• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Climate change as a tool of tyranny

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I can accept that the earth is warming; 1 degree of so, and climate appears to be changing in the past several decades, however, none of this new to the earth and natural processes have done this in the past. The alarmist puts all the eggs in the manmade basket to create an exaggerated man made narrative.

And you have failed already. It is not just the fact that it is warming it is the rate, and the tested and confirmed cause.


If you assume this is all manmade, an we can ignore zero natural contributions, this sets the path to the future down a road of big government control of the people and the economies, since these are where manmade comes from. One of the strategy is to blame problem on industrial countries, like USA and Europe, to create a giant money laundering flow to third world counties, where bribery and finder fees are the way of the game. A manufactured consensus would be a good way to start this power grab.

No one is assuming. In fact when you use that accusation you put the burden of proof upon yourself. How are you going to prove that AGW is an assumption when you do not appear to understand it?
If this was more natural, the approach would need to be different. It is less about a money grab and big government overreach. It is more about Big Government being more like the Peace Corp. Red Cross and National Guard reacting to disasters and finding ways to minimize preventable problems and prepare people for the changes.

But again, the evidence tells us that this is not natural.
Why do you think Biden climate Secretary of State; Kerry, avoids accountability? If the goal was to help and not just help yourself, he would be more open to get the word. But sneezing around is more about bribes and kickbacks toy maintain the illusion that dies not benefit by open science discussion.
This is another accusation that you would need to support with reliable soruces.

Alright, here is another test of your competency. Do you know if they have confirmed that CO2 levels have been increasing? How do they know that or why don't they know that? If it is increasing how can they possibly tell that the CO2 is from man?
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
What you got from me was a reference to an authoritative source on the subject. I'm not a climate scientist...
You're going w/ the pro-AGW group. I respect that, that's fine. You can say that this group is the majority tho there really are many who say that the topic is controversial. How about your being willing to say that you don't have the scientific background to form an opinion and pending a better understanding you're simply going along w/ those w/ a particular view?

My thinking is that you and I do in fact enjoy a scientific understanding adequate for reviewing this subject, but what I gather from you is that you have no interest in exploring the subject on this forum. Please tell me if I err or you're reconsidering.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
The person making a claim of change, such as climate change, has the burden of proof, beyond flashing the prestige of others. Show us the science so we can duplicate your experiments.
This is the nut of it that I'm trying to explore, the fact that a lot of folks first decide that they don't understand the subject, and then they proceed to form a heart felt belief on it. It seems contradictory and I'm trying to find out what I'm missing.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You're going w/ the pro-AGW group. I respect that, that's fine. You can say that this group is the majority tho there really are many who say that the topic is controversial. How about your being willing to say that you don't have the scientific background to form an opinion and pending a better understanding you're simply going along w/ those w/ a particular view?

My thinking is that you and I do in fact enjoy a scientific understanding adequate for reviewing this subject, but what I gather from you is that you have no interest in exploring the subject on this forum. Please tell me if I err or you're reconsidering.
I doubt if you do. I asked you more than once to justify your beliefs. You did not answer.

Please explain the Greenhouse Effect in your own words.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
You're going w/ the pro-AGW group. I respect that, that's fine. You can say that this group is the majority tho there really are many who say that the topic is controversial. How about your being willing to say that you don't have the scientific background to form an opinion and pending a better understanding you're simply going along w/ those w/ a particular view?

I'm going with what climate scientists say, and the evidence seems quite indisputable. I've visited the glaciers in Alaska and seen the evidence. The fact that there is a consensus among climate scientists that AGW is real impresses me, not that politicians are for or against it. I have a strong enough scientific background to understand how the methodology works, so the opinions of those with expertise in climate science form the basis of my opinion. I don't know what "better understanding" you are waiting for. Are you studying for a degree in that science? Do you think you understand it well enough to "do your own research"? What you should do is the same thing any reasonable person would do--pay attention to what actual climate scientists are saying about AGW, not what your favorite political commentator or blogger is saying. The controversy is all political, not scientific.

My thinking is that you and I do in fact enjoy a scientific understanding adequate for reviewing this subject, but what I gather from you is that you have no interest in exploring the subject on this forum. Please tell me if I err or you're reconsidering.

You definitely err. I have been interested in this subject all my life, and I've been following it for decades. I consider it the most serious existential threat that human beings face--far worse than the prospect of nuclear war. All climate models in the past have heretofore been way too conservative. We are facing catastrophic threats from extreme weather conditions far earlier than they expected. This year has been the worst yet recorded in human history, and it doesn't look like things are going to get any better in the foreseeable future. So I'm confident that it is you who will be reconsidering, and not me.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
This is the nut of it that I'm trying to explore, the fact that a lot of folks first decide that they don't understand the subject, and then they proceed to form a heart felt belief on it. It seems contradictory and I'm trying to find out what I'm missing.
Maybe they read about what the insurance companies are saying about soaring insurance payouts, which those companies themselves attribute to climate change. Or maybe they look at the trillions of dollars spent by motor manufacturers on electric vehicles. Or at the carbon tax system in the EU. Or they see the wind turbines springing up everywhere. Or maybe they live in Hawaii, or Greece, or Australia or California and have seen the fires. Or in China and have seen the floods.

In short the evidence is all around us, not only of changes in our weather but that governments and business, all across the world, take this very seriously indeed. So even a person with little science background has ample reason to think it must be a real thing, on the basis that these organisations are most likely not all run by morons.

For those of us that do have a science background, it is very easy indeed to understand the effect, of course. CO2 and water vapour absorb in the infra red, whereas oxygen, nitrogen and argon don’t. CO2 goes up, slowing down the rate at which heat from the sun can escape to space, and that raises the water vapour concentration too, which amplifies the effect.
 
Last edited:

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
MSN is not the source there. American Insider is. They are so new that there is no rating of the yet, but it does not appear to be a news sources. When trying to refute science you need scientific sources, not opinion pieces.

AGW has been supported endlessly. They have met their burden of proof. Have you heard of the Dunning Kruger effect? If you cannot properly explain the Greenhouse Effect you are in the upper left part of the graph:

View attachment 80696

To be able to demand evidence you need to be able to demonstrate that you can understand the evidence.
Try me!

I tend to think you guys; Climate change salesman and women, are memorizing bottom lines based on political prestige. Therefore you are operating on the left side of the above curve; inflated sense of mob prestige based on celebrity.

I would put myself about 3/4 the way to the Right on the man-made subject, but much farther right if we discuss the impact of water on natural climate change; from the atmosphere to the earth's core.

Global warming is about a global average, but does not explain the regional spikes this summer. The climate models did not predict this summer. Nobody said in advance, it would be as hot as it was, in those places based on the man made models. They always play Monday morning quarterback, and then pretend to be coach of the year. The manmade models did not see it coming, because they left out key variables that are taboo to discuss, due to gravy train politics in science.

Scientists are specialists and a specialists is not about global claims. Being specialist, you can pick a side on the political divide; targeted topic, and still do your science specialty, well. The science can be good, for what it is, but the full spectrum science can also become incomplete, if some stones are led unturned; no funding or preer review. These gaps in knowledge will create fanaticism, since deep down, often at an unconscious level, one will sense something is missing, but one is not allowed to think. You need to drown it out.

I am not the one pushing a narrative, but I am one of the ones challenging the taboo fanaticism in science.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Try me!

I tend to think you guys; Climate change salesman and women, are memorizing bottom lines based on political prestige. Therefore you are operating on the left side of the above curve; inflated sense of mob prestige based on celebrity.

I would put myself about 3/4 the way to the Right on the man-made subject, but much farther right if we discuss the impact of water on natural climate change; from the atmosphere to the earth's core.

Global warming is about a global average, but does not explain the regional spikes this summer. The climate models did not predict this summer. Nobody said in advance, it would be as hot as it was, in those places based on the man made models. They always play Monday morning quarterback, and then pretend to be coach of the year. The manmade models did not see it coming, because they left out key variables that are taboo to discuss, due to gravy train politics in science.

Scientists are specialists and a specialists is not about global claims. Being specialist, you can pick a side on the political divide; targeted topic, and still do your science specialty, well. The science can be good, for what it is, but the full spectrum science can also become incomplete, if some stones are led unturned; no funding or preer review. These gaps in knowledge will create fanaticism, since deep down, often at an unconscious level, one will sense something is missing, but one is not allowed to think. You need to drown it out.

I am not the one pushing a narrative, but I am one of the ones challenging the taboo fanaticism in science.
More extreme weather events are what the climate change models predict.

What are these taboo variables?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Try me!

I tend to think you guys; Climate change salesman and women, are memorizing bottom lines based on political prestige. Therefore you are operating on the left side of the above curve; inflated sense of mob prestige based on celebrity.

Please do not tell falsehoods about others.
I would put myself about 3/4 the way to the Right on the man-made subject, but much farther right if we discuss the impact of water on natural climate change; from the atmosphere to the earth's core.

Global warming is about a global average, but does not explain the regional spikes this summer. The climate models did not predict this summer. Nobody said in advance, it would be as hot as it was, in those places based on the man made models. They always play Monday morning quarterback, and then pretend to be coach of the year. The manmade models did not see it coming, because they left out key variables that are taboo to discuss, due to gravy train politics in science.
Oh, you are failing rather badly. You are conflating weather and climate. This years spikes are due to a combination of the two. People that understand AGW can see this so yes, this is predicted by AGW.
Scientists are specialists and a specialists is not about global claims. Being specialist, you can pick a side on the political divide; targeted topic, and still do your science specialty, well. The science can be good, for what it is, but the full spectrum science can also become incomplete, if some stones are led unturned; no funding or preer review. These gaps in knowledge will create fanaticism, since deep down, often at an unconscious level, one will sense something is missing, but one is not allowed to think. You need to drown it out.

And even worse now you are going with conspiracy theory nuttery. You were given a chance and failed. You appear to be upper left.
I am not the one pushing a narrative, but I am one of the ones challenging the taboo fanaticism in science.
Not true at all. So, how does the Greenhouse Effect work?
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
Simply saying that a lot of scientific data and rationale for global warming was presented and discussed with you before. Why reinvent the wheel in every new thread?
Great question. My understanding here is that here on this thread I was asking Copernicaus...
...my understanding is that some of us (you included?) say that the climate is changing in a dangerous and sever manner because of man made CO2. My thinking is that since the rest of us are not making this claim then it is up to the Climate advocates to explain the claim, not the rest of us. Am I missing something?
--and he replied...
Yes. You need to visit this web page for a quick overview of what climate scientists know about the effect of anthropogenic CO2 emissions on climate. Note that the OP stipulates to the reality of anthropogenic climate change and presumably accepts that scientific consensus that it is anthropogenic. I haven't been trying to debunk climate change deniers, although I realize that there are still a lot of people out there who are convinced that it is some kind of hoax. I'm assuming that Shaul, the author of the OP, is not among them.

Climate change impacts

--and when I inquired--
Please help me out here. What I'm getting from you is that you can't explain it but you can point to others who've explained it enough for your satisfaction. Is that right?
--then you got into what happened a year ago on some other thread about some other data. Copernicaus and I are looking into this here and now. I am trying to find out how he is thinking now so I can communicate w/ him here. If there was something that was said by someone a year ago that you remember and that pertains to how Copernicus is thinking then please share it.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
Maybe they read about what the insurance companies are saying about soaring insurance payouts, which those companies themselves attribute to climate change. Or maybe they look at the trillions of dollars spent by motor manufacturers on electric vehicles. Or at the carbon tax system in the EU. Or they see the wind turbines springing up everywhere. Or maybe they live in Hawaii, or Greece, or Australia or California and have seen the fires. Or in China and have seen the floods.

In short the evidence is all around us, not only of changes in our weather but that governments and business, all across the world, take this very seriously indeed. So even a person with little science background has ample reason to think it must be a real thing, on the basis that these organisations are most likely not all run by morons.

For those of us that do have a science background, it is very easy indeed to understand the effect, of course. CO2 and water vapour absorb in the infra red, whereas oxygen, nitrogen and argon don’t. CO2 goes up, slowing down the rate at which heat from the sun can escape to space, and that raises the water vapour concentration too, which amplifies the effect.
Sounds like you have a decent grasp of the scientific method, I'd be grateful if you could explain a few things about this topic. Please help me understand the basic premise here. For us to understand scientifically what is happening we have to be able to observe and measure things. For climate change, please tell me what is being measured. Is it the warming of the earth?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Great question. My understanding here is that here on this thread I was asking Copernicaus...

--and he replied...

--and when I inquired--

--then you got into what happened a year ago on some other thread about some other data. Copernicaus and I are looking into this here and now. I am trying to find out how he is thinking now so I can communicate w/ him here. If there was something that was said by someone a year ago that you remember and that pertains to how Copernicus is thinking then please share it.
What I am saying is that the claim has been explained to you earlier. So why are you asking Copernicus to explain it again?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Sounds like you have a decent grasp of the scientific method, I'd be grateful if you could explain a few things about this topic. Please help me understand the basic premise here. For us to understand scientifically what is happening we have to be able to observe and measure things. For climate change, please tell me what is being measured. Is it the warming of the earth?
That and the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere, principally.

In fact it was Svante Arrhenius (of chemical rate theory fame*) who was the first to write about the potential warming effect of more CO2 in the atmosphere, around 1900. So the basic idea has been around for ages. Oxygen, nitrogen and argon have no dipole in the molecule to couple to IR electromagnetic radiation, so they are transparent to IR. But CO2 and water do have dipoles and do absorb. Radiation in the visible range reaches the Earth's surface from the sun, where it is absorbed and warms the ground. Warm objects emit IR radiation. So that is what the surface of the Earth re-radiates upward. At night this radiation goes out through the atmosphere into space, balancing the energy of the incoming radiation from the sun. Gases that absorb in the IR intercept this radiation from the surface and re-emit it in random directions. So instead of going straight out, it bounces around in the atmosphere for a long time - more retained heat. With water vapour, there is an equilibrium between evaporation from the oceans and rainfall. If due to CO2 the atmosphere warms a bit, that equilibrium moves a bit, since warmer air can accommodate more water vapour before it starts to condense. (You can look up graphs of saturated vapour pressure vs. temperature). The effect is that the warming due to CO2 alone is amplified by water vapour.

The are other measurements that confirm this is going on. I read recently that there is a trend to decreasing temperature in the upper atmosphere. This is consistent with the model. Since the exit of heat is delayed by the greenhouse gases, it reaches these high altitudes more slowly than before, so the lower atmosphere heats up while the upper atmosphere gets colder.

Obviously, collecting all these measurements over time is a complex business, as are the atmospheric models that have been constructed to predict the effects, but the evidence is pretty clear now.

It has certainly convinced almost all governments, the motor industry, the fossil fuel industry (in which I used to work) and the insurance industry. I read the Financial Times and every day now there is at least one article on some aspect of the changes we will need to make to the way we meet our energy needs. One day it may be the geopolitics of lithium mining and refining, another the changes to electricity grids to support more distributed power generation, or the pros and cons of carbon permit trading systems......it's a constant drumbeat now.

The days when climate change was just the concern of a few lefties in bobble hats are long gone. It's on us, and huge changes are afoot. It may be more apparent to me in London than to you in Panama, if that is where you are. Also from my background I'm perhaps more au fait with the issues of the energy transition. But it's real, it's transnational and it's very big.


* Optional extra nerd-out :):-
Arrhenius equation: rate constant, k = A.exp(-Ea/RT), where Ea is the activation energy of the rate limiting step. (A is a proportionality constant, known simply as the "pre-exponential factor", which in practice relates to the probability of the molecules being correctly oriented to react in each encounter.)
 
Last edited:

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Try me!

I tend to think you guys; Climate change salesman and women, are memorizing bottom lines based on political prestige. Therefore you are operating on the left side of the above curve; inflated sense of mob prestige based on celebrity.

I would put myself about 3/4 the way to the Right on the man-made subject, but much farther right if we discuss the impact of water on natural climate change; from the atmosphere to the earth's core.

Global warming is about a global average, but does not explain the regional spikes this summer. The climate models did not predict this summer. Nobody said in advance, it would be as hot as it was, in those places based on the man made models. They always play Monday morning quarterback, and then pretend to be coach of the year. The manmade models did not see it coming, because they left out key variables that are taboo to discuss, due to gravy train politics in science.

Scientists are specialists and a specialists is not about global claims. Being specialist, you can pick a side on the political divide; targeted topic, and still do your science specialty, well. The science can be good, for what it is, but the full spectrum science can also become incomplete, if some stones are led unturned; no funding or preer review. These gaps in knowledge will create fanaticism, since deep down, often at an unconscious level, one will sense something is missing, but one is not allowed to think. You need to drown it out.

I am not the one pushing a narrative, but I am one of the ones challenging the taboo fanaticism in science.
You're making the mistake of imagining that because YOU are so deeply entrenched in politics that you can't seem to view anything outside of this us/them, left/right mentality, that everyone else is too. That's a you problem. Scientists are only concerned with evidence.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The are other measurements that confirm this is going on. I read recently that there is a trend to decreasing temperature in the upper atmosphere. This is consistent with the model. Since the exit of heat is delayed by the greenhouse gases, it reaches these high altitudes more slowly than before, so the lower atmosphere heats up while the upper atmosphere gets colder.
Yes, I remember that. The cooling of the mesosphere caused by human activities was one way that the theory was tested and confirmed. The ability to predict that cooling existed long before our ability to measure it. This sort of counterintuitive predictions is one of the better ways to test AGW. Most of us, me included, would not have thought that the mesosphere would cool, but as you stated it the concept does make sense. Here is a more recent article on that cooling and how it was predicted by AGW:

 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
--then you got into what happened a year ago on some other thread about some other data. Copernicaus and I are looking into this here and now. I am trying to find out how he is thinking now so I can communicate w/ him here. If there was something that was said by someone a year ago that you remember and that pertains to how Copernicus is thinking then please share it.

My response was to say that your concern is an irrelevant derail, since the OP stipulates to AGW and poses an entirely different question. I understand that you want to debate AGW, but you shouldn't try to derail a thread topic because you aren't really interested in the discussion. As far as I am concerned, AGW is not scientifically controversial. It is politically controversial. As Sayak83 was pointing out, the debate over whether global warming is manmade has been debated at length in other threads. We've all seen that debate and don't necessarily want to revisit it here. If you are interested in what makes me think global warming is manmade, my response is that my opinion is based on the scientific consensus. Scientists do a better job of explaining the data than I do.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
What I am saying is that the claim has been explained to you earlier. So why are you asking Copernicus to explain it again?
Please note what I said in the post you're replying to, that--

"...I am trying to find out how he is thinking now so I can communicate w/ him here..."

--and how previous explanations are not what we're talking about.
 
Top