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Church to rethink bar on sex before marriage.
- Thread starter Truth_Faith13
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, we've both kind of gotten off topic, and in the process, I forgot to say something that actually was on topic. Most of the people who would be living together unmarried would probably not be all that interested in what "the Church" says anyway. Particularly if they had grown up in a Christian background, they would know what the Church's stance was on their decision to live together was anyway. For anyone who doesn't believe that God cares one way or the other, I don't see that what the Church has to say on the subject would matter much. My point was that it seems to me that the purpose of the Church is to help believers learn what God expects of them. People who go to church, routinely do so at least in part because they want to have some guidance in terms of understanding God's commandments. In my opinion, the Church has an obligation to give them that guidance, and is failing in one of its primary purposes by simply changing the rules supposedly made by God so that everybody can feel good about themselves. To me, it's a cop out on the part of the Church. If people don't want to go to Church, if they feel okay about their lifestyle as it is and don't see the Church as having any kind of authority to speak on moral issues, that's fine. That's their business and I support their right to live anyway they please. But I feel that those people who do choose to go to Church deserve to be told what God expects of them, and that the Church has an obligation to stick to what its holy texts state. Does that make sense?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You just got married, Apex! What are you saying? That it's not all it's cracked up to be and that just living together instead is the answer?
Nobody ever said marriage is "simple" or that it was ever intended to be. But with a valid contract, there is a little bit more incentive to make it work. And with a temple marriage, there should be a lot more incentive to make it work.
Apex
Somewhere Around Nothing
This past June.
No, that is not what I was talking about.
I was talking about actually getting married, the process itself. We thought it would be simple and everything would go smoothly. We never even took into consideration problems such as family issues. But that is all in the past now.
slave2six
Substitious
Seems to me that the only difference between the two has more to do with property rights. I mean, if people actually marry then divorce, it's a lot messier than if they are living together and break up - even if it is after 20 years.
OmarKhayyam
Well-Known Member
We got married these many many moons ago for mostly legal reasons. But I will say that if one of us had balked at the marriage bit the other would have raised an eyebrow and wondered just why; along the lines of what KP was saying.
As for it not being all that "easy" we sometimes say, when asked, "We never considered divorce; just murder."
As for CoE yeah, seems they have a logical problem. Either they know the eternal WoG or they don't. And if they DON'T they have no business being a Church.
As for it not being all that "easy" we sometimes say, when asked, "We never considered divorce; just murder."
As for CoE yeah, seems they have a logical problem. Either they know the eternal WoG or they don't. And if they DON'T they have no business being a Church.
Smoke
Done here.
In my view, that's what humans have always done, in every context.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Whew!
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yeah, and if children are part of that "property" it becomes even more difficult.
blackout
Violet.
People work things out a whole host of ways.
Sometimes the most "out of the box" solutions
are the one's that work best.
For the kids... for the adults... for all involved.
And yet people on the outside will never understand.
and it doesn't matter.
Families/family units are not "one size fits all".
Sometimes the most "out of the box" solutions
are the one's that work best.
For the kids... for the adults... for all involved.
And yet people on the outside will never understand.
and it doesn't matter.
Families/family units are not "one size fits all".
lunamoth
Will to love
I dont think this has been posted on the forums..I am sorry if it has, but its almost half four in the morning and I am a little tired for a major search!
The Church of England has declared that while sex is best kept for marriage, couples who live together and have children without marrying will no longer be regarded as living in sin.
Instead, they will be encouraged to adopt traditional values at special new services in which they will be able to get married and baptise their children.
In the services, couples will exchange vows and then present their babies for christening.
Full article here:-
Church told to rethink bar on sex before marriage - Times Online
Just thought I would post for your thoughts??
Just to be clear, I can find no evidence that "The Church of England has declared that while sex is best kept for marriage, couples who live together and have children without marrying will no longer be regarded as living in sin." I wonder where you are getting this DA. It is not in the article. Do you have another reference?
The article is about a report done by one Diocese that is being passed around within its own parishes. It does not even say who commissioned the report. Terry would have a better idea of exactly what this means, but it sounds a loooooooong way from coming from the Archbishop of Canterbury.
BTW, the Episcopal Church, and I am sure this extends to the CoE, does not put bars up for people who live together who want to get married. There is nothing, and has not been, anything to keep people who live together, have children together outside of marriage, from getting married.
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Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
That was from a Newspaper (frontpage actually)...the original article I read was in one of our daily newspapers - I couldnt find the exact one though on internet and cant remember the paper it was in now, so posted one similar...its good to have information from a variety of sources anyhow..
I know there is no bars up...but before it was always considered a sin to be cohabiting and have children and not be married.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
And what do you know...I have managed to find it...
It was from Daily Mail:- Now you can have your children baptised when you marry, says Church of England | Mail Online
It was from Daily Mail:- Now you can have your children baptised when you marry, says Church of England | Mail Online
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
There are very good social reasons for the Institution of Marriage.
There are rather fewer Religious ones, as I mentioned earlier, the Church did not involve itself in the process as a normal requirement till the early middle ages.
There were many reasons for this none of which can be traced to the Bible.
It was not till much later ( 20th. century) that Blacksmiths weddings were not recognised as legal.
How a marriage is performed is not important in the scale of things. Even today an Anglican wedding is made by a promise between two people, It is simply blessed by the Church (a priest does not marry you). The legal bit is in the signing of the register witnessed by an authorised person (an Anglican priest is authorised by the state to do this.)
The question of fornication is really a separate issue; As is living in sin.
There is no such thing as living in sin, shown in the Bible.
It was assumed that people living together had made a commitment to each other (marriage)
Fornication is sexual relations between people who have made no such commitment.
To day when a very high proportion of marriages end in divorce, can one say that the "commitment" was ever made? So is this Fornication?
People enter serial marriages with no final commitment.
This is why for so long the churches did not recognise divorce.
And why even today the Catholic church does not allow divorce, though if it can be shown that the “commitment” had not been made the said marriage can be annulled.
The Anglican "announcement ?" is simply recognising all this; it is not reinterpreting the meaning of fornication in the eyes of God. And as Lunamoth says I can see no change in the position as has always existed. We have always allowed un married people to marry Living together or not, Virgins or not, the only exception has been divorced people, who in the eyes of God are considered to be still married.
It is recognising the position of the early church that recognised social wedding conventions. At the same time maintaining its preferred position of offering the opportunity for people to make that commitment before a congregation and to make their vows before God and the have the marriage blessed.
There are rather fewer Religious ones, as I mentioned earlier, the Church did not involve itself in the process as a normal requirement till the early middle ages.
There were many reasons for this none of which can be traced to the Bible.
It was not till much later ( 20th. century) that Blacksmiths weddings were not recognised as legal.
How a marriage is performed is not important in the scale of things. Even today an Anglican wedding is made by a promise between two people, It is simply blessed by the Church (a priest does not marry you). The legal bit is in the signing of the register witnessed by an authorised person (an Anglican priest is authorised by the state to do this.)
The question of fornication is really a separate issue; As is living in sin.
There is no such thing as living in sin, shown in the Bible.
It was assumed that people living together had made a commitment to each other (marriage)
Fornication is sexual relations between people who have made no such commitment.
To day when a very high proportion of marriages end in divorce, can one say that the "commitment" was ever made? So is this Fornication?
People enter serial marriages with no final commitment.
This is why for so long the churches did not recognise divorce.
And why even today the Catholic church does not allow divorce, though if it can be shown that the “commitment” had not been made the said marriage can be annulled.
The Anglican "announcement ?" is simply recognising all this; it is not reinterpreting the meaning of fornication in the eyes of God. And as Lunamoth says I can see no change in the position as has always existed. We have always allowed un married people to marry Living together or not, Virgins or not, the only exception has been divorced people, who in the eyes of God are considered to be still married.
It is recognising the position of the early church that recognised social wedding conventions. At the same time maintaining its preferred position of offering the opportunity for people to make that commitment before a congregation and to make their vows before God and the have the marriage blessed.
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Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Wow - rethinking a meaningless rule that nobody ever followed anyway. How significant.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
It makes your wonder doesnt it?
Just shows how stupid the CofE church is sometimes!
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
I found this on the official Anglican web site which gives todays official view of Sacraments.
Central to worship for Anglicans is the celebration of the Holy Eucharist, also called the Holy Communion, the Lord's Supper or the Mass. In this offering of prayer and praise, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are recalled through the proclamation of the word and the celebration of the sacrament. Other important rites, commonly called sacraments, include confirmation, holy orders, reconciliation, marriage and anointing of the sick.
There are only two Sacraments in the Anglican Church, Baptism and The Eucharist.
The other five, that are recognised by the Roman church, are officially rites in the Anglican Church.
The reason for this view, is that Christ Instructed us to be Baptised, he also instructed us to take part in the Last supper in memory of him. He did not instruct us to do the other rites.
The other five sacraments were inferred by the early church , from Bible writings, but not established until the 12th century with the authority of succession Most Protestant churches do not accept this.
Central to worship for Anglicans is the celebration of the Holy Eucharist, also called the Holy Communion, the Lord's Supper or the Mass. In this offering of prayer and praise, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are recalled through the proclamation of the word and the celebration of the sacrament. Other important rites, commonly called sacraments, include confirmation, holy orders, reconciliation, marriage and anointing of the sick.
There are only two Sacraments in the Anglican Church, Baptism and The Eucharist.
The other five, that are recognised by the Roman church, are officially rites in the Anglican Church.
The reason for this view, is that Christ Instructed us to be Baptised, he also instructed us to take part in the Last supper in memory of him. He did not instruct us to do the other rites.
The other five sacraments were inferred by the early church , from Bible writings, but not established until the 12th century with the authority of succession Most Protestant churches do not accept this.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
The Roman Church cite St. Paul on matters of Marriage
"The classical Scriptural text is the declaration of the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 5:22 sqq.), who emphatically declares that the relation between husband and wife should be as the relation between Christ and His Church: "Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the Church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life; that He might present it to Himself a glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth it and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the Church: because we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." After this exhortation the Apostle alludes to the Divine institution of marriage in the prophetical words proclaimed by God through Adam: "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh." He then concludes with the significant words in which he characterizes Christian marriage: "This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the Church." "
"The classical Scriptural text is the declaration of the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 5:22 sqq.), who emphatically declares that the relation between husband and wife should be as the relation between Christ and His Church: "Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the Church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life; that He might present it to Himself a glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth it and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the Church: because we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." After this exhortation the Apostle alludes to the Divine institution of marriage in the prophetical words proclaimed by God through Adam: "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh." He then concludes with the significant words in which he characterizes Christian marriage: "This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the Church." "
lunamoth
Will to love
Thank you for finding the other article DA. And in a way, you are right, this is stupid. As far as the AC is concerned it is non-news.
The focus of our church tends to be on reconciliation and worship, rather than on pronouncement of sin. It appears that some news agency decided to try to make an issue of something, perhaps so people could get riled up about the CofE, maybe to try to get them to stir the pot over the whole sexuality and marriage issue as it relates to homosexuals, or both.
I'm sure that now you've found your home in the CofJCoftheLDS, you can well relate to how people look for things in your church that look silly (or worse) from the outside and then try to get people riled up about them. But, you know that from your perspective inside your religion the things you do and believe reflect the love and grace of God.
Of course I feel that way about things in my church.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
Thank you for finding the other article DA. And in a way, you are right, this is stupid. As far as the AC is concerned it is non-news.
It appears that some news agency decided to try to make an issue of something, perhaps so people could get riled up about the CofE, maybe to try to get them to stir the pot over the whole sexuality and marriage issue as it relates to homosexuals, or both.
I'm sure that now you've found your home in the CofJCoftheLDS, you can well relate to how people look for things in your church that look silly (or worse) from the outside and then try to get people riled up about them. But, you know that from your perspective inside your religion the things you do and believe reflect the love and grace of God.
Of course I feel that way about things in my church.
I just realised my post may have sounded a bit harsh - sorry I didnt mean it to!
I know many people do live together, have children and then get married but I have never been to a ceremony so wasnt sure if this whole confession of sins or whatever the paper was getting at was true or not. All I know is my parents both being divorced couldnt get married in a CofE church when they married 14years ago...they got married in a methodist church. They were also living together at the time.
I am a little confused how you would think this article is about homosexuals? Homosexual marriage isnt a problem in UK..its allowed.