Cogito Ergo Sum.

[Willamena]

Reality is relative to our own senses, and as such, may be false.

False compared to what? What lies beyond reality?

 

[Sunstone]

What lies beyond reality?

The laundry.

 

[Willamena]

Are you familiar with the psychology of the senses? If not, simply refer yourself to any good psychology text on the subject. You will almost immediately see the senses do not represent reality, Dark Sun. At best, they symbolize it -- much as a map symbolizes a terrain, or an instrument reduces some reality to a simple quantity.

Symbolization is not representation?

 

[Sunstone]

Symbolization is not representation?

In the sense in which I'm using the word "representation" in this thread, a symbol is not representative. But the word "representation" has more than one meaning, and using it in a different sense from the one I'm employing, you could say that symbols represent reality. In that case, the question would become "precisely in what way do symbols represent reality".

 

[Willamena]

In the sense in which I'm using the word "representation" in this thread, a symbol is not representative. But the word "representation" has more than one meaning, and using it in a different sense from the one I'm employing, you could say that symbols represent reality. In that case, the question would become "precisely in what way do symbols represent reality".

I don't understand. What distinguishes a "representation" from the symbolized reality?

 

[Sunstone]

I don't understand. What distinguishes a "representation" from the symbolized reality?

All representations are symbols, but not all symbols are representations. A representation is in some sense a copy of what it refers to. A symbol is more than a copy. It can contain greater or less information about what it refers to than a representation. A representation to some extent resembles what it refers to. A symbol need not resemble what it refers to.

 

[Willamena]

What our mind interprets is the reality for our mind. But our mind alters as it awakens to greater consciousness and reality too changes for us. They say beyond a certain stage, we can see it all as an illusion and reality would be on a different plane for us.

And that reality would then be the "illusion".

 

[ChristineES]

I suppose I agree with Rene Descartes, who said our life could be a deception.

 

[Willamena]

All representations are symbols, but not all symbols are representations. A representation is in some sense a copy of what it refers to. A symbol is more than a copy. It can contain greater or less information about what it refers to than a representation. A representation to some extent resembles what it refers to. A symbol need not resemble what it refers to.

In terms of reality, how would you know the difference?

 

[Sunstone]

In terms of reality, how would you know the difference?

There's no need to bring reality into it, so far as I can see.

 

[Willamena]

There's no need to bring reality into it, so far as I can see.

Oh, my bad. I thought it was the topic.

 

[Valjean]

According to the Eastern traditions there are different levels of reality. Each is "real" to the individual perceiving and living in it, and each is realized to be illusory when an individual wakes to a higher level or analyzes her own reality scientifically.

There are several subjective realities, and there is one objective, big "R" Reality.
I think it's pretty well accepted that the picture our brain paints of the outside world is more an abstraction than a physically accurate representation of quantum reality.

 

[sandandfoam]

According to the Eastern traditions there are different levels of reality. Each is "real" to the individual perceiving and living in it, and each is realized to be illusory when an individual wakes to a higher level or analyzes her own reality scientifically.

There are several subjective realities, and there is one objective, big "R" Reality.
I think it's pretty well accepted that the picture our brain paints of the outside world is more an abstraction than a physically accurate representation of quantum reality.

That's really good. I need to digest it, but it's good.

 

[K.Venugopal]

This is really interesting. What stage would that be?

As to which is the stage [when we would realize that everything we now presume is the reality is an illusion], maybe the clue is in the Bible when it says, "Be still and know that I am God."

And, if reality is the illusion, then what is real?

For the dreamer the dream is a reality but on awakening the dream was just an illusion. Similarly, what we now say is the reality would no longer be so when we awaken to a higher consciousness. This is of course not to say that an illusion is of no value. Only it doesn’t last. That which ever is - that is the reality the Masters teach us to awaken to.

 

[Godfather89]

According to Gnosticism what we call the physical is not real but an illusion. In this illusion we have become two things: A) Ignorant of who we are and where we came from and B) Enslaved by the "external" entities that control most of our thoughts, feelings and (re)actions. So, if you believe those two premises to be true than the idea is supposed to become liberated from the "outside" and become introspective to find the root of your being which is who you really are.

It would be wise to note that the quotation came from Descartes who was a potential member of The Order of the Rosy Cross aka Rosicrucian's who had at least in part been influenced by the esoterica one of which is Gnosticism.

Now I'm not trying to to bring religion into this to much since Gnosticism is both influenced by religion (Essene Jews) and a Philosophy (Neoplatonism in large part). Because, Gnosticism is in part a philosophy it can be debated yet, if people understood it for what it really is they could agree with its central "tenets" one could call them.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

The second option is incoherent. It purports to equate reality with sensory data yet sensory data is gathered from an external reality.

If reality is not external then our senses are illusionary.

Reality is both external and internal. The difference is only in our heads.

So I would choose both options.

 

[djrez4]

I find it useful to consider that all the things I perceive are real. Until I discover otherwise, I'm not capable of walking through a brick wall or breathing underwater.

On the other hand, I'd like to think that the physical world is akin to a prison. There are walls and guards and years of indoctrination keeping us here. We're taught from birth that nothing exists outside the prison walls. How are we to know with any certainty until someone escapes and nobly returns to spread the escape route.

 

[Godfather89]

^ The Black Iron Prison illustrated by the Gnostic Saint Phillip K. Dick is the description you gave in your second paragraph. ^

 

[blackout]

Your own perception defines everything you see and experience.

I'm inclined to say "both"

 

[blackout]

According to the Eastern traditions there are different levels of reality. Each is "real" to the individual perceiving and living in it, and each is realized to be illusory when an individual wakes to a higher level or analyzes her own reality scientifically.

There are several subjective realities, and there is one objective, big "R" Reality.
I think it's pretty well accepted that the picture our brain paints of the outside world is more an abstraction than a physically accurate representation of quantum reality.

It is very interesting.
My own personal experience of "Reality Uplift" fits right in with what you have described in your first paragraph.
It's like, all the same "things" are there, but in/on that higher plane of awareness, it all changes.
Like looking at the world through new eyes. But your eyes are the same old eyes you had before.

It's your inner perception and energy flow that transforms everything else.

At least, that is what I currently percieve.