COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

[Crosstian]

Did the apostles violate the Sabbath, as written in the Old Testament?
According to the Pharisees, the apostles of Jesus Christ did violate the Sabbath.

You are taking the side of the accusation of the Pharisees who were negating God's commandment by their vain traditions according to the sinless Jesus? You are taking the side of 'the accuser of the brethren'? Do I understand your position correctly?

Let's look at Matthew 12 & Mark 2 & Luke 6 (though this thread is supposed to be about Colossians 2:16, and when that cannot be answered as we gave, everything, including the kitchen sink is throw in, and when those are addressed they circle back round to the beginning all over again as if nothing was given in the first place)

Priests cannot do anything they want. They cannot mow their grass on Sabbath [which has nothing to do with Temple service], but they could minister to the poor and sinner. They keep the Sabbath Holy, by doing the merciful [holy] work.

Jesus was not saying that the Priests were actually breaking God's Law. He was responding to pharisees about their misunderstanding of what it meant to break Sabbath. He was using their idea of 'violation', see verse 2.

Jesus said "guiltless", "... ye would not have condemned the guiltless." and that before he gave them their example [as he refers back to their original condemnation]. The pharisees had "condemned" based upon their tradition, not upon a Thus saith the LORD. Jesus then uses their definition of 'violation' and shows them from the scripture that their idea of violation is not actually transgression, thus absolutely innocent.

Christians are kings and priests, and thus they are to serve Christ Jesus continually, and to minister to the body of Christ Jesus, which is the temple of God on earth, and to shew mercy unto those without. To keep the common/profane labour to the days 1-6, and to keep the 7th day the Sabbath holy by doing no profane/common labour is obeying God and fulfilling the Sabbath of the LORD thy God. However, let us not forget that there is an endless holy work [John 5:17 KJB] that is never done and is in harmony with the Sabbath, and when such holy work is done, there is no violation of the Sabbath of the LORD, such are "guiltless". Honouring God in all things is the priority.

Mowing the grass on Sabbath is not holy work. It is profane/common work.

Helping someone who is sick by changing soiled sheets and cleaning the person on Sabbath is holy work. It is not profane/common work.

In obeying God in all His commands, there is no real violation, there are only the guiltless.

Neither Jesus, nor the disciples were actually transgressing God's Holy Law, but were only being accused by the Pharisees who were judging by their tradition.

Neither Jesus, nor the disciples were in any actual transgression or violation of God's law [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], for there is nothing in the holy commandment [2 Peter 2:21KJB] of the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God [Exodus 20:8-11 KJB] which states that it is a violation of the commandment to [1] walk in nature through a field, etc, or [2] to take handfulls of "corn" in a neighbour's field, [3] to eat that which was taken by hand, when not actually 'reaping" ["working" in the common [profane] manner, such as is done in daily [1-6] labour].

Jesus never sinned [Hebrews 4:15 KJB, etc], not in this instance, nor at any time. Jesus also never states in either the entire context of Matthew 12:1-8, or Mark 2:23-28 KJB, that the disciples themselves were sinning, or violating in any way the 4th commandment, but Jesus instead said that the disciples were "guiltless" [Matthew 12:7 KJB].

[1] Jesus and the disciples were out in nature, walking through the "corn" fields of a neighbour [Matthew 12:1; Mark 2:23 KJB]

[2] the disciples were hungry, and decided to 'graze' along the way in the walking [Matthew 12:1; Mark 2:23 KJB]

If Jesus broke the commandment:

That would be sin (1 John 3:4), which is exactly what the devil attributes to Jesus, even God.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Luk 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

This was within the Law of God, for provision was made for this very thing:

Deu 23:25 When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn.

Therefore, there is no violation on that sabbath day by either Jesus, or the disciples. At all. Period. It is without contestation. They were not reaping harvest, neither using a sickle (a work tool) to obtain the food required for sustaining life (which is in harmony with the Sabbath commandment, for example, see how many times Jesus healed upon the sabbath, to sustain and restore life), but merely gathered as much as needful with their own hands.

Now let us see who is the accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10) in this event, for the devil was among them, though unseen:

Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

Luk 6:2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

There were certain of the Pharisees which had been watching for anything that they might accuse Jesus of, and especially upon the sabbath, and since they could not find anything in His holiness, satan attempted to get to Jesus and accuse Him through the disciples.

The Pharisees had many man-made regulations (Matthew 15:3-9; Mark 7:6-13, even Paul warns of it, Colossians 2:8), that are not found sanctioned in the word of God, which contradicted the commandments of God. God's word in Deuteronomy 23:25 clearly gave the right unto the disciples to do what they did. This text, this law of God overrules (by order of the Throne of God) any man-made regulations such as the Pharisees had made. Even Jesus knew what the disciples were doing. If there were any sin (1 John 3:4) in it, Jesus Himself would have rebuked the disciples before all. Deuteronomy 23:25 is even valid on the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God, since one word or law of God (such as the spiritual law of the Sabbath, Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 7:14) does not violate or contradict any another word or law of God (being a civil law or statute; John 10:35). That regulation was given by God through Moses, and since God is all-knowing, God even knew in the days of Moses that this regulation would be challenged in this very moment (Isaiah 46:9-10) in the days of Jesus.

 

[Crosstian]

Did the apostles violate the Sabbath, as written in the Old Testament?
According to the Pharisees, the apostles of Jesus Christ did violate the Sabbath.

It was truly not men who accused (they being merely a channel, a conduit, a medium), but satan accused through them, in an attempt to gainsay God's word, and to bring stain upon Christ Jesus through those whom He associated Himself with.

Notice, that Christ Jesus did not cite Deuteronomy 23:25 in defense, which He could have done, but instead He went on the attack and turned their (satan's) own argument on its head, using the definition they (satan) provided, "Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?"

The disciples actions were absolutely "lawful" according to sacred cripture. Why then did the Pharisees say it was "not lawful"? It was because they were using a standard that was not found in scripture, but rather was in their man-made oral traditions. They had made their own regulations above the law of God itself. They had exalted the opinion of traditions of men above the word of God, even as satan himself alway attempts to do (Genesis 3; Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28; Revelation 12).

Notice what Jesus now says to the accusers in return. He goes not to Deuteronomy 23:25, as in defense of action, but instead goes on the offensive and straight to the heart of the matter of the sabbath itself, with citing from the scriptures (thus "It is written", instead of the Pharisees, 'heard it said'), two primary examples, so that there would be no room for excuses in case the Pharisees had attempted to justify Exodus 20:8-11 over and above Deuteronomy 23:25, rather than in harmony with it: [1] King (David, later of the throne) and [2] Priest (of the service of God in the Temple) (which the disciples of Christ Jesus are, for we are all kings and priests (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:5,9; Revelation 1:6, 5:10, 20:6). Thus, Jesus said:

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

Luk 6:3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;

Jesus first cites the example of "King" David (1 Samuel 16:13; Psalms 89:20):

1Sa 21:1 Then came David to Nob to Ahimelech the priest: and Ahimelech was afraid at the meeting of David, and said unto him, Why art thou alone, and no man with thee?
1Sa 21:2 And David said unto Ahimelech the priest, The king hath commanded me a business, and hath said unto me, Let no man know any thing of the business whereabout I send thee, and what I have commanded thee: and I have appointed my servants to such and such a place.
1Sa 21:3 Now therefore what is under thine hand? give me five loaves of bread in mine hand, or what there is present.

Jesus, referring to this event, then continues and says:

Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

Luk 6:4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

Which refers to the remaning events:

1Sa 21:4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women.
1Sa 21:5 And David answered the priest, and said unto him, Of a truth women have been kept from us about these three days, since I came out, and the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in a manner common, yea, though it were sanctified this day in the vessel.
1Sa 21:6 So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.

1Sa 22:10 And he enquired of the LORD for him, and gave him victuals, and gave him the sword of Goliath the Philistine.

There was a law in the scriptures, that Jesus was referring to, that related to events that transpired on the sabbath day, in which the bread of the presence, the bread from the table of shewbread was replaced by fresh bread, every 7th day, and the old bread was to be eaten by Aaron (High priest) and his sons (descendants) the priests:

Lev 24:5 And thou shalt take fine flour, and bake twelve cakes thereof: two tenth deals shall be in one cake.
Lev 24:6 And thou shalt set them in two rows, six on a row, upon the pure table before the LORD.
Lev 24:7 And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
Lev 24:9 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons'; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it is most holy unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute.

1Ch 9:32 And other of their brethren, of the sons of the Kohathites, were over the shewbread, to prepare it every sabbath.

The "house of God" is the Sanctuary or Temple of God (Judges 18:31, 20:18,26,31, 21:2; 1 Chronicles 6:48, 24:5, etc.), which in symbolic language, or spiritual understanding, is also the church of God, the body of Christ Jesus (John 2:19; 1 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:21; 1 Peter 2:5, 4:17; 1 Corinthians 3:16,17, 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 3:12, 11:1,2, 21:22).

Was "King" David a priest of the line of Levi (Aaron)? No, for David was of Judah (Ruth 4:18-22; 1 Chronicles 2:4-8; 1 Chronicles 4:1; Matthew 1:3; Luke 3:31-33). However, Ahimelech the priest was of the Levite line, and though the bread of the presence was now to be replaced, and old, and to be eaten by Ahimelech and the priests (1 Samuel 22:11-21) present at the time as per the already mentioned scripture of Leviticus 24, Ahimelech showed mercy to "King" David and his men that were with him that were an hungered.

If Ahimelech could show mercy unto "King" David (watched & chased by his enemy that sought to kill him) and his men upon the sabbath day by allowing them to eat the old bread of the presence, even when it was "not lawful", how much more should the Pharisees have shown mercy upon the sabbath day to the real and greater "King" "David" (Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23,24, 37:24,25; Hosea 3:5; then also being sought to be killed by His enemy, the devil) and His men (the disciples) when it was lawful (according to Deuteronomy 23:25), instead of seeking means to destroy Him and them as Saul and Doeg did to the priests of old?

Jesus elsewhere had said:

Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Ahimelech was merciful, while Saul and Doeg were murderers, constantly watching (1 Samuel 19:11) for David to fail, or slip up, so that he might fall into their grasp to destroy him.

The Pharisees said that what the disciples of Jesus were doing was "not lawful" (Matthew 12:2; Mark 2:4; Luke 6:2), but this was without foundation from the scripture, an therefore all incorrect and merely based upon their man-made traditions, and their hatred of Jesus.

Jesus repeats the words, "not lawful" (Matthew 12:4; Mark 2:26; Luke 6:4) using an actual example of a "not lawful" action from the scripture, in contrast to the Pharisees own personal definition of "not lawful" (Matthew 12:2; Mark 2:4; Luke 6:2). By doing this, Jesus effectively cut off the accusation of sabbath-breaking, or transgression by the disciples, and showed that the Pharisees accusation would have condemned "King" David himself and moreso, their accusation and watching was not in harmony with what was actually written.

 

[Crosstian]

People who observe the Sabbath couldn't even enforce the Sabbath rule to kill the violator of the Sabbath.

Already addressed, please read - COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

You might also like this series:

 

[PruePhillip]

....

The Apostolic Church and its various imitators of the First Century
considered the Lord's Day to be the First Day of the Week. This is
historical. Sunday was the Christian Sabbath.

 

[MJFlores]

Hi MJ, your only repeating yourself here brother as this post has already been addressed in post # 25 linked. The scriptures provided in the linked post # 25 show your getting "ISRAEL" of the "OLD COVENANT" mixed up with God's ISRAEL in the "NEW COVENANT" I am happy to start a new thread about this and discuss this topic in detail if you like just let me know?

However brother it is simply a distraction from the OP here which is talking about COLOSSIANS 2:11-17. Did you have anything to share in relation to this OP?

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

Sorry....
@Crosstian just made me dizzy....

That happens to me when I see too many...

My position is Sabbath is no longer and should no longer be practiced because:
The Lord Jesus Christ broke it and declared himself as the Lord of the Sabbath
The apostles of Jesus also did not observe and broke the Sabbath

The people who are insisting that the Sabbath should be observed are the Pharisees
I believe they were the murderers of the Lord Jesus Christ
Why side with them?

John 9:16 New International Version (NIV)
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

 

[MJFlores]

You are taking the side of the accusation of the Pharisees who were negating God's commandment by their vain traditions according to the sinless Jesus? You are taking the side of 'the accuser of the brethren'? Do I understand your position correctly?

Let's look at Matthew 12 & Mark 2 & Luke 6 (though this thread is supposed to be about Colossians 2:16, and when that cannot be answered as we gave, everything, including the kitchen sink is throw in, and when those are addressed they circle back round to the beginning all over again as if nothing was given in the first place)

Priests cannot do anything they want. They cannot mow their grass on Sabbath [which has nothing to do with Temple service], but they could minister to the poor and sinner. They keep the Sabbath Holy, by doing the merciful [holy] work.

Jesus was not saying that the Priests were actually breaking God's Law. He was responding to pharisees about their misunderstanding of what it meant to break Sabbath. He was using their idea of 'violation', see verse 2.

Jesus said "guiltless", "... ye would not have condemned the guiltless." and that before he gave them their example [as he refers back to their original condemnation]. The pharisees had "condemned" based upon their tradition, not upon a Thus saith the LORD. Jesus then uses their definition of 'violation' and shows them from the scripture that their idea of violation is not actually transgression, thus absolutely innocent.

Christians are kings and priests, and thus they are to serve Christ Jesus continually, and to minister to the body of Christ Jesus, which is the temple of God on earth, and to shew mercy unto those without. To keep the common/profane labour to the days 1-6, and to keep the 7th day the Sabbath holy by doing no profane/common labour is obeying God and fulfilling the Sabbath of the LORD thy God. However, let us not forget that there is an endless holy work [John 5:17 KJB] that is never done and is in harmony with the Sabbath, and when such holy work is done, there is no violation of the Sabbath of the LORD, such are "guiltless". Honouring God in all things is the priority.

Mowing the grass on Sabbath is not holy work. It is profane/common work.

Helping someone who is sick by changing soiled sheets and cleaning the person on Sabbath is holy work. It is not profane/common work.

In obeying God in all His commands, there is no real violation, there are only the guiltless.

Neither Jesus, nor the disciples were actually transgressing God's Holy Law, but were only being accused by the Pharisees who were judging by their tradition.

Neither Jesus, nor the disciples were in any actual transgression or violation of God's law [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], for there is nothing in the holy commandment [2 Peter 2:21KJB] of the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God [Exodus 20:8-11 KJB] which states that it is a violation of the commandment to [1] walk in nature through a field, etc, or [2] to take handfulls of "corn" in a neighbour's field, [3] to eat that which was taken by hand, when not actually 'reaping" ["working" in the common [profane] manner, such as is done in daily [1-6] labour].

Jesus never sinned [Hebrews 4:15 KJB, etc], not in this instance, nor at any time. Jesus also never states in either the entire context of Matthew 12:1-8, or Mark 2:23-28 KJB, that the disciples themselves were sinning, or violating in any way the 4th commandment, but Jesus instead said that the disciples were "guiltless" [Matthew 12:7 KJB].

[1] Jesus and the disciples were out in nature, walking through the "corn" fields of a neighbour [Matthew 12:1; Mark 2:23 KJB]

[2] the disciples were hungry, and decided to 'graze' along the way in the walking [Matthew 12:1; Mark 2:23 KJB]

If Jesus broke the commandment:

That would be sin (1 John 3:4), which is exactly what the devil attributes to Jesus, even God.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Luk 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

This was within the Law of God, for provision was made for this very thing:

Deu 23:25 When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn.

Therefore, there is no violation on that sabbath day by either Jesus, or the disciples. At all. Period. It is without contestation. They were not reaping harvest, neither using a sickle (a work tool) to obtain the food required for sustaining life (which is in harmony with the Sabbath commandment, for example, see how many times Jesus healed upon the sabbath, to sustain and restore life), but merely gathered as much as needful with their own hands.

Now let us see who is the accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10) in this event, for the devil was among them, though unseen:

Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

Luk 6:2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

There were certain of the Pharisees which had been watching for anything that they might accuse Jesus of, and especially upon the sabbath, and since they could not find anything in His holiness, satan attempted to get to Jesus and accuse Him through the disciples.

The Pharisees had many man-made regulations (Matthew 15:3-9; Mark 7:6-13, even Paul warns of it, Colossians 2:8), that are not found sanctioned in the word of God, which contradicted the commandments of God. God's word in Deuteronomy 23:25 clearly gave the right unto the disciples to do what they did. This text, this law of God overrules (by order of the Throne of God) any man-made regulations such as the Pharisees had made. Even Jesus knew what the disciples were doing. If there were any sin (1 John 3:4) in it, Jesus Himself would have rebuked the disciples before all. Deuteronomy 23:25 is even valid on the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God, since one word or law of God (such as the spiritual law of the Sabbath, Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 7:14) does not violate or contradict any another word or law of God (being a civil law or statute; John 10:35). That regulation was given by God through Moses, and since God is all-knowing, God even knew in the days of Moses that this regulation would be challenged in this very moment (Isaiah 46:9-10) in the days of Jesus.

Did Jesus Christ and his disciples observe the Sabbath?
Wasn't he accused of by the Pharisees of breaking the Sabbath?
I rather read this from the Bible.

Matthew 12:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

Perhaps the Pharisees were referring to Exodus 16:29

Luke 6:7-11 New International Version (NIV)
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?”

He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus.

Perhaps the Pharisees were referring to Exodus 20:10

John 9:15-17 New International Version (NIV)
Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”

The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

Perhaps the Pharisees were referring to Exodus 20:10

Exodus 31:14 New International Version (NIV)
“‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people.

Perhaps the Pharisees saw how Jesus Christ worked on a Sabbath.
What did Jesus Christ say about these things?

John 5:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

I ask again:
Why side with the villains who was responsible for killing the Lord Jesus Christ?
Isn't it clear enough that Jesus Christ showed that the rules of the Sabbath is no longer in effect?

My Father is always at his work to this very day [Sabbath Day] and I too am working.

 

[1213]

...IS COLOSSIANS 2 SAYING THAT WE ARE NO LONGER TO KEEP GOD'S SABBATH?....

No, because it says only:

Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.
Colossians 2:16-17

 

[3rdAngel]

The Apostolic Church and its various imitators of the First Century considered the Lord's Day to be the First Day of the Week. This is
historical. Sunday was the Christian Sabbath.

Sunday worship or the claim to Sunday worship being "THE LORDS DAY" is only a man-made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God that is not biblical. There is no scripture for this tradition taught in the churches today and that is why this thread has been started and the questions are being asked; who are we following; God or man?

Many Churches today are teaching man made teachings that are not biblical and leading all away from God's Word. Jesus does not respect the practice of following man-made teachings and traditions over the Word of God and warns us against doing it. This is very plain to see in Matthew 15:3-9; John 4:23-24; 1 John 2:3-4; John 3:15-21; Matthew 7:22-26.

Sin is defined in God's Word as breaking anyone of God's 10 Commandments *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4 and Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 14:12; 22-14.

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that define what sin is when broken *James 2:10-11

According to God's Word all those who knowingly practice sin will not enter the kingdom of heave because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-39.

God has hjs people in every Church *John 10:16 and knows that his people have been led astray by these Churches and in times of ignorance God does not hold us accountable for sin but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow him *Acts 17:30-31. God is calling his people out from following man made teachings and traditions *Matthew 15:3-9 back to the pure Word of God *John 4:23-24; Revelation 18:1-4

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *John 10:26-27

 

[3rdAngel]

No, because it says only:

Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.
Colossians 2:16-17

Hello numbers nice to see you and welcome here

I can see you did not read the OP and the supporting scriptures provided in post # 6; posts # 7; posts # 8; posts # 9 and posts # 10 linked did you.

The OP states that many people pull up Colossians 2:16 in an attempt to cherry pick scripture without considering 1. THE CHAPTER CONTEXT; 2. THE WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONTEXT; 3. THE GREEK WORD MEANINGS OF THE WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONTEXT and 4. CONTEXT TO THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURE WITHIN ALL SCRIPTURE

They do this in order to argue Sunday (first day of the week) is the new Christian Sabbath instead of God's seventh day sabbath which is God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments.

Anyhow if you read these linked posts you will see that we are looking at the complete context from Colossians 2:11-17. They show that Gods 10 commandmetns are not the topic of conversation. The topic of conversation is the shadow laws in "ORDINACES" from the ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws of the Mosaic book of the old covenant.

I suggest you read post # 6; posts # 7; posts # 8; posts # 9 and posts # 10 linked from the OP as they prove that Colossians 2:11-17 is not talking about God's 10 Commandments but the shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the old covenant that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant and feast days.

According to God's Word in the new covenant God's LAW (10 commandments) gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. No one is under the law if they have repented and been forgiven of their sins. We are only "under the law" if we are guilty before God of breaking the law *Romans 3:19-20.

Please read the OP before commenting so you can have something to contribute. If you disagree with the linked posts above show us why you disagree? Surface readers are like sifting sand going no where and blown about with every wind of doctrine because they have no root in the Word of God. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear as it becomes our judge come judgment day *John 12:47-48

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word

 

[3rdAngel]

Did Jesus Christ and his disciples observe the Sabbath?
Wasn't he accused of by the Pharisees of breaking the Sabbath?
I rather read this from the Bible.

Matthew 12:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

Perhaps the Pharisees were referring to Exodus 16:29

Luke 6:7-11 New International Version (NIV)
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?”

He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus.

Perhaps the Pharisees were referring to Exodus 20:10

John 9:15-17 New International Version (NIV)
Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”

The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

Perhaps the Pharisees were referring to Exodus 20:10

Exodus 31:14 New International Version (NIV)
“‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people.

Perhaps the Pharisees saw how Jesus Christ worked on a Sabbath.
What did Jesus Christ say about these things?

John 5:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

I ask again:
Why side with the villains who was responsible for killing the Lord Jesus Christ?
Isn't it clear enough that Jesus Christ showed that the rules of the Sabbath is no longer in effect?

My Father is always at his work to this very day [Sabbath Day] and I too am working.

In the days of Jesus the religious teachers of the day had placed so many man made traditions around Sabbath keeping that it had become a burden to the people. It was though in their eyes MANKIND was made for the Sabbath. It was so bad in fact that these religious teachers were constantly looking for ways to accuse Jesus of breaking the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-2; 10; Mark 3:2'; Luke 6:1-2).

Jesus rebuked these religious teachers by saying that the Sabbath was made for MAN and NOT MAN for the SABBATH (Mark 2:27 and that he was the CREATOR or LORD of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) and it was LAWFUL to do GOOD on the SABBATH (Matt 12:12)

Jesus did God's WORK on the Sabbath and so should we everyday but God's WORK is not the work we are commanded NOT to do on God's Sabbath for it is lawful to do GOOD on the Sabbath.

Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them who were with him, but only for the priests?

Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT

Exodus 20:8-11 [8], Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day) [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

Doing GOD'S WORK is NOT what the 4th Commandment is talking about please read it.

God's 4th Commandments says we are NOT to do OUR OWN WORK. Yep NO secular business or paid work, no unnecessary domestic work, no buying and selling, shopping. This can be done on the other days of the week. God has made the SEVENTH DAY a HOLY DAY and we are to REST in HIM by FAITH in the LORD of the SABBATH. This is the 4th Commandment and one of the God's 10. JESUS was teaching that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12 and that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath *Mark 2:27. The Pharisees were teaching that man was made for the Sabbath and JESUS was not teaching us to break the SABBATH but how to keep it which was his custom * Luke 4:16.

.......................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.
.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

 

[3rdAngel]

Sorry....
@Crosstian just made me dizzy....

That happens to me when I see too many...

My position is Sabbath is no longer and should no longer be practiced because:
The Lord Jesus Christ broke it and declared himself as the Lord of the Sabbath
The apostles of Jesus also did not observe and broke the Sabbath

The people who are insisting that the Sabbath should be observed are the Pharisees
I believe they were the murderers of the Lord Jesus Christ
Why side with them?


John 9:16 New International Version (NIV)
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

Yet these are simply your words denying God's 4th commandment and are not God's Words but yours. The person you have responded on the other hand has only provided God's Word that are not his but God's and you disagree with it without showing why but say you have provided too many scriptures for me to read?

Should you not read the scriptures provided if it is God's Word before denying them with your own words? Only God's Word is true *Romans 3:4 and ignoring God's Word does not make it go away. When JESUS provided God's Word to the Jews they closed their eyes and ears to hearing God's Word and JESUS said to them "You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, this people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men *Matthew 15:7-9.

JESUS also says if we follow man made teachings and traditions over the Word of God we are not following God *Matthew 15:3-9. Who should we believe and follow; God or man *Romans 3:4; Acts 5:29? I choose the Word of God how about you?

God has his people in every Church *John 10:16 and knows that his people have been led astray by these Churches and in times of ignorance God does not hold us accountable for sin but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow him *Acts 17:30-31. God is calling his people out from following man made teachings and traditions *Matthew 15:3-9 back to the pure Word of God *John 4:23-24; Revelation 18:1-4

Now on top of all the above everything you have provided is off topic and has not addressed anything in the OP. Did you have something to share in relation to the scriptures provided in th OP that shows Colossians 2:16-17 is not talking about God's 4th commandment or anyone of God's 10 commandments?

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *John 10:26-27

 

[PruePhillip]

Sunday worship or the claim to Sunday worship being "THE LORDS DAY" is only a man-made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God that is not biblical. There is no scripture for this tradition taught in the churches today and that is why this thread has been started and the questions are being asked; who are we following; God or man?

We are following Jesus.
The Apostolic church and the churches which broke from it all treated Sunday
as Christ's Sabbath.
Yes, it's not spelled out, but it's a fact that Christians worshiped on Sunday.
They might have worshiped other days, but just one day was their Sabbath,
not two.
Slave of Christians in particular loved Sundays as for once they had time to
themselves.

There is no scripture stating the Apostolic church must not build churches,
but they understood what Jesus said about where God dwells and God does
not dwell.

There is no scripture which says the Apostolic church should hold to an
itinerant life-long mission but we read of about 150-170 such people in
Acts and the Epistles.

The New Testament is heavily premised upon this notion that if you ask
why then maybe you don't get it.

Here's an example
New International Version
As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, "Master, it is good for us
to be here. Let us put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one
for Elijah." (He did not know what he was saying.)

Yes, there's no scripture stating that Apostolic Christians must not built
tabernacles. Certainly Catholics had no compunction.

And that is why ALL Apostolic Christians treated Sunday as their Sabbath.

 

[3rdAngel]

We are following Jesus.
The Apostolic church and the churches which broke from it all treated Sunday
as Christ's Sabbath.
Yes, it's not spelled out, but it's a fact that Christians worshiped on Sunday.
They might have worshiped other days, but just one day was their Sabbath,
not two.
Slave of Christians in particular loved Sundays as for once they had time to
themselves.

There is no scripture stating the Apostolic church must not build churches,
but they understood what Jesus said about where God dwells and God does
not dwell.

There is no scripture which says the Apostolic church should hold to an
itinerant life-long mission but we read of about 150-170 such people in
Acts and the Epistles.

The New Testament is heavily premised upon this notion that if you ask
why then maybe you don't get it.

Here's an example
New International Version
As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, "Master, it is good for us
to be here. Let us put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one
for Elijah." (He did not know what he was saying.)

Yes, there's no scripture stating that Apostolic Christians must not built
tabernacles. Certainly Catholics had no compunction.

And that is why ALL Apostolic Christians treated Sunday as their Sabbath.

Can you see brother all your doing in your post here is promoting man made teachings and traditions that are not biblical over the Word of God? Anyhow this is not the topic of the OP which is on the real meaning of Colossians 2:11-17. It seems most people want to talk about anything else except the OP. If you would like to talk about man made teaching and traditions over the Word of God may I suggest you post in this thread here..

Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Did you have anything to share in relation to the OP here on Colossians 2:11-17 and did you read the OP here?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

God bless

 

[PruePhillip]

Can you see brother all your doing in your post here is promoting man made teachings and traditions that are not biblical over the Word of God? Anyhow this is not the topic of the OP which is on the real meaning of Colossians 2:11-17. It seems most people want to talk about anything else except the OP. If you would like to talk about man made teaching and traditions over the Word of God may I suggest you post in this thread here..

Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Did you have anything to share in relation to the OP here on Colossians 2:11-17 and did you read the OP here?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

God bless

I DID answer the OP, very carefully.
If you want to see "man made" religion look to the churches
of the Second Century.
Even in the First Century Peter and Paul had to warn people
about "observing days and months" (Holy days, not prohibited
but given no example by Jesus)
Do YOU observe "Easter" and "Christmas" ??

 

[3rdAngel]

I DID answer the OP, very carefully.
If you want to see "man made" religion look to the churches
of the Second Century.
Even in the First Century Peter and Paul had to warn people
about "observing days and months" (Holy days, not prohibited
but given no example by Jesus)
Do YOU observe "Easter" and "Christmas" ??

Actually no brother you did not answer the OP at all here. You did not read the OP here did you. The OP here is on the real meaning of Colossians 2:11-16.

You may be interested more in the other thread here...

Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Can I suggest if you want to discuss this OP you read the OP first and the scriptures provided in
post # 6; posts # 7; posts # 8; posts # 9 and posts # 10 linked that prove that Colossians 2:11-17 is not talking about God's 10 Commandments?

BTW your application of Galatians 4 is in error. Perhaps you may like to bring it up again in the linked thread above and I would be happy to share with you in the other thread linked above why it is in error.

If you can read the linked posts and scriptures that show why Colossians 2 is not talking about God's 10 commandments and if you disagree please state why and keep the thread on topic please.

God bless

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

<ignore-list>

just tiresome​

</ignore-list>

 

[PruePhillip]

Actually no brother you did not answer the OP at all here. You did not read the OP here did you. The OP here is on the real meaning of Colossians 2:11-16.

You may be interested more in the other thread here...

Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Can I suggest if you want to discuss this OP you read the OP first and the scriptures provided in
post # 6; posts # 7; posts # 8; posts # 9 and posts # 10 linked that prove that Colossians 2:11-17 is not talking about God's 10 Commandments?

BTW your application of Galatians 4 is in error. Perhaps you may like to bring it up again in the linked thread above and I would be happy to share with you in the other thread linked above why it is in error.

If you can read the linked posts and scriptures that show why Colossians 2 is not talking about God's 10 commandments and if you disagree please state why and keep the thread on topic please.

God bless

Actually, it's YOU who hasn't answered many questions. The biggest one being
why did a church, moved by the spirit of God, honoring the example of Jesus,
consider the old Jewish Sabbath as no longer their holy day?

This....

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?
2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?
3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?
4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?
5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?
6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?
7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?
8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?
9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?
10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?
11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?
12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?
13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?
14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?
15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?
16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?
17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?
18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?
19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?
21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?
22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?
23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?
25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?
27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

I have covered the following points -

"Where does it say" ... that we should not build tabernacles?
"Where does it say" ... that we should not have holy days?
"Where does it say" ... that we should not worship in Christian temples?
"Where does it say" ... that we should not have a great high priest other than Jesus?
"Where does it say" ... that we should have an itinerant ministry?
"Where does it say" ... that the church of God has no name?
"Where does it say" ... that we should not continue to kill the male lamb?
"Where does it say" ... that we don't continue with the Passover?
"Where does it say" ... that we should not serve at a physical altar?

(Actually, that last one is covered in Hebrews - he that serves at a physical sanctuary
or altar has no right to come into the presence of God.)

So, "where does it say we shouldn't treat Sunday as the Sabbath" is in this same
category. The NT is not like the OT where everything was spelled out. Jesus gently
led His people.

 

[Deeje]

We are now approaching the close of the 6th day and the beginning of the 7th, which is the great Sabbath, “The Day of The Lord” the seventh period of one thousand years from the day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930, which day begins after the greatest period of tribulation that this world has ever seen.

Wait a minute.....how can it still be the 6th day when God already concluded it? The 6th day is finished with an expression of God's satisfaction with all that was accomplished, and that included the creation of man and God's instructions for them......the 7th day is still progressing....God rested only from his creative works....the 7th day was to test drive free will and iron out any and all the 'bugs' related to the use or abuse of free will, before taking us back to Eden.

This coming period of tribulation is said to be so severe, that if it were not for the intervention of the Lord, no flesh would survive. We are almost at the close of the sixth day, and soon comes the great tribulation, which is the war to end all wars, after which the Sabbath will dawn, but when? Nobody knows the exact date.

The thousand year reign of Christ is the concluding part of the 7th day....only when God's original purpose has been achieved, will God conclude the 7th day like he concluded the 6th......everything will again be declared.... "very good".

The tribulation foretold for this world will see a cleansing of this earth like it was in the days of Noah.....(Matthew 24:37-39) where a few "souls" survived that catastrophic event to enter into a cleaned earth. That was only a stop-gap measure back then to get God's purpose back on track.....the tribulation that is coming will see a permanent solution to all of earth's troubles.

 

[MJFlores]

Yet these are simply your words denying God's 4th commandment and are not God's Words but yours. The person you have responded on the other hand has only provided God's Word that are not his but God's and you disagree with it without showing why but say you have provided too many scriptures for me to read?

It would be better to

on one or three verse
than send of too many verses
when most of it are just duds

Should you not read the scriptures provided if it is God's Word before denying them with your own words? Only God's Word is true *Romans 3:4 and ignoring God's Word does not make it go away. When JESUS provided God's Word to the Jews they closed their eyes and ears to hearing God's Word and JESUS said to them "You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, this people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men *Matthew 15:7-9.

Isn't it true that the Lord God already made the new covenant as he promised in Jeremiah 31:31?
And isn't it true that the Lord Jesus is the one mediating this new covenant? Hebrews 9:15
Isn't this new covenant different from the old one?

Now if the Sabbath day is continued to be enforced by men when God already stopped it, isn't that the teaching of men?

Isaiah 1:13 New International Version (NIV)
Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.

Hosea 2:11 New International Version (NIV)
I will stop all her celebrations:
her yearly festivals, her New Moons,
her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals.

JESUS also says if we follow man made teachings and traditions over the Word of God we are not following God *Matthew 15:3-9. Who should we believe and follow; God or man *Romans 3:4; Acts 5:29? I choose the Word of God how about you?

God has his people in every Church *John 10:16 and knows that his people have been led astray by these Churches and in times of ignorance God does not hold us accountable for sin but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow him *Acts 17:30-31. God is calling his people out from following man made teachings and traditions *Matthew 15:3-9 back to the pure Word of God *John 4:23-24; Revelation 18:1-4

Have you seen other churches?
Have you seen how their unscriptural worship of the Almighty?
And did Jesus really established different churches with different beliefs?
Or is there just one church?
"God has his people in every Church?"

Deuteronomy 32:20 New International Version (NIV)
“I will hide my face from them,” he said,
“and see what their end will be;
for they are a perverse generation,
children who are unfaithful.

Now on top of all the above everything you have provided is off topic and has not addressed anything in the OP. Did you have something to share in relation to the scriptures provided in th OP that shows Colossians 2:16-17 is not talking about God's 4th commandment or anyone of God's 10 commandments?

I have spoken my piece
The Sabbath is for Israelites only - who and their ancestors was taken out from Egypt
I have never been to Egypt and neither was my ancestors were Egyptian slaves

Exodus 20:1-2, 8 New International Version (NIV)
And God spoke all these words:

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *John 10:26-27

That is the thing. Have you heard what Jesus done to the Sabbath?
He worked on Sabbath day.

John 5:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

I hear him, alright. How about you?

 

[3rdAngel]

It would be better to on one or three verse
than send of too many verses when most of it are just duds.

How can you say that most of the scriptures provided are duds when you did not read them and you cannot prove from the scriptures provided that they are when you have never checked them? To me it seems you are only trying to avoid God's Word in order to support man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God that are taught be many Churches that dishonor JESUS *Matthew 15:3-9. Ignoring God's Word by posting pretty pictures does not support what you are saying when only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it brother just the same as ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

more to come...