Circumcision without consent. Is it wrong?

[Koldo]

Because the rape case is heinous and involves an adult taking advantage of a minor.

What if the adult, back then a child, tells you he wasn't being taken advantage of? That he truly wanted to have sex and sees nothing heinous about what transpired. Who would you be to claim otherwise?

This is why retroactive consent is not a thing. Either you are able to consent or you are not.

For circumcison, it's parents doing what they think their child will want them to do.

No. It is parents doing whatever they want irrespective of what their children would want.

 

[ppp]

Completely, 100%, false.

100% true

 

[dybmh]

100% true

Are you a mind reader? You know what my intentions are better than I do?

 

[Koldo]

I can say from experience that this is not why my wife and I chose to have my son circumcised. We did it to make it easier for him; we thought we were doing him a favor having it done when he was an infant. It had nothing to do with indoctrination.

You did it because you are following a barbaric tradition that only seems normal to you because you have been subjected to the very same thing from a very early age.

 

[ppp]

I did not take advantage of my power over my child. That's 100% false.

Taking advantage of your power over your child is actually a neutral statement. You are tadoing so when you tell them that the stove is hot (because you don't want them to get burned), or that the cabinets are off limits (because you don't want to have to clean up the mess). The problem is not simply taking advantage of your power, but screwing around with their bodily autonomy for your actual benefit, and only their vaguely theoretical benefit. My parents did it to me, and while I don't harbor any ill will towards them for it, I know that they, like so many others, did so because of the social inertia of tradition. We have gotta stop and look at our traditions, and whether they are actually of benefit, harmful or neutral. Tradition is the worst positive reason for doing anything.

 

[dybmh]

You did it because you are following a barbaric tradition that only seems normal to you because you have been subjected to the very same thing from a very early age.

No, that's not why we did it.

 

[ppp]

Are you a mind reader? You know what my intentions are better than I do?

Nope. And I should not have made that replay. It was a kneejerk response to return glibness for glibness. I apologize.

 

[Koldo]

No, that's not why we did it.

Yeah, right....

 

[dybmh]

Taking advantage of your power over your child is actually a neutral statement. You are tadoing so when you tell them that the stove is hot (because you don't want them to get burned), or that the cabinets are off limits (because you don't want to have to clean up the mess). The problem is not simply taking advantage of your power, but screwing around with their bodily autonomy for your actual benefit, and only their vaguely theoretical benefit. My parents did it to me, and while I don't harbor any ill will towards them for it, I know that they, like so many others, did so because of the social inertia of tradition. We have gotta stop and look at our traditions, and whether they are actually of benefit, harmful or neutral. Tradition is the worst positive reason for doing anything.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. As I have said repeatedly, we were thinking of what would be easier for our son. We have no problem with dumping tradition when and if it needs to be replaced. We don't indoctrinate. As I said, you can't read my mind; you don't know what we were thinking and discussing when we decided to circumcise our son.

 

[ppp]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. As I have said repeatedly, we were thinking of what would be easier for our son. We have no problem with dumping tradition when and if it needs to be replaced. We don't indoctrinate. As I said, you can't read my mind; you don't know what we were thinking and discussing when we decided to circumcise our son.

In what way were you making it easier for your son?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is a big difference between getting circumcised as an infant vs. an adult.

Yes: consent.

In a religious family where the adult will likely want to be circumcised the parent is doing them a favor by getting it done as an infant.

NIH.gov - A 'snip' in time: what is the best age to circumcise?

While they're at it, why not also give the baby a Prince Albert?

After all, once the kid grows up, they may appreciate that it was already done for them... right?

 

[dybmh]

In what way were you making it easier for your son?

So that if he chooses to be religious, the circumcision is already done.

 

[dybmh]

Yes: consent.


While they're at it, why not also give the baby a Prince Albert?

After all, once the kid grows up, they may appreciate that it was already done for them... right?

You clearly did not read the linked article. There are many medical benefits with circumcision as an infant.

 

[ppp]

So that if he chooses to be religious, the circumcision is already done.

That only makes it easier for him if he chooses that single option. And you have denied him the choice. This is not a condemnation. I deeply, deeply regret the handful of spankings I administered before I pulled back and examined why I was making that decision. I stopped. But I did it, and I have to live with that. But there was no actual need. Just tradition and legacy. Same goes for circumcision. Honor Killings. Female circumcisions. Shunning. Cultural isolation. Etcetera.

 

[dybmh]

That only makes it easier for him if he chooses that single option. And you have denied him the choice. This is not a condemnation. I deeply, deeply regret the handful of spankings I administered before I pulled back and examined why I was making that decision. I stopped. But I did it, and I have to live with that. But there was no actual need. Just tradition and legacy. Same goes for circumcision. Honor Killings. Female circumcisions. Shunning. Cultural isolation. Etcetera.

How have I denied him the choice? Like I said, I thought I was giving him more choices. He can choose to be irreligious or some other religion as a circumcised man.

 

[ppp]

How have I denied him the choice? Like I said, I thought I was giving him more choices. He can choose to be irreligious or some other religion as a circumcised man.

You have denied him the choice over whether or not to have mutilated genitals. He is stuck with your choice.

 

[KWED]

I don't know enough about FGM to say for sure; but, IF it's done as an infant and it has the same outcome as circumcision, then yes I think it's acceptable.

Well, at least you have the honesty to be consistent, but not sure how supporting FGM will go down at your next dinner party.

 

[KWED]

Sexual activity with a minor is not the same as a medical procedure on an infant.

Kinda is, in some respect. Both sex with a minor and FGM are both criminal offences involving the genitals, committed against children often by people in a position of trust and responsibility. Yet you find one acceptable but not the other.
Why the inconsistency?

 

[KWED]

Because the rape case is heinous and involves an adult taking advantage of a minor. For circumcison, it's parents doing what they think their child will want them to do.

So if someone thinks a child will want to have sex with them when they are older and able to consent, it's ok to do it when they are little?
Righto!

 

[KWED]

Did you take a look at the article I cited? It lists many medical benefits of circumcision.

And yet the NHS refuses to carry out non-medical circumcisions because there is no evidence for any appreciable health benefits in general terms.

The so called "health benefits" pro-circumcisionists claim are usually better achieved through other, less damaging means. And the conditions that it is a legitimate treatment for are very rare. It would be like routinely removing breast buds in infant girls to prevent breast cancer in later life. In fact, given the prevalence and severity of the condition, it would seem more reasonable than circumcision to prevent possible phimosis.