Coach led prayer on high school football field

[lewisnotmiller]

Smells like more banishment of what culture puts in the box labeled "religion" to an unnecessary extent. Apparently, because the "secular" pep talks routinely given before a game are not put in the "religion" box, those are okay, even though they are functionally or precisely identical to various "religious" prayers.

There was an insightful comment I ran across in a reading somewhat recently regarding the reality of what "separation of church and state" actually means. Going to have to follow up on the literature there at some point, because it was quite poignant. Basic thrust of it is that this attempt to maintain separation basically just serves to hedge in what we call "religion" and what we don't call religion in a way that expresses strong cultural biases. As a religious minority I notice this a lot, as expressions of my religion would be put in the "secular" box and get a free pass. It's stupid, and inherently unfair.

Two competing thoughts leapt to me when reading the OP;

1) There doesn't appear to be any coercion, so let's not over-react.
2) He's in a position of authority (as a teacher) and therefore in a position of influence.

Balancing off those, I think it's better if he doesn't continue what he's doing given that it's against school policy. I'd be interested to know what you mean by 'secular pep talks' in particular, and how you'd see those as religious, or in either encouraging or discouraging religion. I'd also be interested if you do manage to dig up the literature you have mentioned re: separation of church and state.

 

[Quintessence]

Balancing off those, I think it's better if he doesn't continue what he's doing given that it's against school policy. I'd be interested to know what you mean by 'secular pep talks' in particular, and how you'd see those as religious, or in either encouraging or discouraging religion. I'd also be interested if you do manage to dig up the literature you have mentioned re: separation of church and state.

I don't know if I wrote the title down to look up later, and now I'm not sure what book I read it in, other than I know it was an academic work from my university library.

As for that idea of "secular" pep talks, the dialogues about "religion" in my country are almost exclusively framed around Abrahamic religions, particularly Christianity. This basically means that if a pep talk doesn't include a mention of Jesus or God or other things associated with the religion of Christianity it's labeled "secular." All pep talks are ritualistic invocations, regardless of their wording. They are rituals - specifically spells - designed to raise energy and inspire victory. Doing stuff exactly like that is part of my religion. But does this activity get labeled as religious? No, because it doesn't fit the cliché mold of "religion" in my culture.

 

[Skwim]

Well there ya go. That is what he was suspended for.

Nope. According to an ABC news release today (10/29/15):

"The Washington State high school football coach who had been warned to end his on-field, post-game prayers has been placed on paid administrative leave for continuing the practice."

His silent prayer became their prayer, and that's a no-no. He had the obligation to ensure it wasn't, and he didn't.

 

[Sees]

Next stop....Texas! All football coaches will be relieved from duty and the children will be saved.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't know if I wrote the title down to look up later, and now I'm not sure what book I read it in, other than I know it was an academic work from my university library.

Fair enough. I would have been interested to read it, but I totally understand.

As for that idea of "secular" pep talks, the dialogues about "religion" in my country are almost exclusively framed around Abrahamic religions, particularly Christianity. This basically means that if a pep talk doesn't include a mention of Jesus or God or other things associated with the religion of Christianity it's labeled "secular." All pep talks are ritualistic invocations, regardless of their wording. They are rituals - specifically spells - designed to raise energy and inspire victory. Doing stuff exactly like that is part of my religion. But does this activity get labeled as religious? No, because it doesn't fit the cliché mold of "religion" in my culture.

It's part of YOUR religion...but are you asserting it's religious regardless of intent?

 

[psychoslice]

So many like to pray in public, just to shove their own beliefs onto everyone else, its a sly way of preaching.

 

[Quintessence]

Fair enough. I would have been interested to read it, but I totally understand.

I'll have to see if I can track it down. I totally forgot about it until you brought it up in this thread again. It may be in the notes I took on that book on my computer somewhere. And, I think that book is still stuck in a drawer in my office because I haven't quite gotten around to taking it back into the library.

It's part of YOUR religion...but are you asserting it's religious regardless of intent?

Mostly I'm pointing out the absurdity of how we go about determining whether or not something is "religious." it is strongly biased towards Abrahamic religions. While this guy gets slapped around for it because what he did is widely recognized as religious, I have no doubt that I could lead a religious pep talk and not get slapped for it at all. This point stands regardless of what the intent behind the talk is. Apparently, the one is "unlawful" because it's recognized as religious, and I would get a free pass. That's stupid.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'll have to see if I can track it down. I totally forgot about it until you brought it up in this thread again. It may be in the notes I took on that book on my computer somewhere. And, I think that book is still stuck in a drawer in my office because I haven't quite gotten around to taking it back into the library.

lol...I used to have a regular collection of library books, then sheepishly walk them back to the library to pay my fines. They'd generally let me off, but there as always that one librarian...

Mostly I'm pointing out the absurdity of how we go about determining whether or not something is "religious." it is strongly biased towards Abrahamic religions. While this guy gets slapped around for it because what he did is widely recognized as religious, I have no doubt that I could lead a religious pep talk and not get slapped for it at all. This point stands regardless of what the intent behind the talk is.

We probably come at this from different angles, but I disagree. The fact that what he was doing was recognizable to others as religious is kinda the problem, at least in a pragmatic sense. I'm not sure this is purely an Abrahamaic thing, incidentally. What reaction would it cause if he performed a puja? I do think the recognition of what was being done as religious is a key tenet though.

Just as a recap, these were my initial reactions to the OP;

1) There doesn't appear to be any coercion, so let's not over-react.
2) He's in a position of authority (as a teacher) and therefore in a position of influence.

If what he was doing was not recognizable to others as religious, and there was no coercion involved, then by definition no-one would have a problem with it. Idealistically I can see what you mean, but a key principle in law making (whether literal laws or simply rules for groups) is that said laws need to be enforceable.

 

[Mister Emu]

His silent prayer became their prayer, and that's a no-no. He had the obligation to ensure it wasn't, and he didn't.

So yeah, he was suspended for a silent private prayer, because other people, that he cannot legally discourage from doing so, decided to pray as well. Likely because of the threat of suspension hanging over the coach's head, a situation created by the school system.

The school system's unconstitutional demand that he not silently and privately pray caused the circumstances that they now use to support the demand.

 

[Skwim]

So yeah, he was suspended for a silent private prayer, because other people, that he cannot legally discourage from doing so, decided to pray as well. Likely because of the threat of suspension hanging over the coach's head, a situation created by the school system.

But it wasn't private. He allowed others to pray with him. And he can discourage others by simply telling them he requires privacy. No biggie: "Go away!"

The school system's unconstitutional demand that he not silently and privately pray caused the circumstances that they now use to support the demand.

Think you got it backwards here. If he is going to pray, the law requires that he do so silently and privately, something the school system is required to uphold.

 

[TPaine]

So yeah, he was suspended for a silent private prayer, because other people, that he cannot legally discourage from doing so, decided to pray as well. Likely because of the threat of suspension hanging over the coach's head, a situation created by the school system.

The school system's unconstitutional demand that he not silently and privately pray caused the circumstances that they now use to support the demand.

How is one privately praying while kneeling in the middle of a football field surrounded by people? I thought Jesus said in Matthew 6:6

"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

? Also, how is the school system's demand unconstitutional when its following a series of SCOTUS school prayer decisions Engel v. Vitale, Abington School District v. Schempp, Lemon v. Kurtzman, Wallace v. Jaffree, Lee v. Weisman, and Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe.?

 

[Twilight Hue]

So long as no one's forced to be there, I don't give a damn.

Yea really. If it's voluntary then give the coach a break, if not, throw the rule book at him.

 

[LittlePinky82]

It's not lawful if it's a public school. The football coach is there on behalf of the school and a representative of the school and thus endorsing religion. Even if it's a "non-denominational" prayer it's still endorsing religion. We're supposed to have separation of church and state and the government can't endorse any religion over another. If it's a private school no problem because the government isn't endorsing the school who isn't endorsing the coach as a rep of the school.

Yea really. If it's voluntary then give the coach a break, if not, throw the rule book at him.

Doesn't matter. It's not supposed to happen period as he is a representative of the school and if the school is public is endorsed by the government and the government can't endorse religion. Now if you're a student and you're just standing there (or even with other students) praying on your own behalf that's not an issue because no one from the school is there endorsing it. When I was in high school in the 90's every morning before class this Christian club would go to the flag pole and pray. That was fine because, as far as I know, no teacher or anyone representing the school wasn't there. It was just the kids on their own.

Another thing is if you at sporting events have a student going and leading a prayer if it's a public school that is a no go. The school is endorsing and giving authority to the student to endorse religion and do a prayer. That's why the "moment of silence" is ideal because no one is endorsing a religion. If you want to say a prayer you can still do so and the school isn't endorsing a religion.

And just what is it with praying at a game? Do these same people say a prayer in the parking lot after grocery shopping? How about upon leaving a movie theater? Or after having their car washed and detailed?

Well, I don't know about everyone lol, but when prayer used to be at the high school I went to at these games it would be a basic prayer of everyone staying okay with not getting hurt and good sportsmanship. I don't know about these private prayers of course but I figure it's probably similar with kids saying "please let us win" lol.

So many like to pray in public, just to shove their own beliefs onto everyone else, its a sly way of preaching.

Sometimes that definitely is the case.

 

[Mister Emu]

He allowed others to pray with him.

He can't stop them. The official policy is to neither encourage nor discourage prayer.

Think you got it backwards here.

I think you do, he went and had a silent and private prayer, he shouldn't be expected to control or be held accountable for things others decide to freely do.

How is one privately praying while kneeling in the middle of a football field surrounded by people?

He went out there by himself, he was surrounded in the midst of prayer according to his account.

 

[Skwim]

He can't stop them. The official policy is to neither encourage nor discourage prayer.

He "had been warned to end his on-field, post-game prayers [and] has been placed on paid administrative leave for continuing the practice."
source

I think you do, he went and had a silent and private prayer, he shouldn't be expected to control or be held accountable for things others decide to freely do.

It wasn't a prayer in private. He didn't go anywhere, he prayed on the 50 yard line, and it wasn't silent

"At the end of every Bremerton High School football game, coach Joseph Kennedy "walks to the 50-yeard line and speaks a brief, personal prayer,"
source

Did you ignore these little items on purpose?

 

[TPaine]

He can't stop them. The official policy is to neither encourage nor discourage prayer.


I think you do, he went and had a silent and private prayer, he shouldn't be expected to control or be held accountable for things others decide to freely do.


He went out there by himself, he was surrounded in the midst of prayer according to his account.

He is a school employee and the football coach. It should be expected that his players would join him for that reason if for nothing else. He violated the Lemon Test by violating at least the the first test.

Every analysis in this area must begin with consideration of the cumulative criteria developed by the Court over many years. Three such tests may be gleaned from our cases. First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion, Board of Education v. Allen, 392 U.S. 236, 243 (1968); [403 U.S. 602, 613] finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion." Walz, supra, at 674

.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/403/602.htmlhttp://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/403/602.html

 

[Mister Emu]

It wasn't a prayer in private. He didn't go anywhere, he prayed on the 50 yard line, and it wasn't silent

You are correct that it wasn't silent.

The location of a prayer isn't the determination of whether is a private prayer or not. I say prayers all of the time while I am walking around crowded places, that doesn't alter that they are my private prayers.

Did you ignore these little items on purpose?

I read several articles on the situation, and which articles contain which information can get a little blurry. This article for instance, I assume it was referring to his practice before it was addressed by the school district and he altered it. First, he did a motivational speech: http://www.king5.com/story/news/loc...hs-coach-hopes-stop-leading-prayers/72429028/ then the private prayer, which he was suspended for.

 

[Skwim]

You are correct that it wasn't silent.

The location of a prayer isn't the determination of whether is a private prayer or not. I say prayers all of the time while I am walking around crowded places, that doesn't alter that they are my private prayers.

So what constitutes a private prayer? He said his out loud and on the fifty yard line in front of others.

 

[Mister Emu]

So what constitutes a private prayer?

To pray by yourself.

edit: To clarify, I did not mean "by yourself" in a physical sense.

 

[Skwim]

To pray by yourself.

edit: To clarify, I did not mean "by yourself" in a physical sense.

Fine, but then what does praying by yourself (in private) mean in the context of Kennedy's actions?