Claims vs. Beliefs

[CG Didymus]

The problem is that it is not incorrect.

Its basically like me saying "I like dogs" that is a claim as well, but for most people it is not especially important whether or not that might be true or not. And even if it were I couldn't prove it or they wouldn't be able to trust me, because I could just pretend to like dogs. But none the less it is a claim in its standard use or form.

I would be certain that if I made a serious post claiming that UFOs were real or that the Earth is flat, that people would jump on it as well, so obviously context also matters.

But clearly its very important that both sides uses the same understanding of the word or it will go off track very fast. Because I think the majority of people can understand the difference between a claim in its standard use and that of a logical claim.

Obviously it tends to get messy quickly, because it gets mixed up in arguments as well and we might even use the word claim in both its form in the same discussion assuming that the other one understand what version we are referring too. I think its just how language is, it often create confusion, which is why it is important to ask for clarification when something is not clear.

How much difference is there in a person here on the forum saying, “The Baha’i Faith is the truth for today.” And, “I believe the Baha’i Faith is the truth for today”? I would think either way that they’d be expected to give reasons and proof way they believe it true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have made no claims.

You do so constantly. I recently quoted a post of yours and pointed out some, but not necessarily all, of the claims in it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly and I believe I said something very similar several posts ago but you denied it.

Maybe you think I denied it but I don't think I did. No matter.

No one is asking you to provide proof! Just evidence. We then determine if we agree. It's called discussion.

I have provided evidence but nobody considers it evidence, but that is not my problem because I don't care what anyone believes.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Holy moly! I cannot prove that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, ..

He claimed that he was not just a messenger but a manifestation of Allah. You do not have anything to prove that. You can't even prove the existence of God, that is another of your beliefs. In that case, there is always a possibility that whatever he said was false and just blurbs to impress people and establish his dynastic imamat. He did not have any new message. He was only regurgitating what had already been said by all religious leaders since the dawn of civilization. I do not understand why your God even had to send a new manifestation if there was nothing new in the message? He handed over his authority to his son who in turn handed the same to his grandson. Well, they enjoyed its benefits till the line lasted - smart people.

How much difference is there in a person here on the forum saying, “The Baha’i Faith is the truth for today.” And, “I believe the Baha’i Faith is the truth for today”? I would think either way that they’d be expected to give reasons and proof way they believe it true.

That, I think, is definitely a claim. It remains a belief if one keeps it to him/herself. But, when broadcasted, it becomes a claim, IMHO.

I have provided evidence but nobody considers it evidence, ..

It is about the feebleness, flimsiness of your evidence, that is why hardly anyone gives it any credit (at least in this forum).

 

[Trailblazer]

You do so constantly. I recently quoted a post of yours and pointed out some, but not necessarily all, of the claims in it.

Go ahead and post what you believe are claims and I will tell you why they are not claims.
I make no claims about my religious beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

How much difference is there in a person here on the forum saying, “The Baha’i Faith is the truth for today.” And, “I believe the Baha’i Faith is the truth for today”?

A hundred miles of difference.

“The Baha’i Faith is the truth for today” is a claim.

“I believe the Baha’i Faith is the truth for today” is not a claim, it is a statement of belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

It would be nice if believers could demonstrate that they know. But they only seem to be able to claim it and never have demonstrated proper knowledge.

If we could demonstrate what we know is true it would be a fact and not a belief.
I make no claims that my belief is true because I know I cannot prove it.

 

[Trailblazer]

He claimed that he was not just a messenger but a manifestation of Allah. You do not have anything to prove that. You can't even prove the existence of God, that is another of your beliefs.

No, I cannot prove that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger or a Manifestation of Allah and I cannot prove that God exists. I never said I could.

If I could prove it it would be a fact and not a belief.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Go ahead and post what you believe are claims and I will tell you why they are not claims.
I make no claims about my religious beliefs.

No, you made claims. You made statements about various topics as if they were facts. There was no qualifier included which means that you post claims.

Do you see what I just posted, It was a claim too. And if you need evidence to support it I can provide it for you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I cannot prove that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger or a Manifestation of Allah and I cannot prove that God exists. I never said I could.

If I could prove it it would be a fact and not a belief.

Then you should always add qualifiers to your posts. If you do not then they are claims.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If we could demonstrate what we know is true it would be a fact and not a belief.
I make no claims that my belief is true because I know I cannot prove it.

What does that have to do with the fact that you posted claims?

Claims can be true or false. They are not necessarily facts. I did not even judge whether your claims were true or false, I just noted that they were claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

In this post you made these claims

1. That there were "Messengers of Gd"

2. That they were real people . . .

3. And that there was objective evidence for them.

That is at least three claims in that post.

Trailblazer said: ↑
No, there is no objective evidence for God's existence, but there is objective evidence for Messengers of God because they were real people who lived and left their footprints in the sand.

Those are not claims by any stretch of the imagination.
Everything a person posts is not a claim.
They are facts and beliefs.

FACT: there is no objective evidence for God's existence
BELIEF: there is objective evidence for Messengers of God because they were real people who lived and left their footprints in the sand

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you made claims. You made statements about various topics as if they were facts. There was no qualifier included which means that you post claims.

I do not have to qualify everything I say with "I believe."
They are not claims. I make no claims about my beliefs, period.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then you should always add qualifiers to your posts. If you do not then they are claims.

I do not have to preface everything I say with I believe or else it is considered a claim.
That is all-or-nothing thinking.

What fallacy is all or nothing?

This chapter focuses on one of the common fallacies in Western philosophy called 'all or nothing (AON)'. AON presents a false dilemma by suggesting that there are only two options – either all or nothing – when in fact there are many more options in the middle ground between those two extremes. May 9, 2018

All or Nothing - Bad Arguments - Wiley Online Library

I suggest you read what @Nimos wrote about claims. #353
It is spot on. He is a confirmed atheist but he has his own opinions about claims and he has given it careful thought.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am tired of being accused of making claims. I am not making any claims because I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody.

The Messengers of God made claims in their scriptures. The main things they claimed were that:

1) They were sent by God
2) That God communicated to them
3) That God exists

I believe their claims but I am making no claims since I have nothing to claim.

Atheists assert that I am making claims so they can say that I have the burden of proof, but I am making no claims just because I believe the claims of the Messengers of God, so I have no burden of proof.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. The Messengers of God made the claims so they were responsible to meet the burden of proof. I believe that the true Messengers of God met their burden by providing evidence that supports their claims.

The evidence that supports the claims of any alleged Messenger of God is as follows:

1) Their Person (their character, as demonstrated by the life they led)
2) Their Revelation (the history, which is what they accomplished on their mission from God)
3) Their Words (the words that were attributed to them in scriptures, or what they wrote)

Anyone who wants to know if an alleged Messenger of God is a true Messenger of God is responsible to do their own research and look at the evidence that supports the claims of the alleged Messenger. I can point to where the evidence for Baha’u’llah resides but I am not responsible for doing other people’s homework.

According to my beliefs, God wants everyone to do their own homework and come to their own determinations because we are all responsible for our own beliefs. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else because we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

All this makes logical sense if people could only remove their bias and think about what I just said. Of course, it would require atheists to think differently than they have always thought about claims and evidence and see another point of view that they had never considered.

I thought I might add a few thoughts in hopes that they may offer some clarity to your thread.

These are my definitions and not offered as definitive or complete. I am open to constructive review and pointers.

A belief is what someone believes about something to put it rather simply. In other words, a person accepts that something is true without evidence. Or so I claim.

A claim is an assertion about the validity or truth of something. An object, a position, or a condition are things for which claims can be made.

Your statement that you are not making claims is a claim.

Generally, a person making a claim has the responsibility to support that claim or others can dismiss it without further acknowledgement. If they must, and I have often been that guy, this can be pointed out and support for the claim can be requested.

I am tall is a claim. A trivial claim for the context, but a claim none-the-less. You can accept it or deny it with little impact on the world around us. If pressed, I could back it up by listing my height. If I said 8 foot 7 inches, you could tell me you do not believe it. If I say 6 foot, you might go OK. Not really that tall, but taller than average for a man.

Arguments start over the presentation, disagreement and support of claims.

I don't know if this helps, but for whatever you find of worth in it, I hope it does. If you like it, then I will claim it. If you do not like it, I know someone I can blame it on.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you are stating your beliefs without the intent to assert they are true or believable, thus not claiming anything to anyone, then why post them at all?

This is the crucial question: why are you posting anything at all in a forum if you don't intend them to be claims to discuss?

I cannot claim that my beliefs are true because I cannot prove that they are true.
They are beliefs that people can discuss but they are not claims.

I suggest that you read what @Nimos wrote about claims. He is an atheist and he has analyzed this very well.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought I might add a few thoughts in hopes that they may offer some clarity to your thread.

These are my definitions and not offered as definitive or complete. I am open to constructive review and pointers.

A belief is what someone believes about something to put it rather simply. In other words, a person accepts that something is true without evidence. Or so I claim.

A claim is an assertion about the validity or truth of something. An object, a position, or a condition are things for which claims can be made.

Your statement that you are not making claims is a claim.

Generally, a person making a claim has the responsibility to support that claim or others can dismiss it without further acknowledgement. If they must, and I have often been that guy, this can be pointed out and support for the claim can be requested.

I am tall is a claim. A trivial claim for the context, but a claim none-the-less. You can accept it or deny it with little impact on the world around us. If pressed, I could back it up by listing my height. If I said 8 foot 7 inches, you could tell me you do not believe it. If I say 6 foot, you might go OK. Not really that tall, but taller than average for a man.

Arguments start over the presentation, disagreement and support of claims.

I don't know if this helps, but for whatever you find of worth in it, I hope it does. If you like it, then I will claim it. If you do not like it, I know someone I can blame it on.

I agree pretty much with everything you said except this:
Your statement that you are not making claims is a claim.

That is a statement about my intent, it is not a claim.

 

[ppp]

Where does ANY definition say that a statement of a belief is a claim?

The definitions you provided said that q statement or assertion is a claim. You keep trying to shove belief into it. But belief is not in the definition at all. Read your damned definition of a claim. Your state of mind is irrelevant as to whether or not it is a claim. It's a claim whether you believe your statement/assertion or not.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I agree pretty much with everything you said except this:
Your statement that you are not making claims is a claim.

That is a statement about my intent, it is not a claim.

We may have to agree that we disagree on that, but I think we can live with a little disagreement. Though, I may see some distinction there. I could be persuaded to consider it a statement of fact.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Trailblazer said: ↑
No, there is no objective evidence for God's existence, but there is objective evidence for Messengers of God because they were real people who lived and left their footprints in the sand.

Those are not claims by any stretch of the imagination.
Everything a person posts is not a claim.
They are facts and beliefs.

FACT: there is no objective evidence for God's existence
BELIEF: there is objective evidence for Messengers of God because they were real people who lived and left their footprints in the sand

No, when you say that they are "Messengers of God" that is a statement. If you just believe it you need a qualifier. The same apply to the rest. Those were all claims since you forgot to qualify your statement.