He that doeth sin, is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. In this thing the Son of God appeared, that he undo the works of the devil."
The son of God, it appears, did not undo the works of the devil. He left it to us, the sinners, to do so by believing in him, Christ.

We overcome by putting our trust in him. The reason this works is becasue he has already overcome the devil and qualified to supercede him here on earth when the time is right. Note that we don't overcome the devil with our own effort. We overcome by the blood of the lamb (sacrifice of Jesus) .

Can we add a single thing to Jesus sacrifice? No, nothing. It's done. All that's left is for us to accept it on our behalf, so that which has been overcome applies to us. Remember, God won't force anyone to accept it.

Has any believer of Christ survived beyond the span allotted to sinners? It appears the only person who somewhat believed in Christ was Christ himself, because he shrugged off death and lived, not eternally, but for 40 days.

Friend, a scripture here and there will only make for a long thread short on answers. I suggest you read the New testament slowly and carefully, so you have some idea of these very basic concepts before you put one up in isolation. For this one have a look at Revelation and the resurections etc.

As to your original question, do you now see that you can offer God nothing in return?

 

[Popeyesays]

Friend Venu,
The price was 30 gold coins for which Jesus was betrayed.
However, nothing goes in vain. There are a few who have achived salvation by following the path, Jesus showed. More are achieving to certain degrees by following small bits and pieces of his teachings and slowly and surely after many lives they will reach HOME.
The path is not important.
Reaching HOME IS.
Love & rgds

It was thirty SILVER coins-shekels are silver. Check it out for yourself in the Bible. Thirty silver pieces.

Regards,
Scott

 

[tomspug]

I'd attempt to explain, but I think that Paul is far more eloquent.

Nonetheless, I think the misunderstanding you have comes from a lack of existential perspective. It is very crucial to the resurrection of Christ that the acceptance of it is a choice in the same way that sin (the whole reason Christ was there in the first place) was a choice.

I guess the argument would then be why doesn't God force salvation on people, even if they don't believe in it? Of course, then faith would be worthless, not to mention free will.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Popeye & others Sorry for writing gold in place of silver. [Though in the present day gold is more valuable]
Sojourner - You say the PATH is important not reaching home. Then we are not talking about the same thing. Your concept of home is not clear to me.
BUT if you state that there exists only one PATH/WAy to salvation; then you are closing youself to the myraid possibilities existence hjas to offer till date to get back to it.
Love & rgds

 

[K.Venugopal]

BUT if you state that there exists only one PATH/WAY to salvation; then you are closing youself to the myraid possibilities existence has to offer till date to get back to it.
Love & rgds

This is the crux of the matter. To the best of my knowledge, it is only the Hindu culture that has distilled the messages of its myriad religions and stated that though the truth is one, its expressions are varied. The Semitic culture of just 3 religions, in spite of obvious kinship, each insist that theirs is the only true religion and have ever been at loggerheads. Since the Semitic religions are a majority in the world, a clash of civilizations seems inevitable. The world needs a dose of the inclusive Hindu culture if it’s to save itself from religious self-destruction.

 

[Popeyesays]

Friends,
Popeye & others Sorry for writing gold in place of silver. [Though in the present day gold is more valuable]
Sojourner - You say the PATH is important not reaching home. Then we are not talking about the same thing. Your concept of home is not clear to me.
BUT if you state that there exists only one PATH/WAy to salvation; then you are closing youself to the myraid possibilities existence hjas to offer till date to get back to it.
Love & rgds

Gold was far more valuable then as well--so valuable that very little was coined at all.

I believe there id only one p[ath, but that Jesus is one way marker on that path, Muhammed is another way spot, Buddha yet another.

Not many paths because those many paths are actually the same path.

Regards,
Scott

 

[K.Venugopal]

I believe there is only one path, but that Jesus is one way marker on that path, Muhammed is another way spot, Buddha yet another. Not many paths because those many paths are actually the same path.

Scott, you are navigating right. You inspire me to say: One path, many milestones. One philosopher said, "Truth is a pathless land". However put, all of us are in the process of unfolding ourselves.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

However, it appears to me that the ransom of Christ was hijacked by the Church which said that mankind would be assured of everlasting life only if it believes in Jesus Christ. Has Christ’s sacrifice been in vain?

I seem to recall a Biblical passage that goes "...for whosoever believith in him...."

 

[UnityNow101]

The world needs a dose of the inclusive Hindu culture if it’s to save itself from religious self-destruction.

I would have to agree with you completely. The Bahai faith is another that is doing its best to bring the world together under the cause of justice and love among all. It was truly never meant to be this divided in my opinion. We, as mere mortals, have our ego running at all times. It is the " I am right, therefore you HAVE to be wrong" belief that is damaging relations among all. There is ONE God, who has chosen to reveal Himself to a myriad of peoples. He has revealed Himself using a myriad of Messengers and will continue to do so. It is easy to decipher truth from falsehood. Use your God-given instincts to begin to break down the walls that separate us all.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

If I hold out 100 dollars for you to take as a free gift, are you going to bother if you don't believe it's real? Keep in mind that if you don't take it, I'm going to shoot you with this .357 that I'm holding in my other hand. Also keep in mind that if I don't think you fully appreciate the money I've just offered, then I may shoot you anyway.

Fixed.

 

[rocketman]

Fixed.

I don't mind you adding your thoughts as an afterword but please refrain from editing quoteboxes with my name on them if it drastically changes the intent and/or is not obviously a joke. Thank you.

And you have mischaracterised things greatly. The gift is offered in the spirit of peace. Those who reject peace are already the violent type. Make no mistake, just as a soldier or police officer does in this life, in eternal life peace must be protected.

 

[zenzero]

Frined Unity NOW 101,
Your ideas can be also put thus : Unity in Diversity.
Thats India and also the many religiuons/paths/ways that differnt people practice to realise or should we say get back to nature.
If your understanding about Hinduism as a way of life then it is correct that each individual should consider the birth an opportunity to get back his godhood and take up any path/way/religion to get it. After all each being comes out of the same source and is only one but in different forms.
Any realised soul is not for a particular person or group of persons but for all mankind be it Buddha/Jesus/Mahavir/ etc.
It so happens that when these people left their bodies there direct desendents could carry it only a little further before the ORGANISATION took over and the human mind came back with full force with egos/power/money/etc becoming more important than the objective itself.
Love & rgds

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I don't mind you adding your thoughts as an afterword but please refrain from editing quoteboxes with my name on them if it drastically changes the intent and/or is not obviously a joke. Thank you.

It was a joke. Thats what "fixed" means. Brush up on your internet lingo.

And you have mischaracterised things greatly. The gift is offered in the spirit of peace. Those who reject peace are already the violent type. Make no mistake, just as a soldier or police officer does in this life, in eternal life peace must be protected.

The gift is not offered in the spirit of peace.

Here's a free gift! It costs absolutely nothing! However, should you choose to not accept this absolutely free gift, then we have an excellent place of weeping and gnashing of teeth for you to go instead!

Why would peace need to be protected in eternal life? What, is their going to be bloodshed? Who exactly does peace need to be protected from?

 

[rocketman]

It was a joke. Thats what "fixed" means. Brush up on your internet lingo.

I speak English myself. You could have thrown a smiley in there. It would be easy for people to get the wrong idea about what I was saying. And judging from this post I'm responding to I fail to see that you were joking at all.

The gift is not offered in the spirit of peace.

It sure is.

Here's a free gift! It costs absolutely nothing! However, should you choose to not accept this absolutely free gift, then we have an excellent place of weeping and gnashing of teeth for you to go instead!

Why would peace need to be protected in eternal life? What, is their going to be bloodshed? Who exactly does peace need to be protected from?

Is this another 'joke'? The answer you seek is embedded in your own question. The protection begins from day one, with the method proscribed. For the record I don't believe in an eternal suffering (see Matt 10:28) and I think that those who out of their pride don't want to live forever will willingly accept their fate. Weeping won't be confined to those who are departing. I hope that answer helps you Gab. Peace.

 

[sojourner]

Here we are talking of Jesus, son of God. Even Bush is not the "cut and run" type. Many ordinary folks have hung for their courage of convictions. Jesus came for our salvation. He was, apparently, sent by God for this express purpose. A sacrifice was in the offing all along. But finally we have to get the act together ourselves. We have to believe. It seemeth more to me that Jesus was teaching about the divinity in man - much more than a mere sinner.

I think you're wrong. There's nothing remotely religious about Jesus' sacrifice. Just because it was forecast doesn't mean it was "God's will." What's a foregone conclusion is that any time you mess with someone's security and power base, you're going to get into trouble. It wasn't particularly the Romans who called for Jesus' death -- it was the established religious leaders, whom he had knocked off their props.

Jesus was not, apparently, sent by God to be sacrificed. You said it yourself: "Jesus came for our salvation." Jesus became incarnate to reconcile us to God.