circumstantial evidence to Gods existence

[BilliardsBall]

This is the view of another Christian group.
The modern State of Israel to this day bases its claim to statehood on a UN resolution and what it calls the natural and historic right of the Jewish people. Is it reasonable to expect that the God of the Bible would perform the greatest prophetic miracle in the 20th century in behalf of a people who refuse to give him credit?

How Does the Modern Claim to Statehood Compare?

Modern Israel’s secular attitude contrasts sharply with the situation in 537 B.C.E. Back then, the nation of Israel was indeed ‘reborn’ as if in a day after being devastated and depopulated by the Babylonians 70 years earlier. At that time, Isaiah 66:8 was strikingly fulfilled when the Persian conqueror of Babylon, Cyrus the Great, authorized the return of the Jews to their homeland.—Ezra 1:2.
Does Bible Prophecy Point to the Modern State of Israel? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Suffice to say biblical interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.



Again, this is according to your interpretation of the Bible. What I'm saying is that without the growth of Christianity, there'd likely be a lot less Jewish persecution going on.



A really good book on how things like this happen is "Outliers: The Story of Success" by Malcolm Gladwell. Specifically pay attention to the explanation of why there are so many good Jewish Attorneys.

Huh?

Just because Isaiah 66:8 was fulfilled long ago and OTHER prophecies more recently (May 1948 AD) doesn't invalidate EITHER prophecy. Multiple fulfilled prophecies strengthens the fulfillment.

And the rise of Christianity doesn't explain why Jews were scattered to many nations per prophecy and hated everywhere including Muslim nations, Asia, the Americas...

 

[BilliardsBall]

It only makes sense! (And not in a good way )
I'll explain:

Going back 10K years from today...
Would you say people knew what the sun is? Of course not!
It was the brightest thing they have ever seen anywhere in their entire world.
It was moving, seeming to just float out there above everyone.
Nothing can overcome it.
They understood that without sub, there are no life! Its not hard to observe.
They noticed that when the sun is gone, it is much colder.

What else could they think other than some unknown all powerful force it is?
All religions started as a worship to the un -explained natural forces.
As time goes by, People become wiser, and learn better.
This, could only lead to one place... Once they realized the sun is not a god, the only other explanation the best of mind in that time could come up with, was that there is a bigger force that created the sun.
And so, as years are passing, and more and more people understand that the gods are not really actively changing their fates, religion becomes more and more vague and dogmatic.

Theism is the "trails" of those times.
Breadcrumbs if you wish of times where science was very immature.

I am willing to bet my eternity () that if you'll check back in a thousand years, the number of theist will be greatly reduced.
And no.. It is not because God said that as time passes we will become more and more distant from God.. (Hmmm, maybe those who invented the religion knew that eventually people will understand its a fiction?)

Thus, You and many great and amazing people, are still "stuck" in those times.

So yes.. once upon a time, the vast majority of people were Theists. not because they knew better... because they didn't!

"Our grandparents were stupider than us and so believed in God" is neither honoring our ancestors nor ourselves. You seem very intelligent, I bet your god-fearing ancestors were also.

Plus the Bible shows prescience (prophecy) and accuracy (the Earth is suspended, hanging upon nothing, written at least 1,000 BC). Wow!

 

[columbus]

Yes, my belief about trusting Jesus for salvation is different.

And less logical than most. The premise that The Way to God's favor is choosing the correct human Prophet, instead of good behavior, severely limits Salvation.
I can understand why humans with an exclusive worldview would prefer that be true. But it isn't logical, much less reasoned or evidenced.
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, objectively it's easy to see the difference in the messages from folks claiming to speak for God. O course from your view, you've already decided the truth of these other religions. For example sin and karma and not the same thing.



Instead of viewing reality objectively, you've already decided the truth about reality. There's no need of a God in the explanation of how rocks are formed.
How Are Rocks Formed? - Universe Today

The point here for me was that the analogy of the watchmaker was a bad one. It's an attempt to put God and the universe into the same small box with the creation of a watch.

You're certain of the truth, I'm uncertain of the truth. You may see uncertainty as a weakness and I can understand that. Folks admire certainty and confidence. It's not easy for people to admit that they don't know the truth about something.

Being an atheist, I lack any bias about God. I've no need to prove the truth of any particular religion or concept of God. I accept evidence that can be scientifically validated, not because it disproves God but because I find it to be the only reliable method of validating what we claim to be true. However one thing you can't do is try to validate what is true already certain of your knowledge of what is true. You have to be willing to embrace uncertainty. If you can't do that then you will always only be able to find the answers you seek, not discover what is true.

Nakosis, I'm a Bachelor's in Religion from a secular university. I've read (much or some of) the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Qu'ran, the Bible. You?

Karma is paying for past sins. Sinners pay for present (life) sin.

Thanks for sharing a bunch of philosophical musings with me. Next, perhaps you will pick any field of science like cosmology, math, physics, anthropology, whatever--and show me where there is not inherent design, patterns, 80/20 rules, bell curves, normal curves, simple tools we can use to apprehend bigger concepts, etc.

The entire universe shows evidence of design, everywhere, microscopic to galactic in size. Everywhere.

Being an atheist, I lack any bias about God.

Please compare with these quotes:

Being a Democrat, I lack any bias about politics.

Being a Republican, I lack any bias about politics.

Being an Independent, I lack any bias about politics.

Being apolitical and never having voted, I lack any bias about politics.

I need look no further than you reading my mind and telling me what I think:

"You have to be willing to embrace uncertainty."

"You're certain of the truth,"

"You may see uncertainty as a weakness and I can understand that."

...to know that you have a bias about us God-lovers. But I have biases also. Not that you showed me your bias and I showed you mine, can we deal with the universe? It ALL shows DESIGN.

 

[Thumper]

If I say I have no sin, I am a liar, but I do sin.

Thumper, 90%-plus of people who have ever lived = most.

Most people believe in (or while alive) believed in a God(s). You can show me the latest revisionist survey proving how many atheists exist in the West or worldwide, and you'll never get above 49%. MOST people believe in God.

"Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors." - Sir Issac Newton

While it may be arguable whether most people who ever lived believed in some sort of gods, it would not by any stretch of the imagination be your particular one.

Egyptian mythology itself lasted about 4,000 years (c. 4000 BCE to 30 CE).

 

[Nakosis]

Nakosis, I'm a Bachelor's in Religion from a secular university. I've read (much or some of) the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Qu'ran, the Bible. You?

Karma is paying for past sins. Sinners pay for present (life) sin.

That's what they taught you, wow amazing. Well at least your certainty is secure.

Thanks for sharing a bunch of philosophical musings with me.

No problem.

Next, perhaps you will pick any field of science like cosmology, math, physics, anthropology, whatever--and show me where there is not inherent design, patterns, 80/20 rules, bell curves, normal curves, simple tools we can use to apprehend bigger concepts, etc.
The entire universe shows evidence of design, everywhere, microscopic to galactic in size. Everywhere.

The real question is whether such design requires intelligence. A human intellect while being required for a watch, is not required for a rock. Rocks would still be rocks even if humans never showed up on the scene.

Please compare with these quotes:

Being a Democrat, I lack any bias about politics.

Being a Republican, I lack any bias about politics.

Being an Independent, I lack any bias about politics.

Being apolitical and never having voted, I lack any bias about politics.

I need look no further than you reading my mind and telling me what I think:

"You have to be willing to embrace uncertainty."

"You're certain of the truth,"

"You may see uncertainty as a weakness and I can understand that."

...to know that you have a bias about us God-lovers. But I have biases also. Not that you showed me your bias and I showed you mine, can we deal with the universe? It ALL shows DESIGN.

What I have a bias against is certainty.
Design in nature is called constructal law. It occurs through natural processes which doesn't require the intervention of a conscious intelligence.

 

[Nakosis]

Huh?

Just because Isaiah 66:8 was fulfilled long ago and OTHER prophecies more recently (May 1948 AD) doesn't invalidate EITHER prophecy. Multiple fulfilled prophecies strengthens the fulfillment.

Didn't say they were invalid, just such interpretation depends on who you listen to. You are free to interpret these predictions as you wish. Whether anyone buys into a particular interpretation interpretation is up to them. Your interpretation is as good or as bad as any other.

And the rise of Christianity doesn't explain why Jews were scattered to many nations per prophecy and hated everywhere including Muslim nations, Asia, the Americas...

Of course not, not to you. You've already decided.

 

[Segev Moran]

"Our grandparents were stupider than us and so believed in God" is neither honoring our ancestors nor ourselves. You seem very intelligent, I bet your god-fearing ancestors were also.

I Can't see how you came to the conclusion that I claimed they were stupider?
We today, with all the knowledge we have, are struggling to explain how they could do amazing things.
This has got nothing to do with "wisdom". It has got anything to do with scientific education.

Plus the Bible shows prescience (prophecy) and accuracy (the Earth is suspended, hanging upon nothing, written at least 1,000 BC). Wow!

It is far from being suspended.
And it is surly not hanging upon nothing
And there is no "center" on its crust.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And less logical than most. The premise that The Way to God's favor is choosing the correct human Prophet, instead of good behavior, severely limits Salvation.
I can understand why humans with an exclusive worldview would prefer that be true. But it isn't logical, much less reasoned or evidenced.
Tom

Saying "one way is not logical" is rather an emotional argument. Exclusivity in most earthly things enhances their value, why not heavenly things?

One reason Christianity seems eminently logical to me--it solves the otherwise unsolvable problem of human sin and utopia. Transformation, not only forgiveness, is needed for me to go to Heaven without ruining Heaven for others with my otherwise sinful behavior.

 

[BilliardsBall]

While it may be arguable whether most people who ever lived believed in some sort of gods, it would not by any stretch of the imagination be your particular one.

Egyptian mythology itself lasted about 4,000 years (c. 4000 BCE to 30 CE).

Please list all the modern and ancient atheists cultures here:

1.

2.

3.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's what they taught you, wow amazing. Well at least your certainty is secure.



No problem.



The real question is whether such design requires intelligence. A human intellect while being required for a watch, is not required for a rock. Rocks would still be rocks even if humans never showed up on the scene.



What I have a bias against is certainty.
Design in nature is called constructal law. It occurs through natural processes which doesn't require the intervention of a conscious intelligence.

How does constructal law explain there being a nowhere/void/nothing and then a large something (universe) expanding, based on Conservation of Matter/Energy?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Didn't say they were invalid, just such interpretation depends on who you listen to. You are free to interpret these predictions as you wish. Whether anyone buys into a particular interpretation interpretation is up to them. Your interpretation is as good or as bad as any other.



Of course not, not to you. You've already decided.

I'm Jewish. I've known all my life that people who say "we deserve persecution" or "we brought it on our own heads" are anti-Semites more so than logicians.

The Bible prophecies are astonishing in their specificity and fulfillment, so that we are without excuse if we actually study them.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I Can't see how you came to the conclusion that I claimed they were stupider?
We today, with all the knowledge we have, are struggling to explain how they could do amazing things.
This has got nothing to do with "wisdom". It has got anything to do with scientific education.

It is far from being suspended.
And it is surly not hanging upon nothing
And there is no "center" on its crust.

From the lay reader's point of view, without Hebrew words for vacuum, vacuum energy, dark energy and gravity . . . I think the description is prescient and apt.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm Jewish. I've known all my life that people who say "we deserve persecution" or "we brought it on our own heads" are anti-Semites more so than logicians.

I didn't say either. Just that Christian belief might be the fault of some of it.

The Bible prophecies are astonishing in their specificity and fulfillment, so that we are without excuse if we actually study them.

Even a broken clock will be right twice a day. I suppose that could be astonishing to some folks too.
However, you like everyone else have to do what seems best for you.

For me, religious belief is no excuse for anything ever.

 

[Nakosis]

How does constructal law explain there being a nowhere/void/nothing and then a large something (universe) expanding, based on Conservation of Matter/Energy?

It doesn't. It only explains how design is a natural process. You're moving the goal posts.

Personally, this is just my belief. Something doesn't come nothing. What that something is, I don't know. You're ok with saying it's God and leaving it at that? I'm not.

If someone can prove this God, or that a God did it, I'm all for it. If someone is expecting me to except this as truth because they can't come up with a better explanation then no. Ignorance is not proof of anything.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I didn't say either. Just that Christian belief might be the fault of some of it.



Even a broken clock will be right twice a day. I suppose that could be astonishing to some folks too.
However, you like everyone else have to do what seems best for you.

For me, religious belief is no excuse for anything ever.

Yes, a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Yes, scriptures proved to be written centuries before Christ said the Christ would be betrayed for 30 silver pieces by a close associate who would kiss him on the cheek, that He would be stripped, humiliated, beaten, deserted by friends, pierced through his hands and feet, rise from the dead to astonish his followers, etc.

You see, I've read hundreds and hundreds of Bible prophecies and their fulfillment. A Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, including dozens regarding modern Israel that YOU can verify without going back millennia, supposition, etc. A clock has "two", yes.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It doesn't. It only explains how design is a natural process. You're moving the goal posts.

Personally, this is just my belief. Something doesn't come nothing. What that something is, I don't know. You're ok with saying it's God and leaving it at that? I'm not.

If someone can prove this God, or that a God did it, I'm all for it. If someone is expecting me to except this as truth because they can't come up with a better explanation then no. Ignorance is not proof of anything.

Okay, let's not rush to a God conclusion or move the goalposts.

Based on laws of nature, should mechanistic processes balance (like gravity over a distance not causing all matter to adhere, total sum mass/energy balanced, design at all telescoping and microscopic levels, etc.)?

You just said design is a natural process. Why design when we consider laws of entropy and etc. that seem to tend toward chaos, not design? If nature is the designer who makes the designs, isn't that creatio ex niholo again, you know, nothing making something? How do you account for that?

 

[Segev Moran]

From the lay reader's point of view, without Hebrew words for vacuum, vacuum energy, dark energy and gravity . . . I think the description is prescient and apt.

Exactly. They had no words for it, because they were missing this knowledge.
Same as the bible describes only things that humans at that time could see or "figure out"

It is also suggested by the creation story that the earth existed before the sun...
Interesting

 

[Nakosis]

Okay, let's not rush to a God conclusion or move the goalposts.

Based on laws of nature, should mechanistic processes balance (like gravity over a distance not causing all matter to adhere, total sum mass/energy balanced, design at all telescoping and microscopic levels, etc.)?

We really still don't know what gravity is. Science discovered a phenomenon which is pretty consistent. The why of gravity is still theoretical as far as I know. Hard to debate the why of something when it's why is not known for sure.

You just said design is a natural process. Why design when we consider laws of entropy and etc. that seem to tend toward chaos, not design? If nature is the designer who makes the designs, isn't that creatio ex niholo again, you know, nothing making something? How do you account for that?

Excellent question. The design you find in the universe is the result of a low entropy system moving to a high entropy system. It's not chaos we are moving towards but order. A uniformity. In the beginning is chaos. Assuming there is no initial correlation between particles, random speeds, directions. Over the course of time particles begin to interact with each other. As more particles interact over time the correlation between particles increases.

The correlation is the result of the four fundamental forces on the universe, gravity, which you mentioned before, electromagnetic, strong and weak. Over time these forces increase the correlation between particles which eventually become recognizable patterns. The design you see is explained by entropy and these four fundamental forces.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Yes, scriptures proved to be written centuries before Christ said the Christ would be betrayed for 30 silver pieces by a close associate who would kiss him on the cheek, that He would be stripped, humiliated, beaten, deserted by friends, pierced through his hands and feet, rise from the dead to astonish his followers, etc.

You see, I've read hundreds and hundreds of Bible prophecies and their fulfillment. A Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, including dozens regarding modern Israel that YOU can verify without going back millennia, supposition, etc. A clock has "two", yes.

I'm not a biblical scholar. However I've spoken with Jews, who seem to know much more then I about the Tanakh. They I that say the parts of the OT need to be taken out of context in order to be used to explain the prophecy of Christ. From what I've read, and this was a while ago, I was pretty much convinced that the Messiah prophesied in the OT was not the Christ of the NT. From what I've seen Mathew made a great effort to make this correlation between the two, no doubt and I guess if you accept the truth of the gospels without question then I suppose there in no reason for you to doubt that correlation.

I don't know the authors of Mathew, Luke, John or Mark. That alone means I have no particular reason to accept/believe anything they say. Without evidence to support what they said, their words are just words. I haven't found any evidence/reason to take them at their word.

You have, that's fine for you. I just don't find any use in arguing about their claims when I lack any certainty about them in the first place.