Civil War 2.0

[Valjean]

It doesn't take an 1860's style civil war to radically change the relationship between government and the governed. We've been seeing changes here reminiscent of other countries' historical descent into authoritarianism, and the changes have accelerated to the point that they're becoming noticed even by the general public.

 

[F1fan]

And those states got their pigu kicked.
To reiterate, the federal government grants some
rights by legislation & Constitution. States are
able to grant more, but unable to rescind those
federally granted rights.
It's useful that even though the fed doesn't
recognize the right to abortion, many states do,
including mine.
Long live states' rights.

Thje federal law used to protect repoduction rights until the republicans approved anti-abortion judges to the supreme court. So there's your hostility to rights, the republicans. And if they get control of congress they will legislate the state's right out of existence. Then what will you say?

I don't mind state's right that are relative to conditions in the state, but there has to be a national standard to most rights. Having a patchwork set of rights is absurd and divisive.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thje federal law used to protect repoduction rights until the republicans approved anti-abortion judges to the supreme court. So there's your hostility to rights, the republicans. And if they get control of congress they will legislate the state's right out of existence. Then what will you say?

I say that I think you're missing the point about
how states being able to grant rights over &
above those granted by the federal government
is a good thing.
Or do you oppose this ability of the states?

 

[F1fan]

I say that I think you're missing the point about
how states being able to grant rights over &
above those granted by the federal government
is a good thing.
Or do you oppose this ability of the states?

I have no way to form an opinion since I have no idea what you mean by this. What rights can a state offer over and above the federal government? And if rights are good enough for a state, why not all 50?

 

[Valjean]

Ignoring that guns haven't been outlawed, I think you're forgetting some rather important factors, namely law enforcement and military. They're far more sophisticated, trained, and equipped, and have vastly more numbers than any dopey rednecks dumb enough to take them on.

But they're also, themselves, riddled by these same rednecks, and the attitudes that motivate them. Police and military forces are often co-opted by nascent authoritarian régimes.

 

[Valjean]

Just citing one of the differences between then and now. Actually there were many differences, which is why it's hard to base predictions on what will happen in the near future based on what happened in the past.

History may not repeat, but it does rhyme. Similar historical events often follow similar developmental patterns. We ignore history at our peril.

America is now in fascism’s legal phase | Jason Stanley

The US’s history of racism is fertile ground for fascism. Attacks on the courts, education, voting rights and women’s rights are steps to toppling democracy

www.theguardian.com

Ruth Ben-Ghiat on the danger of strongmen leaders and how to rein them in

Many countries face autocracy, but there are ways to resist and preserve democracy, writes a historian

www.economist.com

Fascism in America: It’s Happening Here, According to Professor's New Book

Political scientist Anthony DiMaggio, in new book, says fighting fascism must become a regular topic of conversation in homes, schools and elsewhere.

www2.lehigh.edu

 

[Valjean]

They just don't want to see a centralization of federal government where it becomes one hive mind, one party , and only one voice, like the left people's wing so dearly wants to implement, in clear violation of the ratification of states outlined in the Constitution itself.

It's not the left that's undermining democracy, promoting authoritarianism and intolerance, and embracing a strong-man as head-of-state.

 

[Valjean]

I say that I think you're missing the point about
how states being able to grant rights over &
above those granted by the federal government
is a good thing.
Or do you oppose this ability of the states?

States are often more motivated by local and short term interests. The federal government, it is hoped, will take a broader and longer view of matters.

 

[F1fan]

It's not the left that's undermining democracy, promoting authoritarianism and intolerance, and embracing a strong-man as head-of-state.

Funny how our far right friends say untrue things that suggest they heard it from media that spreads disinformation, and disinformation is crucial to authoritarian states. Yet here we see these same folks insist it is democrats who are doing what MAGAs are doing, or attempting to do.

 

[Estro Felino]

Traitors vs patriots.
Commoners vs élites.
Warmongers vs pacifists.

That's the cultural divide. It has nothing to do with left vs right.

 

[Father Heathen]

Traitors vs patriots.
Commoners vs élites.
Warmongers vs pacifists.

That's the cultural divide. It has nothing to do with left vs right.

Don't bring your weird fan-fiction into this.

 

[Valjean]

Funny how our far right friends say untrue things that suggest they heard it from media that spreads disinformation, and disinformation is crucial to authoritarian states. Yet here we see these same folks insist it is democrats who are doing what MAGAs are doing, or attempting to do.

The US used to have a federal Fairness Doctrine, that required on-air media to air both sides of the controversies of the day. Republican legislation chipped away at it till it was no more, opening the field to partisan talk radio and news, sans alternative points of view.

There used to be laws regulating how many radio, TV, and print outlets could be owned by a single entity, with a view to guaranteeing the dissemination of diversity of opinions. These laws, too, came under the republican axe. Media began consolidating print, TV and radio outlets under single corporate control, and monopolizing regional markets. These monopolies were overwhelmingly controlled by the monied interests -- the Republicans. Thus began an era of widespread, right-wing propaganda.

Centrist and left media did exist, but they had a very limited market share. The right offered nationwide, right-wing propaganda shows like the Rush Limbaugh Show free of charge, supported by corporate interests. The left could not do so. Radio stations nation- wide snapped up the free shows. Few people heard any alternative viewpoints. The working classes, once pretty solidly Democrats, now support the Republican party.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have no way to form an opinion since I have no idea what you mean by this. What rights can a state offer over and above the federal government?

Federal government: There is no right to abortion.
Michigan government: There is a right to abortion.

 

[Revoltingest]

States are often more motivated by local and short term interests. The federal government, it is hoped, will take a broader and longer view of matters.

States are often more progressive than the federal
government. There'd be no gay marriage if SCOTUS
hadn't seen the writing on the walls of many states.

 

[Stevicus]

History may not repeat, but it does rhyme. Similar historical events often follow similar developmental patterns. We ignore history at our peril.

America is now in fascism’s legal phase | Jason Stanley

The US’s history of racism is fertile ground for fascism. Attacks on the courts, education, voting rights and women’s rights are steps to toppling democracy

www.theguardian.com

Ruth Ben-Ghiat on the danger of strongmen leaders and how to rein them in

Many countries face autocracy, but there are ways to resist and preserve democracy, writes a historian

www.economist.com

Fascism in America: It’s Happening Here, According to Professor's New Book

Political scientist Anthony DiMaggio, in new book, says fighting fascism must become a regular topic of conversation in homes, schools and elsewhere.

www2.lehigh.edu

This illustrates exactly why it's been incredibly foolish for America's leadership to neglect the economy as they have. My point was that the strong economy back in the 50s and 60s was able to keep the country stable enough to avoid extremist uprisings (even if it may have been "interesting times"). Nowadays, we don't have that kind of luxury anymore, thanks to decades of mismanagement, myopia, and greed.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I imagine that even the most ardent Gravy Seal LARPers/cosplayers would **** their pants and shelter in their basement the moment bullets actually started flying.

It's kind of like how so many people talk big about "wishing I was there with my gun" when there's a mass shooting but mass shooters are never (that I've heard of) taken out by a good guy with a gun.

 

[Stevicus]

Centrist and left media did exist, but they had a very limited market share. The right offered nationwide, right-wing propaganda shows like the Rush Limbaugh Show free of charge, supported by corporate interests. The left could not do so. Radio stations nation- wide snapped up the free shows. Few people heard any alternative viewpoints. The working classes, once pretty solidly Democrats, now support the Republican party.

It's not that the left could not compete against Rush Limbaugh and others on the right-wing radio circuit. It's just that they chose not to do so. Reagan's popularity may have frightened the left into moving further right to the point where they started supported corporatism and militarism again. The media became far too wimpy, vacuous, and wishy-washy to be able to stand up to the right wing. As a result, Reagan became the Teflon President, while what passed for "left" back then was too busy mesmerized by rampant consumerism, cocaine, and Madonna videos.

 

[Revoltingest]

This illustrates exactly why it's been incredibly foolish for America's leadership to neglect the economy as they have. My point was that the strong economy back in the 50s and 60s was able to keep the country stable enough to avoid extremist uprisings (even if it may have been "interesting times"). Nowadays, we don't have that kind of luxury anymore, thanks to decades of mismanagement, myopia, and greed.

That's absurd. Don't buy into Maga propaganda
that the economy is terrible. It's doing very well.
It's still hard here to find workers. Pay is up.
Inflation is down. All we need to do is cut the
tax burden, particularly on lower level wage earners.
The Magas who rage & roil, portending more
violent conflict aren't poor. Their problem is
succumbing to Trump's cult.

 

[Revoltingest]

.....a mass shooting but mass shooters are never (that I've heard of) taken out by a good guy with a gun.

I recommend searching the news.
You'll discover otherwise.

Armed civilian neutralized Indiana mall shooter in just 15 seconds, authorities say

Three victims were killed and two more were wounded in the attack.

www.cbsnews.com

Mass shootings are given far more coverage
in mainstream media than shootings that a
civilian stops. Why? Consumers are more
interested in bad than good news. Hence
media tendency to feed doomscrollers.

 

[PureX]

Not gonna happen. Soon Trump will be gone, and the criminal igmoramuses that are trying to mimick him to gain and hold onto power are not appealing to the vast majority of Americans. This whole obsession will soon be behind us and forgotten and the oligarchs will go on robbing us all blind with impunity, as always.

The danger is not from civil war, it's from a civil collapse brought on by the unlimited greed of capitalism and the poverty and suffering it's causing within the population. When that reaches a critical point, the current system is going to collapse and things will get very bad.

Not civil war, civil collapse.