Civil War Begins in Iraq

[robtex]

I thought sheer population wise there were quite a number of more ****e's than sunni's? It seems to me they are all violating the 5th pillar of Islam. In the celebration of Ramandan Mohammad (pbuh) received a copy of the Koran from Allah according to their beliefs. The Koran united all muslims and any division by muslism is a violation of the will of Allah and forbidden by the Koran. I wish somebody would have the insight to say that to them. Here is
Although as Majikthise pointed out the unity of the muslims through the Koran tends to inspire them to want to kill Jews and Christians instead making it only a short-term solution at best to play the Ramadan card.

CNN's latest article on the civil conflict.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/24/iraq.main/index.html

footnotes:

ramadan
http://www.funmunch.com/events/ramadan/about_ramadan.shtml
5 pillars of Islam
http://www.islam101.com/dawah/pillars.html

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am all for carpet nuking the entire area, if things get out of hand. Might make for some pretty sunsets for a few years. There is no such thing as a Muslim moderate.

Somewhat like a final solution? It's so much cleaner than gas ovens ...

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Civil war in the area is nothing new, It has been going on for ever.
The Bush thing was just an interruption.
To be honest they prefer fighting each other, they can understand what it is about.

How will it end?
It won't, it might calm down for a while, but it will start again.
It is both tribal and sectarian, that is a mix that is perfectly explosive.

Terry_____________________
Blessed are those who bring peace, they shall be children of God

 

[YmirGF]

Somewhat like a final solution? It's so much cleaner than gas ovens ...

Yes it is a very final solution, and I did state, IF things got out of hand.

PS: I am DYING to know just what Robtex edited out of your message Jayhawker. Feel free to PM me. I promise I won't issue a fatwa over it. I am always curious about your thinking Jay... honest. :clap (A bit brusque, but always scintillating.)

 

[Flappycat]

Oooooooooooo!

Let's see, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia http://www.swans.com/library/art7/djovan01.html, Eastern Europe in the earlier half of the last century, etc... My! Haven't we fought a lot of wars over religion! Wow! Now, does anyone here have any question as to how much of a disaster this can shake out to be? I just want to see how thoroughly deluded a person can possibly get. It's not that they don't want a peaceful way of life, but a few little problems keep getting in the way. People keep dropping bombs on their stuff. They don't have enough to eat, dang, they don't have clean water in some places. It's a mess, and it's not entirely their fault.

I don't think there's anyone involved who is thoroughly without cause to be blamed, so, stuff any finger-pointing. What I want to know is how the denizens of this forum would suggest going about fixing this mess, now that it's been made, because, if you've got any bright ideas, there are millions of people who need them put into motion. I don't have any ideas. The well is dry. I've got nothing, zero, zip, nada. To me, it looks hopeless. I could be depressed over this, but I won't be because the geniuses RIGHT HERE on this forum are going to dream up a solution to this whole mess and put it into practice as soon as possible, and the sooner the better.

Cya Monday, and good luck.

 

[YmirGF]

What I want to know is how the denizens of this forum would suggest going about fixing this mess, now that it's been made, because, if you've got any bright ideas, there are millions of people who need them put into motion. I don't have any ideas. The well is dry. I've got nothing, zero, zip, nada. To me, it looks hopeless. I could be depressed over this, but I won't be because the geniuses RIGHT HERE on this forum are going to dream up a solution to this whole mess and put it into practice as soon as possible, and the sooner the better.

The more I think about it, the better the solution gets in dividing Iraq into 3 separate countries. Divvy up the pie, wish them well. Flappycat, I hear ya, however vastly greater minds have wrestled this one to the ground for ages now. All to no avail. One almost gets the feeling that these folks do no want any lasting peace.

 

[Darkdale]

It's not that they don't want a peaceful way of life, but a few little problems keep getting in the way. People keep dropping bombs on their stuff. They don't have enough to eat, dang, they don't have clean water in some places.

This is utter nonsense and completely lacking in perspective. Things are getting better there every day. If they choose civil war, it's not because they don't have stuff. It's because they want to kill each other. That's why I say protect the Kurds. They aren't bothering anyone (except for the bigot Sunnis and Shiites that hate them for being Kurds... and in Turkey and their bigots that had them for being Kurds... and the Russians, for the same reason). Yeah - it's not because they hate each other or anything. I mean, they've shown such desire for peace and it's not like these people are easily led to violence right? It's not like a cartoon drawling would set them off or anything. They had so much more happiness and opportunity under Saddam, yeah, sure, right.

 

[Ardent Listener]

In our arrogance, we forgot that the people of Iraq no longer remember what "freedom" is. We are offering them something they do not comprehend. If the diplomats were clever, they would divide Iraq into three separate countries, with very large walls forming the borders between them.

I am all for carpet nuking the entire area, if things get out of hand. Might make for some pretty sunsets for a few years. There is no such thing as a Muslim moderate.

How could things "get more out of hand" than nuking the entire area?

 

[Majikthise]

How could things "get more out of hand" than nuking the entire area?

The entire area trying to nuke everyone else?

 

[Smoke]

The more I think about it, the better the solution gets in dividing Iraq into 3 separate countries.

Because partition worked out so well in India-Pakistan and Palestine and Vietnam and Korea and Cyprus and Ireland?

 

[maggie2]

It seems to me that the real problem started when Bush invaded Iraq to start with. On another thread in this forum someone was talking about Fred Phelps and suggesting that he be put to death because he is violent. Now on this thread the discussion is about leaving the Iraquis to fend for themselves and bombing them. Does anyone really think that these types of ideas will create any form of peace?

I know that everyone is frustrated about this situation but truly, we all know deep in our hearts that bombs and killing is not the answer. I'll never forget that when Mother Theresa was asked to participate in an anti-war protest she refused. She said that she would be FOR PEACE but not against war. I think she was wise.

In this instance I think we need to look to people who have successfully dealt with horrible situations...people like Gandhi, Mandella, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr. and others who have created great social change in peaceful ways. Their inspiration may provide some insight into how to help resolve this problem. What can we learn from their experiences and how they went about dealing with problems that seemed impossible to solve? None of them would have suggested bombs or killing I know that for sure. And it is them who I think we must emulate, not someone like Hitler.

 

[Majikthise]

It seems to me that the real problem started when Bush invaded Iraq to start with. .

No, the real problem, ancient ignorance and hate driven religious zeal, started just a little while before that.:sarcastic

 

[Majikthise]

In this instance I think we need to look to people who have successfully dealt with horrible situations...people like Gandhi, Mandella, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr. and others who have created great social change in peaceful ways. Their inspiration may provide some insight into how to help resolve this problem. What can we learn from their experiences and how they went about dealing with problems that seemed impossible to solve? None of them would have suggested bombs or killing I know that for sure. And it is them who I think we must emulate, not someone like Hitler.

Your solution is just the extreme opposite of the ideas you don't like.
Killing everybody else sucks and being killed sucks.
But if you turn the other cheek too many times you are just being stupid and will most likely get a knife in the back.
Ghandi, yeah, India is a wonderful place today isn't it.

 

[YmirGF]

Because partition worked out so well in India-Pakistan and Palestine and Vietnam and Korea and Cyprus and Ireland?

I suppose it is better to just let them kill each other?

 

[michel]

It seems to me that the real problem started when Bush invaded Iraq to start with. On another thread in this forum someone was talking about Fred Phelps and suggesting that he be put to death because he is violent. Now on this thread the discussion is about leaving the Iraquis to fend for themselves and bombing them. Does anyone really think that these types of ideas will create any form of peace?

I know that everyone is frustrated about this situation but truly, we all know deep in our hearts that bombs and killing is not the answer. I'll never forget that when Mother Theresa was asked to participate in an anti-war protest she refused. She said that she would be FOR PEACE but not against war. I think she was wise.

In this instance I think we need to look to people who have successfully dealt with horrible situations...people like Gandhi, Mandella, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr. and others who have created great social change in peaceful ways. Their inspiration may provide some insight into how to help resolve this problem. What can we learn from their experiences and how they went about dealing with problems that seemed impossible to solve? None of them would have suggested bombs or killing I know that for sure. And it is them who I think we must emulate, not someone like Hitler.

Thank you, for a bit of light! I agree with everything you say. It may be idealistic and impracticable, but I do my best to live by the idea of 'love conquers all'. This is a 'nasty' one, and it really looks like there is no way of helping these people to come together in peace; but I believe that everything should be done with that goal in mind.

 

[maggie2]

Your solution is just the extreme opposite of the ideas you don't like.
Killing everybody else sucks and being killed sucks.
But if you turn the other cheek too many times you are just being stupid and will most likely get a knife in the back.
Ghandi, yeah, India is a wonderful place today isn't it.

I didn't think I suggested a solution, actually. I thought I was just suggesting that there might be other alternatives that need to be explored. I also don't think I suggested 'turning the other cheek'. What I did suggest is that we can't create peace by waging war.

As to Ghandi and the state of affairs in India today, I realize that India needs to come into the 21st centure, however, this does not negate the fact that Ghandi brought about great change through peaceful means.

 

[Smoke]

In this instance I think we need to look to people who have successfully dealt with horrible situations...people like Gandhi, Mandella, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr. and others who have created great social change in peaceful ways. Their inspiration may provide some insight into how to help resolve this problem. What can we learn from their experiences and how they went about dealing with problems that seemed impossible to solve? None of them would have suggested bombs or killing I know that for sure. And it is them who I think we must emulate, not someone like Hitler.

I agree, but the real non-violent resistance must come from within their own culture. In the meantime, it might help if we stop making things worse.

 

[Smoke]

I suppose it is better to just let them kill each other?

In the examples I listed, did partition keep them from killing each other?

 

[Darkdale]

It seems to me that the real problem started when Bush invaded Iraq to start with. On another thread in this forum someone was talking about Fred Phelps and suggesting that he be put to death because he is violent. Now on this thread the discussion is about leaving the Iraquis to fend for themselves and bombing them. Does anyone really think that these types of ideas will create any form of peace?

Yes. There are only two kinds of peace: Peace through strength & Peace through mutual respect.

I know that everyone is frustrated about this situation but truly, we all know deep in our hearts that bombs and killing is not the answer. I'll never forget that when Mother Theresa was asked to participate in an anti-war protest she refused. She said that she would be FOR PEACE but not against war. I think she was wise.

Mother Theresa wasn't wise... she was just clever with words. She was a great gal, don't get me wrong, but she wasn't a political philosopher by any means. Bombs and killing are sometimes the answer, the question is, can you, from the violence, create liberty, security, and civility? If you cannot, then you must ask yourself if you can afford to do nothing. If you can't, then you must be courageous.

In this instance I think we need to look to people who have successfully dealt with horrible situations...people like Gandhi, Mandella, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr. and others who have created great social change in peaceful ways. Their inspiration may provide some insight into how to help resolve this problem. What can we learn from their experiences and how they went about dealing with problems that seemed impossible to solve? None of them would have suggested bombs or killing I know that for sure. And it is them who I think we must emulate, not someone like Hitler.

Their examples mean nothing in the case of the tension between the West and the Middle East. I understand that the koolaid and pixie dust feel good on the inside, and that talking about love and light and kindness feels good, but it means nothing. It produces nothing when faced with a lust for murder and death and hatred.

You must delve deeper into your historical studies to see how people like Hitler were stopped - To see how people like Napoleon were stopped - To see how the USSR was stopped - To see how Libya was disarmed - To see how European Crusaders were stopped and turned back.

 

[maggie2]

Yes. There are only two kinds of peace: Peace through strength & Peace through mutual respect.



Mother Theresa wasn't wise... she was just clever with words. She was a great gal, don't get me wrong, but she wasn't a political philosopher by any means. Bombs and killing are sometimes the answer, the question is, can you, from the violence, create liberty, security, and civility? If you cannot, then you must ask yourself if you can afford to do nothing. If you can't, then you must be courageous.

I disagree with you, Darkdale. I think Mother Theresa was very wise. And I also disagree that bombs are sometimes the answer. I do not believe in using bombs to resolve problems.

Their examples mean nothing in the case of the tension between the West and the Middle East. I understand that the koolaid and pixie dust feel good on the inside, and that talking about love and light and kindness feels good, but it means nothing. It produces nothing when faced with a lust for murder and death and hatred.

Their examples mean everything if we hope to create a peaceful world. We cannot create peace by waging war. I must say that I think your rude comments about koolaid and pixie dust are uncalled for. After all, this is a discussion and it shouldn't end up with sarcastic statements like that.

You must delve deeper into your historical studies to see how people like Hitler were stopped - To see how people like Napoleon were stopped - To see how the USSR was stopped - To see how Libya was disarmed - To see how European Crusaders were stopped and turned back.

And you must delve deeper into your historical studies to see how Ghandi, Mandella, King and others have brought about great change through non violence.

You have a right to your opinion, Darkdale, but I also have a right to mine and I do not appreciate your sarcasm. I respect your right to your opinion but I also expect that I be given this same courtesy.