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Church, or Bible?

Church, or Bible?


  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I would choose Church because not only do we hear a few readings from the Bible at every Mass, we also receive the Eucharist which is the most important Sacrament.

I agree, in the Sacrament of the Eucharist we actually receive the body, blood and divinity of Jesus and become one with Him. However the Bible, through prayerful reading or contemplation such as Lectio Divina, is also a conduit for unity with God. The Bible is divine revelation in written form, nonetheless it is only part of divine revelation for Catholics, Orthodox, some Anglicans and others, because there is also the unwritten Word of God received from the Apostles in the manner of Sacred Tradition (not human traditions) and the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

The majesty of both the Sacrament of Communion and the Bible is recognised in Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican Christianity (and other forms of Christianity), as seen from these quotes from mystics (for instance):

"...Reading, meditation, prayer, [and] contemplation: lectio, meditatio, oratio, contemplatio. Reading is careful study of [Sacred] Scripture, with the soul’s [whole] attention: Meditation is the studious action of the mind to investigate hidden truth, led by one’s own reason. Prayer is the heart’s devoted attending to God, so that evil may be removed and good may be obtained. Contemplation is the mind suspended -somehow elevated above itself - in God so that it tastes the joys of everlasting sweetness. Reading accords with exercise of the outward [senses]; meditation accords with interior understanding; prayer accords with desire; contemplation is above all senses..."

- Guigo II (1140-1193), The Ladder of Monks

For monks and contemplatives, Holy Scripture is the 'Ladder' through which one can ascend to God in meditation and contemplative prayer. The technique described above is called Lectio Divina (Divine Reading) and it is the central spiritual method of Western Christianity in its traditional form, which demonstrates just how pivotal the Bible is. It is an ancient monastic contemplative practice (which the church encourages laity to utilize as well) leading to the fullness of the mystical life. Its steps, to recap are:

Lectio - the slow, spiritual reading of a scripture passage

Meditatio - meditating on the passage (ie reflecting on it)

Oratio - The movement of one's whole heart or being (affective prayer), opening up to God through the words

Contemplatio - One simply rests in God without any attempt at thought or rational analysis, neither using imagination or the memory. It is not an act of doing but rather that of being.


Sacred Scripture is thus the "gateway" or "ladder", the linchpin of this most ancient of prayer methods, the contemplative's surest friend and guide under the aid of the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, consider this second mystic's communion with God through the Sacrament of the Eucharist:

"...How can reason possibly grasp that immensity beyond all being where the precious food of the Eucharist is, in some marvellous way, made one with us, drawing us wholly to itself and changing us into itself? It is a union more intimate than any that the human mind can conceive, totally unlike any other change, a union more compatible than a tiny drop of water losing itself in the wine-vat and becoming one with the wine, or that of the rays of the sun made one with the sun's splendour; or the soul with the body, the two together making one person, one being. In this union the soul is lifted above the infirmity of its natural state, its own insufficiency, and there it is purified, transfigured and raised above its own powers, its human operations, its very self. Both being and activities are penetrated through and through by God, formed and transformed in a divine manner, the soul's new birth is accomplished in truth, and the spirit, losing all its native incompatibility, flows into divine union.

It is something like fire working on wood; the heat draws out all the moisture, the greenness and the heaviness. It grows warm, begins to glow, becomes more like the fire itself. As the wood slowly takes on the likeness of fire, the dissimilarity between the two grows less until finally, in a rapid movement, the fire takes from the wood its own substance; the wood becomes fire and loses at the same time its separateness and inequality, since it has become fire. No longer merely like fire, it has become one substance with the fire. Likeness is lost in union.

In the same way this food of love draws the soul above distinction or difference, beyond resemblance to divine unity. This is what happens to the transfigured spirit. When the divine heat of love has drawn out all the moisture, heaviness, unfitness, then this holy food plunges such a one into the life of God. As Our Lord himself said to St Augustine, "I am the food of the strong: believe and feast on me. You will not change me into yourself; rather you will be changed into me."..."

- Johannes Tauler (c.1300-1361), Catholic mystic & Dominican priest

The act of receiving Holy Communion has led the mystic to union with God, in effect, a union of "indistinction" with God, in which the mystic is so aware of the intimate bond created between the body, blood and personhood of Christ through transubstantiation and their own body and soul, such that they perceive no difference between themselves and Christ but have truly put on Christ and can say with Saint Paul: "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Galatians 2:20).

I think it is impossible to take the Bible and the Eucharist apart. We need both and both are inestimable gifts of God to humanity, in my humble understanding.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Bible. I don't require church for instruction as the Word is living. I view church as a venue of worship and sharing as a group.

I think it depends on what one understands by 'church'. In actual fact it would be an innocent error to equate the Church as the word is traditionally understood - which is the Living Body of Christ comprised of all who have been baptized into him and bear the name of Christian (as well as those outside formal Christianity who are baptised by implicit desire, that is through their purity of heart and soul) whether on earth or in heaven - with a building or worship service.

People often say 'I am going to Church' which is strange because the 'Church' is you and me and everyone else baptized into Jesus. We gather together in visible unity to read the scriptures and partake in the Eucharist, because he asked us to do this in memory of Him and because He told us that where two or three gather in His Name "I am among them" - yet the Church is not a building, it us wherever we are on earth or heaven.

Even if the OP means by 'church' the somewhat incorrect definition of a 'church building' or more properly a 'service', I suppose I would still choose 'mass' or 'divine liturgy' since one receives the Bible, fellowship with other believers and the Eucharist all in one - although I do also fully understand your perspective :)
 
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Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
If you had to choose, church attendance, but no Bible reading at home or otherwise, or Bible, but no church, which would you choose?

I haven't been to church for 12 years because I'm a loner..:)
If people want to go, that's fine, providing it's a good church and makes them feel good (but many churches are bad so stay away from that sort).
But strictly speaking we don't need any church or ministers or teachers at all because-
Jesus said:-"You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)
and he can be found in any slimline gospel like this one, costing just a few pence or free from most Christian groups..:)

gospel.gif~original
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
"The Eucharist" is not mentioned in the Bible as such, and "transubstantiation" is also not a Bible teaching, IMO. Such rituals may soothe some people, but impart nothing that draws one closer to God. (Matthew 15:9)

The word "Eucharist" is not in the Bible but the subject of it is, in my opinion.

When you come together, it is not really to eat the Lord's supper. For when the time comes to eat, each of you goes ahead with your own supper, and one goes hungry and another becomes drunk. What! Do you not have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you show contempt for the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What should I say to you? Should I commend you? In this matter I do not commend you! For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgement against themselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. So then, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If you are hungry, eat at home, so that when you come together, it will not be for your condemnation. About the other things I will give instructions when I come.
(1 Corinthians 11:20-34 NRSV-CE)

These are blemishes on your love-feasts, while they feast with you without fear, feeding themselves. They are waterless clouds carried along by the winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the deepest darkness has been reserved for ever.
(Jude 1:12-13 NRSV-CE)

They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
(Acts 2:42 NRSV-CE)

Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal.' Then they said to him, 'What must we do to perform the works of God?' Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.' So they said to him, 'What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, "He gave them bread from heaven to eat."' Then Jesus said to them, 'Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.' They said to him, 'Sir, give us this bread always.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.' Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, 'I am the bread that came down from heaven.' They were saying, 'Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, "I have come down from heaven"?' Jesus answered them, 'Do not complain among yourselves. No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.' The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, 'How can this man give us his flesh to eat?' So Jesus said to them, 'Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live for ever.' He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum.
(John 6:27-59 NRSV-CE)

There are more verses in the Bible that concern it but I won't post them all.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I'm going with Bible.

Btw, although the 'church' does actually mean the "body of Christ", this thread is referring to actual churches, building, weekly service type scenario, just to clear up any confusion.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I'd still go with the church building, divine services and community.

Walking into an Orthodox Church, being surrounded by the icons of the Saints, of Christ, of the Mother of God, seeing the stories of the Bible in iconographic form, listening to the hymns being chanted and sung, teaching profound theology and urging us to faithfulness, humility, repentance and love for God and for neighbor, and then coming together to fellowship, instruct and advise one another, as well as just being brothers and sisters, family in the Lord Jesus... Where two or three are gathered in His Name, there He is among them. My faith does not stand or fall on the words of a book, however important that book may be.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I would choose the living word of God first, but also believe in the importance of not forsaking the assembly of believers.
 

gzusfrk

Christian
I'd still go with the church building, divine services and community.

Walking into an Orthodox Church, being surrounded by the icons of the Saints, of Christ, of the Mother of God, seeing the stories of the Bible in iconographic form, listening to the hymns being chanted and sung, teaching profound theology and urging us to faithfulness, humility, repentance and love for God and for neighbor, and then coming together to fellowship, instruct and advise one another, as well as just being brothers and sisters, family in the Lord Jesus... Where two or three are gathered in His Name, there He is among them. My faith does not stand or fall on the words of a book, however important that book may be.

Funny, the Word say's faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I'd still go with the church building, divine services and community.

Walking into an Orthodox Church, being surrounded by the icons of the Saints, of Christ, of the Mother of God, seeing the stories of the Bible in iconographic form, listening to the hymns being chanted and sung, teaching profound theology and urging us to faithfulness, humility, repentance and love for God and for neighbor, and then coming together to fellowship, instruct and advise one another, as well as just being brothers and sisters, family in the Lord Jesus... Where two or three are gathered in His Name, there He is among them. My faith does not stand or fall on the words of a book, however important that book may be.

Yes its easy to be over awed by what we see and hear... we are physical beings afterall, so anything that affects our physical senses will likely inspire us in some way.

But those things dont actually do anything for faith and spirituality because the things of the flesh are opposition to the spirit. Faith is something that comes from deep within our heart when our spirituality is awakened...it doesnt come from things we can see and touch.

When you are moved and inspired by things you 'cant' see, thats when you can be sure your spirituality is awakened and alive and active.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Funny, the Word say's faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
And the Word of God is not synonymous with a book. The Apostles and first Christians didn't convert by reading books, but by walking with Christ. The Bible is not the Word. Jesus Christ is the Word.

Without the church services, the Bible as we know it would never have come together. The Bible and the divine services of the Church are two different ways to hear the Word of God speaking to us, along with prayer and fasting.

Yes its easy to be over awed by what we see and hear... we are physical beings afterall, so anything that affects our physical senses will likely inspire us in some way.

But those things dont actually do anything for faith and spirituality because the things of the flesh are opposition to the spirit. Faith is something that comes from deep within our heart when our spirituality is awakened...it doesnt come from things we can see and touch.

When you are moved and inspired by things you 'cant' see, thats when you can be sure your spirituality is awakened and alive and active.
It's not a matter of flesh vs. spirit, nor do I appreciate implicitly being called fleshly and non-spiritual because I value coming together as a community in Christ to pray and worship God in a way that is reverent, spiritually nourishing and edifying. Plus, you won't go astray by misinterpreting the Bible by yourself.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
It's not a matter of flesh vs. spirit, nor do I appreciate implicitly being called fleshly and non-spiritual because I value coming together as a community in Christ to pray and worship God in a way that is reverent, spiritually nourishing and edifying. Plus, you won't go astray by misinterpreting the Bible by yourself.

My comment is in regard to the physical things of the church that you said is more important then the bible... ie you said:

Walking into an Orthodox Church, being surrounded by the icons of the Saints, of Christ, of the Mother of God, seeing the stories of the Bible in iconographic form, listening to the hymns being chanted and sung,

There is a very good reason why Gods Word, in fact one of the 10 commandments, says we should not have such things in our worship.... they dont help our spirituality grow, they hinder it.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
After she moved to live in a new area a while back, my sister looked round for a good church and popped into one just down the road from her, and she said-
"They were all waving their arms in the air and jabbering like monkeys, I felt embarrassed and walked out"
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bible through which Jesus is known is more important than church. Church in fact causes division. "I belong to the Jehovah's Witnesses". "I belong to the Baptists". "I am a Catholic". They all can't be gathering to Jesus because Jesus is the way, The Truth and the life. The gathering of yourselves together which Hebrews 10:24 says not to forsake means to Jesus. I suspect that if you do not know it means to Jesus then you are forsaking it.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
My comment is in regard to the physical things of the church that you said is more important then the bible... ie you said:

There is a very good reason why Gods Word, in fact one of the 10 commandments, says we should not have such things in our worship.... they dont help our spirituality grow, they hinder it.
The Bible tells the story of salvation verbally. The icons tell the story of salvation visually. I never said that icons alone are more important than the Bible, but rather, if I go to church, I have the most important messages of the Bible all around me. The Bible and the Divine Services teach the same things, and each Christian's individual walk with God reflects various Biblical stories. If every single Bible disappeared from the world, it could be recreated simply by looking at the lives of Christians and the writings of the early Christians. This is not to discount the Bible by any means, but rather, it is to say that the Bible is not the only way to learn the Christian faith--it is a key part of a much larger way.

We've been down the road of how the Israelites had images in the Temple and how Jewish synagogues had iconography very similar to what would later develop in Christianity, and what "Thou shalt not worship graven images" means a hundred times. I am quite sure we each know the exact arguments the other side is going to use, so getting into that debate again is pointless, nor will I indulge it.
 
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ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I am going to repeat myself. Jesus and the Apostles did not have a Church building to go to. I have bible studies at people's homes. You don't need a building to worship God, all you need is people. That is why I chose "Bible".
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
..I have bible studies at people's homes. You don't need a building to worship God, all you need is people...

Yay..:)
"God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands" (Acts 17:24-28 )
God says "Heaven is my throne,earth is my footstool,how can you build a house for me?" (Isaiah 66:1)
"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord"(Jeremiah 23:24)
Jesus said we can go it alone if we prefer- "Go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father" (Matt 6:6)


Solitude didn't do the real-life Robinson Crusoe any harm during his 4 years on the island-
"Selkirk took ashore with him a musket, bullets, gun powder, a few carpenter tools, some extra clothing and bedding, tobacco, a hatchet and most importantly as it turned out later, a Bible"
https://www.ini.uzh.ch/~tobi/fun/alex/alex2.php


"Captain Rogers [of the rescue ship] was impressed not only by Selkirk's physical vigour, but also by the peace of mind he had attained while living on the island"
Alexander Selkirk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Phil25

Active Member
I am going to repeat myself. Jesus and the Apostles did not have a Church building to go to. I have bible studies at people's homes. You don't need a building to worship God, all you need is people. That is why I chose "Bible".

They hardly had any Bible too.
 
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