circumstantial evidence to Gods existence

[meghanwaterlillies]

I have made the following argument in another as to why materialism is unlikely to be the final word and why the Hindu idea of Brahman may be promising,
As we uncover the workings of the natural world certain things become clear:-

1) Physical entities (matter-energy-space-time) interact with each other in highly predictable ways which we call "laws of nature", "causality" etc. However the reason for the existence of this structured patterns of behavior and their invariable attachment with physical entities is unknown.

2) The laws of nature themselves are mathematical. Mathematics is a domain of abstract and extraordinarily rich non-empirical reality that is "somehow" glued into "stuff" through these laws and accessible to knowledge through rationality. Why should there be such a realm of abstract rational world of mathematics and why they intermingle with stuff via the laws of physics is also not known.

3) Stuff..connected with the mathematical world via the laws of nature, is also extraordinarily and unexpectedly fecund, coalescing in property rich groups with utterly novel qualities and functions starting from molecules, crystals, living things, stars, galaxies and sentient beings. The repeated (and apparently limitless) potential of emerging wholes with novel properties all stacked on top of each other (from molecules to man i.e.) from "stuff" is observable and describable; but why stuff has such emergence potential is unknown.

Certain strands of Hinduism propose that there is something more fundamental than matter-energy, laws of nature, mathematics and consciousness/information. On this more fundamental entity all these domains rest, and of which these various domains are aspects of. And this singular fundamental entity, which is called Brahman, provides the connecting glue and the structural richness around which stuff/mathematics/laws etc. is coalescing to make it manifest in the sensory plane. This provides a "why" explanation rather than a what and how explanation. Such an explanation is needed as the interconnectivity of stuff, laws, maths, information, consciousness and repeated emergence are not mere facts, but extraordinary features that cannot be left unexplained.

And just like biology has provided us with senses to see physical entities and rationality to see mathematics..it has also provided us with inner capabilities, which when honed through meditation or other proper spiritual practices, can help us grasp this fundamental entity undergirding all these domains of knowledge...at least to some extent.

That is the argument that I would ask atheists and materialists to consider.

Further points:-
Is mathematics really a separate realm, or is it also based on empirical experiences?
Why materialism is probably false: A Hindu argument
Characteristics of Brahman as described in early Upanisads
Why materialism is probably false: A Hindu argument
Certain predictions that could be confirmed and disconfirmed by science
Why materialism is probably false: A Hindu argument
How these predictions logically arise from the nature of the proposed entity, Brahman
Why materialism is probably false: A Hindu argument

Do you matter are you real? Do want space? Do you have a physical body? Does it matter to you? That in which you can worship? Whatever it is you worship?

 

[rrosskopf]

Suggesting that a God created everything is not based on anything I've ever observed.

That isn't quite true; I'll bet you have seen your mother bake a pie, or your father build a fence or some such contrivance. Organization is a sign of intelligence at work. Now if you are talking creation out of nothing, then I am with you 100%.

 

[rrosskopf]

The incident of miracles is inversely proportional to the availability of camer phones.

It's not like camera phones were all the rage in 1830.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

yes, 4 royal flushes in a row is about 1 in (the number of stars in the universe), we can nail that figure down,

We do not have the necessary information to calculate the probability of the gambler cheating, we only know, that unless we can utterly rule it out, intelligent agency is less improbable than the staggering odds against chance.

we just can't be this sure that no intelligent creator could possibly have been involved, to assume chance is more likely

Betting is a front that caused the genocide. That's the good luck symbol.
Which is morally wrong.
Call kofi he'll be the one shot.

 

[rrosskopf]

The problem with the study is the failure to pull out the block effects such as tobacco, alcohol, coffee, and tea.

I agree with you; I rather think it is more a lesson on clean living, than effective prayer, but then again I was diagnosed with a terminal disease - 19 years ago.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Take away my freedoms small one's too and you'll be the one shot, whether or not I believe God I guess that doesn't matter really to ya. Or IF THERES PROOF... wow.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

You know what country smoked most and popped out the most babies before and after while PAN Europe North/Russia globalists went on a ****ing bet... America, AND WERE DOING IT LONG BEFORE THEN TOO. STAY ON YOUR SIDE I"LL LIGHT IT UP!

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

You ****ers have evolved all forms of religion into eugenics and genocide. PROOF THAT GOD IS PROUD YOU! please.....

 

[Twilight Hue]

clearly the majority of people don't agree with that statement and is self evident by the fact that they support a system of law that does rely on circumstantial evidence. obviously you are entitled to your own opinion about what evidence you will and will not accept but that in no way makes it valid by any appeal to authority

Well as the saying goes, karma is a *****.

 

[Sapiens]

I agree with you; I rather think it is more a lesson on clean living, than effective prayer, but then again I was diagnosed with a terminal disease - 19 years ago.

No, it is a lesson in "clean living" only ... and that's common sense. The block effect due to prayer is what is open to question and I suspect that it is down in the noise.

I was diagnosed with a terminal disease at 16, that's what I was always told. When I actually looked it up a few years later it became clear that 98% of the people who contracted it died and that the 2% who survived never heard from it again. You'd try to call that a miracle, I understand it for what it was, being lucky enough to be in the 2%.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Anyone who has trouble understanding that "supernatural" is fully contained with "extraordinary" needs remedial language training.

what wrong with your language. 1010101010101010101010101010101010101010

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

I would argue that your own experience is invalid due to confirmation bias. To the best of my knowledge no study has ever, in the final analysis, ever shown prayer to be useful. Every study that had showed even a week response was shown to be poorly designed, improperly conducted or incompetently analyzed. Not controlling for confirmation bias, the fact that humans are more inclined to recognize confirmations of their faith than they are to recognize disconfirmations is often at the root of the problem, as is the fact that existing empirical studies often limit themselves to prayers for relatively unmiraculous events, such as recovery from heart surgery.

I suggest that you get all Mormons to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that their God regrow that missing limb. What do you think the outcome of this entirely objective test would be?

What if someone would pray and not tell you?

 

[Sapiens]

what wrong with your language. 1010101010101010101010101010101010101010

What is the significance of 73,300,7751,850 decimal?

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

I was born and raised a staunch atheist, in an atmosphere of similar contempt and disdain for people of faith. And I remained so for decades. I eventually began to question my own beliefs, after I recognized them as such.. and stopped believing that the majority of humanity was 'brainwashed'

Belief in a creator is the conclusion of the vast majority of free thinking humanity, atheism in contrast has only reached such levels with oppression of faith- e.g. USSR, North Korea, Communist China
And where this oppression has subsided, faith is returning naturally

Well I'm in the preventive point that they shouldn't have muscled into nihilism just so they have proof that faith can come. A double cup is when I twice hate you for it.

 

[Thumper]

I agree with you; I rather think it is more a lesson on clean living, than effective prayer, but then again I was diagnosed with a terminal disease - 19 years ago.

And I was diagnosed in 2003 with a terminal disease. So what? Any of us could die tomorrow in a car crash.

(But, if you do, can I have your heart?)

 

[Thumper]

What is the significance of 73,300,7751,850 decimal?

I thought 42 was the right answer?

 

[Sapiens]

What if someone would pray and not tell you?

Then it either means nothing (if no new growth of limb) or there is a mysterious growth of limb. Do you know of any such cases? Is it unreasonable to assume that a fair amount of time has been wasted in such prayer with no cases of regrowth?

 

[Sapiens]

I thought 42 was the right answer?

Thanks for the fish.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

What is the significance of 73,300,7751,850 decimal?

I don't know but I think the commas are off.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Then it either means nothing (if no new growth of limb) or there is a mysterious growth of limb. Do you know of any such cases? Is it unreasonable to assume that a fair amount of time has been wasted in such prayer with no cases of regrowth?

The prayer might not ever say... grower I don't know.