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Climate change as a tool of tyranny

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Mann leapt from relative obscurity to international fame with his “hockey stick”, a graph of global temperatures from 1000 AD to the present, which was the showpiece at the iv launching of the 2001 IPCC Third Assessment Report in Shanghai in January 2001. The hockey stick became a corporate logo for the IPCC , but because it rubbed out the Mediaeval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age from the historical record, it was subjected to a US congressional inquiry. Eventually it was shown that random data fed into the algorithms used by Mann to produce his hockey stick from bristle cone pine tree ring data, also yielded hockey stick results.


Through his position, Connolley for years kept dissenting views on global warming out of Wikipedia, allowing only those that promoted the view that global warming represented a threat to mankind. As a result, Wikipedia became a leading source of global warming propaganda, with Connolley its chief propagandist.


To be clear, there is absolutely no allegation of research fraud or misconduct here, just simple disagreement. Instead of countering arguments and evidence via the peer reviewed literature, activist scientists teamed up with activist journalists to pressure a publisher – Springer Nature, perhaps the world’s most important scientific publisher – to retract a paper. Sadly, the pressure campaign worked.

It appears that your source mislabeled someone as a "whistleblower". He appears to have been one of the authors of the paper. He would likely give a very biased account of what happened.

Once again, before you can even start to offer "solutions" you need to learn the basics of AGW.

You should have done more than just find one of the few sources that support you. An unbiased search will find article that explain why the paper was retracted. Such as this one:

www.theguardian.com

Scientific journal retracts article that claimed no evidence of climate crisis

Publisher Springer Nature says 2022 article ‘not supported by available evidence’ as editors launch investigation
www.theguardian.com
www.theguardian.com

' Springer Nature said it had retracted the article, by four Italian physicists, after an internal investigation found the conclusions were “not supported by available evidence or data provided by the authors”.1

'Several climate scientists told the Guardian and later the news agency AFP that the article had misrepresented some scientific articles, was “selective and biased” and had “cherrypicked” information.

After those concerns were raised, Springer Nature announced in October it was investigating the article.'

Misrepresenting articles is a huge problem. It is a form of lying and lying is a huge no no in the sciences.

And these authors are clearly science deniers. They are working far outside their area of expertise. Do you remember "cold fusion"? That is what can happen when people do experiments in areas of science that they have no clue about.

One more point, the authors are science deniers when it comes to climate. Especially Dr. Alimonti:

'Two of the study’s four authors, retired nuclear physicist Renato Ricci and known climate science sceptic Franco Prodi, signed a declaration in early 2022 that there was “no climate emergency” and that “enriching the atmosphere with CO2 is beneficial”.

The study’s lead author, nuclear physicist Prof Gianluca Alimonti, argued in 2014 that there was no consensus among climate scientists that global warming was caused by human activity. At least six separate studies have shown that between 90% and 100% of climate scientists agree warming is caused by humans.'
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
This topic is climate change as a tool of tyranny. You are trying to keep framing the discussion with the foundation premise that the observed climate change can be explained exclusively as man made. This is a Lefty trick often used; reinforce a foundation premise and keep repeating. The Russian Collusion was also a done deal.

You have misrepresented the OP, which was:

If we assume anthropogenic climate control is real, then it is possible for unscrupulous governments to change the climate in ways that will tyrannize populations and control them.

Note that we start with the assumption that AGW is real and then propose a conclusion that it is being used as a tool of tyranny and control over a population. You are arguing that AGW is not real. That is, you want to drop the conditional assumption posed as the basis for the thread topic. AFAICT, Shaul is not a "leftie" trying to play a dirty trick on us. But you and other AGW deniers have derailed the discussion onto an old side track that leads nowhere. You still want to argue over the Mann's "hockey stick" theory? The attempts by those opposed to AGW were debunked long ago. We have been whacked over our heads repeatedly with that hockey stick, but perhaps your skull is thicker than others.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
The attempts by those opposed to AGW were debunked long ago.

Why would anyone believe that?

You can't seem to decide whether global warming is real or whether it is real, but manmade. In any case, this Wikipedia article (a source that you've already attacked) provides an excellent summary to why people would believe it: Climate Change Denial.

Michael Mann has described six stages of climate denialism"

  1. CO2 is not actually increasing.
  2. Even if it is, the increase has no impact on the climate since there is no convincing evidence of warming.
  3. Even if there is warming, it is due to natural causes.
  4. Even if the warming cannot be explained by natural causes, the human impact is small, and the impact of continued greenhouse gas emissions will be minor.
  5. Even if the current and future projected human effects on Earth's climate are not negligible, the changes are generally going to be good for us.
  6. Whether or not the changes are going to be good for us, humans are very adept at adapting to changes; besides, it's too late to do anything about it, and/or a technological fix is bound to come along when we really need it.[159]
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
You can't seem to decide whether global warming is real or whether it is real, but manmade. In any case, this Wikipedia article (a source that you've already attacked) provides an excellent summary to why people would believe it: Climate Change Denial.

Michael Mann has described six stages of climate denialism"

  1. CO2 is not actually increasing.
  2. Even if it is, the increase has no impact on the climate since there is no convincing evidence of warming.
  3. Even if there is warming, it is due to natural causes.
  4. Even if the warming cannot be explained by natural causes, the human impact is small, and the impact of continued greenhouse gas emissions will be minor.
  5. Even if the current and future projected human effects on Earth's climate are not negligible, the changes are generally going to be good for us.
  6. Whether or not the changes are going to be good for us, humans are very adept at adapting to changes; besides, it's too late to do anything about it, and/or a technological fix is bound to come along when we really need it.[159]
Did you not read the critique of Mann's work?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Did you not read the critique of Mann's work?

Which one? Do you think there has only been one attempt to critique his work? This debate has been going on for a very long time. Your engineering background does not make you an expert on climate science, but, having worked in a corporation full of engineers, I am far from surprised that you believe it does.

Anyway, here is just a recent story on the 2022 social media revival of the zombie viral meme attempting to falsify the "hockey stick":

Video falsely claims scientists exaggerated 'hockey stick' climate chart


"Randall Carson, a man with 40+ years experience in the climate field, calls out the climate change hoax," says a September 18, 2022 tweet. It links to a video that mentions a climate-change chart known as the "hockey stick".​
Climate skeptics have been attacking the "hockey stick" for years -- but numerous subsequent studies replicated its findings and the US National Academy of Sciences endorsed it.​
The post had been retweeted nearly 8,000 times as of October 7, 2022, and the video it shares had amassed more than 280,000 views. The clip was also posted on video sharing platforms YouTube, Rumble, *****ute and Odysee.​
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Which one?

This one:
Mann leapt from relative obscurity to international fame with his “hockey stick”, a graph of global temperatures from 1000 AD to the present, which was the showpiece at the iv launching of the 2001 IPCC Third Assessment Report in Shanghai in January 2001. The hockey stick became a corporate logo for the IPCC , but because it rubbed out the Mediaeval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age from the historical record, it was subjected to a US congressional inquiry. Eventually it was shown that random data fed into the algorithms used by Mann to produce his hockey stick from bristle cone pine tree ring data, also yielded hockey stick results.

https://www.lavoisier.com.au/articles/greenhouse-science/climate-change/climategate-emails.pdf

Do you think there has only been one attempt to critique his work?
I'm sure there are many. Mann's "science" is faith over facts, pure cult of warm.

Your engineering background does not make you an expert on climate science, but, having worked in a corporation full of engineers, I am far from surprised that you believe it does.
You don't know what you're talking about.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This one:
Yes,that has been refuted.
I'm sure there are many. Mann's "science" is faith over facts, pure cult of warm.
No. Mann's science was merely accurately plotting a compilation of temperature data. It has been confirmed many times already. No faith needed.

In fact it is just how the data falls. I have seen the work of others accused of being Mann's hockey stick even though they had nothing to do with his work.

Mann's hockey stick is boring. But only because it is reality.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Projection.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Did you not read the critique of Mann's work?
What amazes me is that the consequences of AGW is extremely serious and will be so catastrophic to most all nations that a breaking point is inevitable. I would think that even those who deny AGW they would apply a pascal's wager approach, and think that just in case it is real that they should support reduction of greenhouse gases. No humility whatsoever. It's as if deniers are acting through spite, not genuine doubts.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What amazes me is that the consequences of AGW is extremely serious and will be so catastrophic to most all nations that a breaking point is inevitable. I would think that even those who deny AGW they would apply a pascal's wager approach, and think that just in case it is real that they should support reduction of greenhouse gases. No humility whatsoever. It's as if deniers are acting through spite, not genuine doubts.
That is because they made it into a political debate. The scientific debate was over among experts more than a generation ago. And for all practical purposes it has been over for scientists as a whole for over fifteen years.

Perhaps if the political world had not been first exposed to it by that arch liberal . . . I cannot even say the name out loud:

Margaret Thatcher
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
This one:

Already refuted in the material I posted, which you likely ignored. There have been subsequent IPCC reports since that 2010 piece, and the Medieval warming argument has been thoroughly debunked in the past. It was not about global warming but a weather event confined to one corner of the world. If you are interested in the controversy, you'll read both sides of the debate.

I'm sure there are many. Mann's "science" is faith over facts, pure cult of warm.

It must seem easy for you to dismiss the more recent confirmations and the endorsement of the US National Academy of Sciences, which were cited in my last post. Apparently, you expect people to visit the links you post, but you feel free to ignore those posted in rebuttal to your posts. You don't have to read everything from those links, but you ought to look at the refutations of what you post.


You don't know what you're talking about.

How would you know? I spent 25 years of my life interacting with engineers, and I've heard some try to explain both sides of the climate change debate. As much as I respect their technical expertise in their own fields, they are not climate scientists, but they have the same tendency as ordinary folks in social media to read a few sources and come away with the impression that they really know as much as people who actually specialize in the science.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
What amazes me is that the consequences of AGW is extremely serious and will be so catastrophic to most all nations that a breaking point is inevitable.
Yes, just think of the loss in credibility of the state if it turns out that what was sold as AGW has natural causes.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Vastly cheaper than the loss of life.
Quite right. It was only the other day I saw sea level rise strike down an innocent group of sunbathers.

It comes down to truth, something that the state doesn't have a good relationship with because of the institutional bias against recognition of the intangibles of the natural world.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist


Yes, just think of the loss in credibility of the state if it turns out that what was sold as AGW has natural causes.

How Do We Know that Humans Are the Major Cause of Global Warming?

Fossil fuel fingerprinting​

We know that CO2 warms the world, that CO2 concentrations are at record-breaking levels, and that global temperatures are rising. But how do we know for certain that humans are the cause?​
The answer is in the science. The CO2 produced from fossil fuels carries a unique signature that differentiates it from CO2 produced from other sources. In brief, it carries a specific ratio of carbon isotopes that is only found in the atmosphere when coal, oil, or gas is burned.​
Scientists call this δ13C (pronounced "delta C thirteen"), and it’s a smoking gun. Since the 1880s, δ13C has changed in a way that could only happen if CO2 was increasingly coming from fossil fuel sources.​
This information tells scientists that human-caused fossil fuel emissions have been the main contributor to the rise in CO2 concentrations since the pre-industrial era.​

It isn't really hard to find this material on your own, if you really want to get the other side of the story from informed sources rather than make people in an internet forum do it for you.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Quite right. It was only the other day I saw sea level rise strike down an innocent group of sunbathers.

It comes down to truth, something that the state doesn't have a good relationship with because of the institutional bias against recognition of the intangibles of the natural world.
You mean this?
Sea level rise is causing record-breaking coastal flooding. It's only expected to get worse – even on days without rain.
Willfully blind people can choose to deny the sun by closing their eyes.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
No, I mean this:

A famous tree in the Maldives shows no evidence of having been swept away by rising sea levels, as would be predicted by the global warming swindlers. A group of Australian global-warming advocates came along and pulled the tree down, destroying the evidence that their “theory” was false.

 
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