Claims vs. Beliefs

[Subduction Zone]

Yours too (imho)

He knew that was a claim. The point was that sometimes people make claims and then try to deny making them. There is nothing wrong with having a belief , but a belief is very far away from having evidence for something and that bothers them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is a useful question. How we can know is by reading about Baha'u'llah and there are accounts from people who knew Him in these texts.

Well, acolytes and those who followed him will always sing his praises. Those who did not fall in line, were hounded out of the community as 'covenant breakers' including most of his family.

You still haven't told me how you'd show me that YOU exist. I can't prove I exist. I freely admit that.

Actually. he does not exist. What exists is a perturbation in the force fields (if you go by Advaita Hinduism). It is all an illusion, 'maya', a picture presented by our mind.

 

[viole]

that:

1) They were sent by God
2) That God communicated to them
3) That God exists

Number 3) is superfluous.

ciao

- viole

 

[Aupmanyav]

Number 3) is superfluous.

I think that is the most important. 3) should have been at 1). Prove God before any one claims to be whatever (prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi). Then, there will be no claim chicanery.

 

[viole]

1) Their Person (their character, as demonstrated by the life they led)
2) Their Revelation (the history, which is what they accomplished on their mission from God)
3) Their Words (the words that were attributed to them in scriptures, or what they wrote)

This is circular. It would be like someone claiming to be the messenger of the Flying Spaghetti Monster because he lives according to the gospel of the FSM. Drinks a lot of beer and dresses like a pirate, among other things.

It is obvious that claiming to behave according to what God X Scriptures say, does not increase at all the likelihood, nor the plausibility, of having been sent by God X. Same thing if said Scriptures are written after the fact.

ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I think that is the most important. 3) should have been at 1). Prove God before you claim to be whatever (prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi).

Yes, but if someone claims to have been sent by God, and to have communicated with God, it looks a bit strange to add: btw, God exists. Only crazy people would claim to have communicated with someone who they might think it does not exist.

ciao

- viole

 

[stvdv]

He knew that was a claim.

Good to know (not ironic)

The point was that sometimes people make claims and then try to deny making them

It happened to me recently...a lot. Hence my specific reply

but a belief is very far away from having evidence for something and that bothers them.

Very far away...I don't know...evidence can happen in 1 sec

I call it belief if no evidence. If evidence I don't call it belief

Each Religion has many believers, so there are many who do not know for sure, as many lack evidence. That on itself will not bother them if they had Self Confidence

 

[Aupmanyav]

Only crazy people would claim to have communicated with someone who they might think it does not exist.

Well, you can count me as one, but I have not come across any evidence for it.

 

[RestlessSoul]

No. It is a statement of my personal opinion.

If you state a personal opinion on the internet, expect to have it attacked. Not questioned, not constructively challenged, not considered then politely rejected: expect it to be attacked, probably brutally.

That seems to be the nature of the beast online. I agree that it's a shame.

 

[Clara Tea]

I am tired of being accused of making claims. I am not making any claims because I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody.

The Messengers of God made claims in their scriptures. The main things they claimed were that:

1) They were sent by God
2) That God communicated to them
3) That God exists

I believe their claims but I am making no claims since I have nothing to claim.

Atheists assert that I am making claims so they can say that I have the burden of proof, but I am making no claims just because I believe the claims of the Messengers of God, so I have no burden of proof.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. The Messengers of God made the claims so they were responsible to meet the burden of proof. I believe that the true Messengers of God met their burden by providing evidence that supports their claims.

The evidence that supports the claims of any alleged Messenger of God is as follows:

1) Their Person (their character, as demonstrated by the life they led)
2) Their Revelation (the history, which is what they accomplished on their mission from God)
3) Their Words (the words that were attributed to them in scriptures, or what they wrote)

Anyone who wants to know if an alleged Messenger of God is a true Messenger of God is responsible to do their own research and look at the evidence that supports the claims of the alleged Messenger. I can point to where the evidence for Baha’u’llah resides but I am not responsible for doing other people’s homework.

According to my beliefs, God wants everyone to do their own homework and come to their own determinations because we are all responsible for our own beliefs. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else because we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

All this makes logical sense if people could only remove their bias and think about what I just said. Of course, it would require atheists to think differently than they have always thought about claims and evidence and see another point of view that they had never considered.

Revelation 17:18:

I am tired of being accused of making claims. I am not making any claims because I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody.

The Messengers of God made claims in their scriptures. The main things they claimed were that:

1) They were sent by God
2) That God communicated to them
3) That God exists

I believe their claims but I am making no claims since I have nothing to claim.

Atheists assert that I am making claims so they can say that I have the burden of proof, but I am making no claims just because I believe the claims of the Messengers of God, so I have no burden of proof.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. The Messengers of God made the claims so they were responsible to meet the burden of proof. I believe that the true Messengers of God met their burden by providing evidence that supports their claims.

The evidence that supports the claims of any alleged Messenger of God is as follows:

1) Their Person (their character, as demonstrated by the life they led)
2) Their Revelation (the history, which is what they accomplished on their mission from God)
3) Their Words (the words that were attributed to them in scriptures, or what they wrote)

Anyone who wants to know if an alleged Messenger of God is a true Messenger of God is responsible to do their own research and look at the evidence that supports the claims of the alleged Messenger. I can point to where the evidence for Baha’u’llah resides but I am not responsible for doing other people’s homework.

According to my beliefs, God wants everyone to do their own homework and come to their own determinations because we are all responsible for our own beliefs. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else because we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

All this makes logical sense if people could only remove their bias and think about what I just said. Of course, it would require atheists to think differently than they have always thought about claims and evidence and see another point of view that they had never considered.

Opinion of Clara Tea:

Revelation 17:18:

"And the woman [Whore of Babylon] which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

The Whore of Babylon is the most powerful nation in the world (the United States of America).

Revelation 17:1: "Judgement of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters." [Atlantic, Pacific, Gulf of Mexico, Great Lakes].

Revelation 17:2: "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication." [sex scandals: 1. President Bill Clinton and Monica.....2. President/ Director of the CIA George H. W. Bush and British citizen turned CIA secretary Jennifer Fitzgerald.....3. John Edwards eventually admitted six felony charges of violating Federal campaign contribution laws to cover up an extramarital affair with campaign worker Rielle Hunter]

Revelation 17:8: "beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Lets break this down to understand it:

1. Beast that was: President George H. W. Bush administration (Satanic demon named the dragon)

2. Beast that is not: was after President George H. W. Bush left office and the new administration was the President Bill Clinton administration.

3. And yet is: The Bush administration returned with the son of Bush as president (Satanic demon named the beast).

Revelation 17:14: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are writh him are called, and chosen, and faithful." [Iraq won the war against the United States because Christ was on Iraq's side].

Revelation 17:15: "Where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multiutdes, and nations, and tongues." [America is the great mixing pot of all nationalities].

Revelation 17:17: "Shall make her [Whore of Babylon] desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." [Forest fires in the US, and economic disasters, homelessness, debt, and disease--punishments for defying God by attacking Iraq].

Revelation 18:2: Babylon, the great is fallen [Iraq was defeated by the United States]

Revelation 18:8: "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." [Covid, forest fires]

Revelation 11:3: "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

Revelation 11:7 "The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them [the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3], and shall overcome them, and kill them."

Revelation 13 [description of the dragon and the beast--they were the ones who ruled the United States and attacked Babylon, Iraq, and continued as an occupying force, corrupting it. After the war in Iraq ended, the Taliban got fair elections, which resulted in anti-American leaders, after all of the election cheating was over.]

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I am tired of being accused of making claims. I am not making any claims because I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody. The Messengers of God made claims in their scriptures. I believe their claims but I am making no claims since I have nothing to claim.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

You post as if you have a clear idea what constitutes a claim, what constitutes a belief, and how they are different, but I don't think any participant in this thread knows why you call some things beliefs but not claims. I've given you my very clear definition of those words, how they overlap, and where they differ - a belief is something I consider true and a claim is something I say is true. The only difference between the two is that only the latter is expressed. By this reckoning, whenever you express a personal belief, you are making a claim. Apparently you use some other definition that allows you to say that you believe certain things but don't claim that they are correct even you post them. Until you clarify what the difference to you between an expressed belief and a claim are, you can expect endless confusion and dissent given how most others understand and use these words.

What are you actually denying when you say, "It's my belief but not my claim"? What does an expressed belief lack that had it possessed it, would elevate it to the status of a claim as you understand and use those words? I don't think anybody knows. I don't.

Whatever your answer, it would be helpful for you to understand how others use those words. If I, for example, were to tell you that once you express a belief, I consider that a claim, you can choose to adapt to that nomenclature by making comments like, "I know that you consider my expressed belief a claim, but I don't for the following reason. Still, I understand that when you call something a claim that you mean an expressed belief" rather." Instead, we see "I'm tired of people calling my beliefs claims." The former is an attempt to understand one another, the latter just adversarial and guaranteed to proceed as it has repeatedly in the past and on this thread as well.

I think that you can expect years more of this fruitless discussion for as long as you express beliefs and deny that they are claims of yours knowing how others will understand those words without explaining exactly what a claim is that an expressed belief is not to you.

If you state a personal opinion on the internet, expect to have it attacked. Not questioned, not constructively challenged, not considered then politely rejected: expect it to be attacked, probably brutally.

Is that what you think just happened here?

 

[Aupmanyav]

That seems to be the nature of the beast online. I agree that it's a shame.

Why is that a shame? What is wrong If one criticizes totally indefensible beliefs of evangelists bereft of any evidence?

.. a belief is something I consider true and a claim is something I say is true.

^^^

 

[SalixIncendium]

I am tired of being accused of making claims. I am not making any claims because I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody.

The Messengers of God made claims in their scriptures. The main things they claimed were that:

1) They were sent by God
2) That God communicated to them
3) That God exists

I believe their claims but I am making no claims since I have nothing to claim.

Atheists assert that I am making claims so they can say that I have the burden of proof, but I am making no claims just because I believe the claims of the Messengers of God, so I have no burden of proof.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. The Messengers of God made the claims so they were responsible to meet the burden of proof. I believe that the true Messengers of God met their burden by providing evidence that supports their claims.

The evidence that supports the claims of any alleged Messenger of God is as follows:

1) Their Person (their character, as demonstrated by the life they led)
2) Their Revelation (the history, which is what they accomplished on their mission from God)
3) Their Words (the words that were attributed to them in scriptures, or what they wrote)

Anyone who wants to know if an alleged Messenger of God is a true Messenger of God is responsible to do their own research and look at the evidence that supports the claims of the alleged Messenger. I can point to where the evidence for Baha’u’llah resides but I am not responsible for doing other people’s homework.

According to my beliefs, God wants everyone to do their own homework and come to their own determinations because we are all responsible for our own beliefs. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else because we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

All this makes logical sense if people could only remove their bias and think about what I just said. Of course, it would require atheists to think differently than they have always thought about claims and evidence and see another point of view that they had never considered.

It's quite simple, really.

If you are telling someone that there is any empirical truth to your beliefs, then you are making an claim, and the burden of proof lies with you.

 

[SalixIncendium]

You're claiming to believe they are true, right there.

True to whom?

If they're true to her, but not claiming that what she believes is objectively evident, she's not making a claim.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Everything a person says is not a claim.
It was a statement if fact. I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody.

This is also a claim.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Solution is simple...IF you are really tired of it...never trouble again...well almost never

Start each post with:
IMHO (or imo, though imho seems better)

But then you're making a claim that what you're saying is your opinion.

 

[SalixIncendium]

No, it is my opinion, not a claim, but you are free to disagree.

This is also a claim.

 

[ElishaElijah]

We have no evidence that there are any actual Messengers. So any writing of people claiming to be a Messenger is something we can doubt.

I’m a messenger and ambassador for Christ as well as my brothers in Christ on this forum. It’s what God has called us to be.
Everyone has a message and readily sharing it, everyone is a messenger.

“A wicked messenger falls into trouble, But a faithful ambassador brings health.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭13:17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭5:20-21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[firedragon]

Sure mate.

You still haven't told me how you'd show me that YOU exist. I can't prove I exist. I freely admit that.

Thats an interesting point.

In your perspective, if you dont exist, who typed your post?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Not correct. I am not a God. I am just one of the 8 billion humans and a 100 thousand trillion living beings and a 100 thousand quadrillion entities or more in the universe. Of course, my personal belief (Advaita Hinduism - non-duality) says that all that exists in the universe is 'Brahman' (physical energy). But that is not a God.

If @Verdant Nebulosity wants to deify you, they by definition, you would be a god.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Only crazy people would claim to have communicated with someone who they might think it does not exist.

Interesting. I talk to myself quite often.