Citta

[von bek]

Discernment is conditioned.

 

[von bek]

The mind's first direct experience of the unfabricated is its first taste of awakening. This experience is the result of an act of discernment. Because the unfabricated neither arises nor passes away, it's always potentially discernible. This is why awakening always happens in the flash of a moment. But, because ordinary human discernment is weak and unreliable, it has to be trained and developed to discern for sure the subtlety of what's always there. This is why the path of practice is gradual, and why there are stages in its development.

The Buddha lists three ways of discernment: through listening, through thinking, and through the development of the mind through meditation.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books15/Thanissaro-Bhikkhu_Discernment_v140930.pdf

 

[von bek]

"And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html

The abhidhamma lists panna as a cetasika:

The wisdom factor (paññaa) enables one to see things as they truly are, that is, in the light of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and selflessness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mendis/wheel322.html#cetasika

 

[atanu]

"But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

The point is that discernment of any kind is possible because of nibbana. Further, when nibbana itself is unconditioned, its discernment cannot be conditioned and dependent.

 

[Osal]

The point is that discernment of any kind is possible because of nibbana. Further, when nibbana itself is unconditioned, its discernment cannot be conditioned and dependent.

Discernment is possible because of attatchment to a sense of self. Something so conditioned cannot comprehend the unconditioned.

 

[atanu]

Discernment is possible because of attatchment to a sense of self. Something so conditioned cannot comprehend the unconditioned.

That is rise of vijnAna, the intellect-sensual consciousness and not discernment based on prajnAna.

Discernment, even when conditioned cannot rise from unconsciousness. Just as a wave rises because of ocean.

So, in this context, the nibbana sutra clarifies:

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

Best.

 

[atanu]

I am unable to give you a satisfactory answer as to how Nibbana is linked to the other ultimates, if at all. I have a book that I checked out from my monastery that goes deep into Theravada understandings of what Nibbana is, perhaps a good explanation lies in it. I will search through and see if I can find anything relevant to your question. When I think about Nibbana, I think in terms of cessation.

I should add that the question I am interested in is how Buddhist commentators have understood Nibbana's relationship to the aggregates. I believe that Nibbana is independent of the aggregates in terms of not needing them to be. But, are the aggregates independent of Nibbana? This is where I really hesitate to speculate without a better grounding in what better minds have said on the subject. The Buddha teaches there is no First Cause, so Nibbana is not the cause of dependent origination. Besides, if Nibbana is permanent, as the Buddha teaches, it would not make sense that a change would arise in Nibbana that would cause dependent origination to begin. Not to mention that one of the points of dependent origination is that it is a closed and complete system without any outside agency, personal or impersonal, needed. So if Nibbana is not the cause of the aggregates, in what other way could they be related? If they aren't related, how could the attainment of Nibbana from within the aggregates even be possible, which the Buddha not only teaches, He serves as an example of?

Thank you for your help.

Regading the matter of the link between nibbana and other ultimates and also the samsara, I believe that the answer is simple and is contained in the nibbana sutta:


Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.


The 'discernment', is the common link, IMO. YMMV. Best wishes.

 

[von bek]

The 'discernment', is the common link, IMO. YMMV. Best wishes.

That is a good answer. It allows for the idea that Nibbana is not the cause of samsara, while allowing a path out of samsara into Nibbana. The reality of dependent origination is satisfied, while the unborn, uncreated reality of Nibbana is preserved as well.

 

[von bek]

The point is that discernment of any kind is possible because of nibbana. Further, when nibbana itself is unconditioned, its discernment cannot be conditioned and dependent.

I respectfully disagree with your idea that the discernment of the unconditioned cannot be itself conditioned. Discernment of the Four Noble Truths certainly qualifies as wisdom of the highest kind, from the Buddhist point of view. In that discernment, the particular Truth serves as the object of discernment. Discernment of this Truth, sublime as it is, is a mental object that arises when the perception of the Truth in question makes contact with the mind sense-base. Its arising happens in the same way as any other mental object happens in terms of process. While Nibbana is unconditioned, its discernment is very much conditioned. That is how I view the Buddha's teachings on the matter.

 

[atanu]

Thank you for your help.

Regading the matter of the link between nibbana and other ultimates and also the samsara, I believe that the answer is simple and is contained in the nibbana sutta:

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

The 'discernment', is the common link, IMO. YMMV. Best wishes.

That is a good answer. It allows for the idea that Nibbana is not the cause of samsara, while allowing a path out of samsara into Nibbana. The reality of dependent origination is satisfied, while the unborn, uncreated reality of Nibbana is preserved as well.

Thank you. This is a sacred achievement.

I respectfully disagree with your idea that the discernment of the unconditioned cannot be itself conditioned. Discernment of the Four Noble Truths certainly qualifies as wisdom of the highest kind, from the Buddhist point of view. In that discernment, the particular Truth serves as the object of discernment. Discernment of this Truth, sublime as it is, is a mental object that arises when the perception of the Truth in question makes contact with the mind sense-base. Its arising happens in the same way as any other mental object happens in terms of process. While Nibbana is unconditioned, its discernment is very much conditioned. That is how I view the Buddha's teachings on the matter.

I think we may take more time on this. However, I will pose a question here.

Our vijnAna view is formed-created, fabricated. Can we with this discern that which is unformed-uncreated-unfabricated? For example, nibbana is unformed, when we discern it as it is with our apparatus that has form (nAma-rupA) as its basis? Will what is discerned be immediately be not polluted and become formed and created.

It is my experience of meditation and understanding that nibbana cannot be discerned as an object, separate from oneself (since that will immediately destroy the unformed nature of nibbana) but can only be discerned by the unformed-uncreated-unfabricated -- in absolute oneness.

But let us give it time.