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Collateral Murder

dust1n

Zindīq
But are you meaning to imply that these civilian deaths are at the hands of US and coalition soldiers for the most part? Wow, I think you're leaving out some very pertinent facts - that the Iraqi and Afghan MILITANTS and warring factions are constantly blowing civilians up in suicide bombings and open warfare. (Not only that, they've been at each other for thousands of years.)

(...snip...)

The entire Middle East doesn't hate us, by the way, though radical Muslims throughout the world DO hate the US. Many Israelis, Egyptians, Lebanese, and Jordanians support our military presence in their very unsettled and violent region. And - so do many Iraqis for that matter.
Ok - then let me be more specific.

First:

Afghanistan demographics:

0–14 years: 44.5% (male 7,664,670; female 7,300,446)
15–64 years: 53% (male 9,147,846; female 8,679,800)
65 years and over: 2.4% (male 394,572; female 422,603) (2009 est.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Afghanistan

Iraq demographics:

0-14 years:
39.7% (male 5,398,645; female 5,231,760)
15-64 years:
57.3% (male 7,776,257; female 7,576,726)
65 years and over:
3% (male 376,700; female 423,295) (2006 est.)

Demographics of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are mostly bombing countries where the age of kids 0-14 makes up 40 percent of the population. Keep that in mind.

Also; this is just 2001.

On October 9th, the Pakistan Observer [Islamabad] daily newspaper reported on the first night, "37 Killed, 81 Injured in Sunday's Strikes."9 The casualties spanned four provinces : Kabul [20], Herat [9], Kandahar [4] and Jalalabad [4]. By October 10th, The Guardian reported 76 dead civilians.10 And by October 15th, the leading Indian daily, The Times of India was mentioning over 300 civilian casualties and that the US-UK bombing action was in violation of Article 51 of the United Nations Charter allowing the use of force in self-defense.11 On the following day [October 16th], the alternative U.S. media noted that during the first week of bombing, 400 Afghan civilians had been slaughtered.12

...

Fleeing the intense bombing in Kandahar, Mehmood, a Kandahar merchant, brought his family to his ancestral village of Chowkar-Karez, a village 25 miles north of Kandahar. His extended family, crowded into six cars, arrived at a village just about when it was attacked by U.S. warplanes in the night of October 22/23rd. Ironically, the cars arriving in the night may have prompted the raid -- as the Pentagon labels "a target of opportunity." Said Mehmood, "I brought my family here for safety, and now there are 19 dead, including my wife, my brother, sister, sister-in-law, nieces, nephews, my uncle. What am I supposed to do now?"15


cont...
 

dust1n

Zindīq
At 4:30 p.m. on Saturday, October 27th, a U.S. bomb and missile fired from a Navy F/A 18 hit the village of Khan Agaha at the entrance of the Kapisa Valley, some 80 kms northeast of Kabul. The U.S. planes dropped 35 bombs in the area. Ten civilians were reportedly instantly killed said an ambulance driver who had gone to the village. A nearby hospital to which victims were rushed, run by the Italian relief agency, Emergency, said up to 16 people had been killed in Saturday's attack on Khan Agaha.16 Television photos taken by Britain's Sky News showed footage of the F-18 dropping bombs, hitting a mud and timber family home. The TV report said ten members of a family were missing under the rubble and another twenty were injured. A five year-old girl lay in a wheelbarrow with a bloodied face.17

...

The Afghan town of Charikar, 60 kms north of Kabul, has been the recipient of many US bombs and missiles. On Saturday, November 17th, US bombs killed two entire families -- one of 16 members and the other of 14 -- perished, together in the same house.19


On the same day, bomb strikes in Khanabad near Kunduz, killed 100 people. A refugee, Mohammed Rasul, recounts himself burying 11 people, pulled out of ruins there [ibid].

...

Afghanistan has been subjected to a barbarous air bombardment which has killed an average of 41 - 47 civilians per day since that fateful evening of Sunday, October 7th. When the sun set on December 10th, at least 2,700 - 3,000 Afghan civilians had died in U.S bombing attacks [roughly equivalent to about 30,000 U.S. civilian or the equivalent of eleven World Trade Center attacks]. Detailed day-by-day data is presented in Appendix 4.

...

During the first three weeks [October 7-30th], U.S. bombing focused upon the cities and Taliban infrastructure, inflicting heavy civilian casualties, as a means of splitting the Taliban leadership. When this failed and a growing anti-war movement began gathering worldwide, the United States resorted to its tried old carpet-bombing of troops and countryside with its blunderbusses of the skies, the B-52 bomber.72 This was also necessary as the ground forces of the so-called Northern Alliance showed themselves unwilling to engage the Taliban on the ground. It had the fortunate political side-effect of putting civilian casualties further away from the public gaze, compared to the previous bombing of "military targets" in urban areas. On October 31st, B-52's began with the carpet-bombing of Bagram and Mazar-i-Sharif front-line areas -- "a B-52 bomber made its debut in the war, sending up a wall of orange flame and clouds of dust along Taliban positions overlooking opposition-held Bagram airbase north of Kabul."73 The front-line, however, weaves its way through the typical Afghan mud hut villages where civilians continued living. On November 4th, the U.S. upped the ante and dropped two BLU-82 sub-atomic bombs [equivalent to a tactical nuclear weapon] on Taliban positions in northern Afghanistan.74 The bombs destroy everything in a 600 yard radius, giving off a mushroom-like cloud, and has an-nerving effect upon the targeted troops. On November 23rd -- a week into Ramadan -- a third BLU-82 was dropped just south of Kandahar. A fourth was dropped in the Tora Bora campaign.

...

The seven single bombing attacks -- "seven days of ignominy" -- causing the greatest civilian deaths occurred on October 11, 18, 21, 23 and November 10 and 18th and December 1st .The U.S. strikes hit four small farming villages, a city, a hospital and a mosque, and the central marketplace in the Taliban stronghold, Kandahar.

  • October 11th - the farming village of 450 persons of Karam, west of Jalalabad in Nangarhar province is repeatedly bombed, 45 of the 60 mud houses destroyed, killing at least 160 civilians.77 Ms. Tur Bakai, who survived the attack, but all of whose children died in the attack, said, her voice barely audible, "I was asleep. I heard the prayers and suddenly it started. I didn't know what it was. I was so scared…"78 ;
  • October 18th - the central market place, Sarai Shamali in the Madad district of Kandahar is bombed, killing 47 civilians;79
  • October 21st - a cluster bomb falls on the military hospital and mosque in Herat, killing possibly 100 though I have recorded only 11;80
  • October 23rd - in the early a.m. hours, low-flying AC-130 gunships repeatedly strafe the farming villages of Bori Chokar and Chowkar-Karez [Chakoor Kariz], 25 miles north of Kandahar, killing 93 civilians;81
  • November 10th the villages of Shah Aqa and a neighboring sidling, in the poppy-growing Khakrez district, 70 kilometers northwest of Kandahar are bombed, resulting in possibly over 300 civilian casualties [though I have only recorded 125]82
  • November 18th - carpet-bombing by B-52's of frontline village near Khanabad, province of Kunduz, kills at least 100 civilians.83
http://cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

In a population of 45 percent children under 15.. who do you think died in all these civilian causalities?


I would also like to point out your '15000' terrorist attacks are irrelevant. That's all Islamic terrorism, and we are not at war with Islam. We are at war with Afghanistan and Iraq (mostly Afghanistan again), not to mention drone attacking Pakistan.

In a country were the actual enemy comprises less than .001% of the total population, who do you thinks dies everyday in Afghanistan. Do you think we are actually hitting our 'enemies'.

Or are we just hitting children.. day.. after day.. after day..

And paying 30 million dollars a day, after day.. after day..
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Surely you don't want to open this can of worms, do you?

blackwater-agents-hanging-from-bridge.jpg

American contractors murdered, burned and hung from a bridge by Iraqis

By the way, those contractors worked for Blackwater USA. Private military.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
We are mostly bombing countries where the age of kids 0-14 makes up 40 percent of the population. Keep that in mind.

Maybe the militants who live in these countries should keep that in mind the next time they strap a bomb onto a 19 year old and send him off to hang out with 70 virgins.

You are simply ignoring the fact that the vast majority of civilians killed in these countries are killed by their own citizens.
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
and thats ok then?

Well, it may not be "ok" to kill innocent people, I hardly call the Blackwater folks "Innocent". The media doesn't like to call them what they really are, Mercenaries, so instead we are told they are just 'contractors'. As if they were doing construction work or something. HA!

BTW, the OP video, I did not watch but I have no doubt it was a purposeful attack on journalists. They may have claimed to have been ignorant there were civilians down there, but I would bet they knew they were attacking Iraqi journalists.

Guess they haven't figured out yet, the internet is making coverups a bit more difficult now.:angel2:
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
EXACTLY. You can't have it both ways, you can't say our first priority is to protect our soldier's lives BUT we're also going to send them to Iraq and Afghanistan, thus risking their lives, and civilian lives are secondary. If we care more about our soldier's lives than civilian lives, then we should withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan. OTOH, if we care about civilian lives, and that is the reason our forces are in those countries, then we should have rules of engagement which protect civilian lives.
There's more to consider than just lives. In fact, the whole idea of "just war" is predicated on the idea that there is a cause for the conflict that's even more important than the lives that will be lost.

Of course, it's the responsibility of those who send soldiers into combat (and I include the electorate in this) to ensure that soldiers are only committed where the cause they're fighting for is worth more than their lives.

More civilians killed by Iraqis
The deaths at the World Trade Center on September 11 were "civilians killed by Iraqis"?

The entire Middle East doesn't hate us, by the way, though radical Muslims throughout the world DO hate the US. Many Israelis, Egyptians, Lebanese, and Jordanians support our military presence in their very unsettled and violent region. And - so do many Iraqis for that matter.
I'm glad you put this at the end. Otherwise I would've said you were committing a category error.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Well, it may not be "ok" to kill innocent people, I hardly call the Blackwater folks "Innocent". The media doesn't like to call them what they really are, Mercenaries, so instead we are told they are just 'contractors'. As if they were doing construction work or something. HA!
so thats ok then?

BTW, the OP video,
I did not watch
but I have no doubt it was a purposeful attack on journalists. They may have claimed to have been ignorant there were civilians down there, but I would bet they knew they were attacking Iraqi journalists.

then how can you possibly comment?and more than that draw conclusions to something you havnt even watched?
Guess they haven't figured out yet, the internet is making coverups a bit more difficult now.:angel2:

Its also a godsend to those with an agenda and a utube clip ,whoever they are
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Maybe the militants who live in these countries should keep that in mind the next time they strap a bomb onto a 19 year old and send him off to hang out with 70 virgins.

You are simply ignoring the fact that the vast majority of civilians killed in these countries are killed by their own citizens.

Actually, the majority of the people in these countries are killed by disease, and the rate increases the more and more we bomb their hospitals.


November 17th, massive carpet-bombing of Khanabad in Kunduz province, killed over 150 civilians.34 As has been amply commented upon elsewhere, the widespread bombing has also stopped truck traffic [carrying supplies] and has contributed to the utter collapse of Afghanistan's hospital system in the heavily bombed areas like Kandahar [as staff fear going to work].35 No account is taken here either of bombing causing indirect casualties [e.g., from lack of water, power, medical care, etc.]. The Afghan hospital system had collapsed by late October under the bombing onslaught as hospital staff fled for safety.36 Those wounded able to, head off to clinics in Pakistan, while "those too wounded or poor to make the journey have been left to die in their homes in Kandahar" [ibid]. In Kabul's 300 bed children's hospital, supplies ran out and most of the staff fled.37

...

During the couple weeks since November 25th , numerous first-hand reports tell how hovering U.S aircraft seeking out "targets of opportunity" in the Kandahar region, have fired missiles and dropped bombs upon fleeing taxis, trucks, and buses.55 A 39 year old, Afghan refugee in a Quetta hospital, Rukia, who lost her family of five children on December 3rd when a U.S bomb was dropped upon her neighborhood in Kandahar, tells a typical story. She fled Kandahar before she could bury her children, as she was wounded in her stomach and had her left arm shattered in the bomb blast. She was nearly bombed again on the Kandahar to Spin Boldak highway, as a relative was driving her to a hospital in Quetta. Rukia said,
"They're bombing anything that moves. It's not true that they bomb civilians by accident. They're targeting the innocent people instead of Osama bin Laden." [emphasis added by M.H., ibid].​
On December 4th, an ambulance in Kandahar was struck killing four. On December 2nd, a jeep carrying civilians was hit near Spin Boldak killing 15. On December 1st, Reuters [12/1/01] reported a U.S attack on four trucks and 5 buses on the highway to Spin Boldak, killing 30. Dawn [12/2/01] cited the incineration by air of three refugee vehicles in front of the Maji Hotel in Arghisan on December 1st. On November 30th, U.S planes bombed two trucks on the highway from Herat, killing at least four. On November 27th, attracted by the lights of a vehicle, U.S bombers hit a hamlet of five houses between Kandahar airport and the city, killing Mohammed Khan's entire family of 5 and 10 others.56 Mohammed Khan also fled to Chaman for hospital treatment for his arms and legs.57 On December 6th, a Pakistani truck carrying fresh fruits was attacked by U.S planes on the highway between Spin Boldak and Kandahar.58


...


The U.S bombing campaign has also directly targeted certain civilian facilities deemed hostile to its war success. On October 15th, U.S bombs destroyed Kabul's main telephone exchange, killing 12.62 In late October, U.S warplanes bombed the electrical grid in Kandahar knocking out all power, but the Talian were able to divert some electricity to the city from a generating plant in another province, Helmand, but that generation plant [at Kajakai dam] was then bombed knocking out all power supplies to Kandahar and Lashkargah.63 On October 31st, it launched seven air strikes against Afghanistan's largest hydro-electric power station adjacent to the huge Kajakai dam, 90 kilometers northwest of Kandahar, raising fears about the dam breaking.64 On November 12th, a guided bomb scored a direct hit on the Kabul office of the Al Jazeera news agency, which had been reporting from Afghanistan in a manner deemed hostile by Washington.65On November 18th, U.S warplanes bombed religious schools [Madrasas] in the Khost and Shamshad areas. U.S bombers have singled out trucks carrying fuel oil into Afghanistan from Iran, through Herat onto Kandahar and up to Kabul.66 Before the U.S bombing campaign started about 30 fuel trucks a day arrived in Kabul. But since a tanker convoy was struck on the road between Herat and Kandahar on October 22nd [my data], only five tankers at most arrived in Kabul. Private businessmen almoststopped bringing fuel picked up at the Iranian border town of Islam Qila, 30 miles west of Herat. Fuel convoys and fuel depots became favored targets for U.S jets. An eyewitness reports that a truck carrying cooking oil to towns north west of Kandahar had broken down on October 16th, and its three drivers slept in the truck. At 4 a.m. on October 17th , the truck was hit by a cruise missile. The three bodies were brought to the Kandahar hospital.67




And spreading landmines throughout the nation.. still working within 2001 only;


Sunday, November 25th, Kalakan village. A farmer returns to his village in the evening and is killed as he walks on one of the CBU-87's 202 bomblets. Tuesday, November 27th, village of Qala Shater near Herat, a 12yr. Old boy picks up the bright yellow soda-can sized bomblet, loses his arm.



The CBU-87, 1,000 lb. bomb was developed by the Aerojet General Corp. in 1983, which produced it along with the Alliant Techsystems Inc. [Hopkins, Minn.]. Today, the CBU-87s are assembled in an Army factory in southern Kansas, from parts supplied by Honeywell [Minn.] and Aerojet [Sacramento].


The 'mother bomb' carries 202 bright yellow bomblets [each the size of a soda can]. The mother bomb explodes about 300-400 feet above earth and the 202 bomblets are dispersed with little parachutes. They aresupposed to explode upon landing, but at least 5% do not. The CBU-87's 'footprint' is about 400x800 feet. One CBU-87 spreads bomblets over about three football fields. One B1-B 'Lancer' bomber can carry 30 CBU-87 bombs.88


To date [November 30th ] the US bombers have dropped about 600 CBU-87s upon Afghanistan. Assuming a dud rate of 12% , 89doing the arithmetic, this means there are about 14,500 unexploded bomblets littering the Afghan countrside and villages……akin to landmines.


Civilian Victims of United States' Aerial Bombing of Afghanistan





By the way.. all of those 17's who are strapping themselves are illiterate. Maybe if they had a chance to go to school and learn to read.


Suffering and poverty is the soil from where terrorism grows.
 

kai

ragamuffin
It would be equivalent to hanging and burning a solider.

blackwater-1.jpg
and thats ok tearing them limb from limb burning them and hanging their remains in public is ok? why exactly?
I find it interesting that people find that ok. no outrage, the accusation of US soldiers making "foreigners" less than human so easier to kill seems to work in reverse on this thread. It seems to some that the public dismembering and display of charred remains of those men was ok , why? because they are americans? because there blackwater? come come people you cant condemn the actions of one while seemingly condoning another that's making you look partisan.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
and thats ok tearing them limb from limb burning them and hanging their remains in public is ok? why exactly?
I find it interesting that people find that ok. no outrage, the accusation of US soldiers making "foreigners" less than human so easier to kill seems to work in reverse on this thread. It seems to some that the public dismembering and display of charred remains of those men was ok , why? because they are americans? because there blackwater? come come people you cant condemn the actions of one while seemingly condoning another that's making you look partisan.

It's a pretty hideous act. But to depict those men as 'contractors' is not really an accurate term. If they would not have been their to act like PCM's, it would have never happened to them. When America steps on Afghanistan face for 50 years, you expect less from an impoverished, occupied, and illiterate crowd?
 

kai

ragamuffin
It's a pretty hideous act. But to depict those men as 'contractors' is not really an accurate term. If they would not have been their to act like PCM's, it would have never happened to them. When America steps on Afghanistan face for 50 years, you expect less from an impoverished, occupied, and illiterate crowd?

does it matter what they are? ,soldiers ,contractors , Americans, Iraqis? whats Afghanistan got to do with it?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
does it matter what they are? ,soldiers ,contractors , Americans, Iraqis? whats Afghanistan got to do with it?

You are so passionate about regarding the innocent as a terrible tragedy; I agree, it is.

So why is not the bombing of civilians, or shooting civilians not the same tragedy.

Both are a certain are within a certain context; that certain context being one that we instigated.

If you saw people getting bombed all of the time in your country, wouldn't you be a little insensitive to the perceived 'people' who are doing it?
 

kai

ragamuffin
You are so passionate about regarding the innocent as a terrible tragedy; I agree, it is.
good
So why is not the bombing of civilians, or shooting civilians not the same tragedy.
who said it wasnt?
Both are a certain are within a certain context; that certain context being one that we instigated.
who is we?

If you saw people getting bombed all of the time in your country, wouldn't you be a little insensitive to the perceived 'people' who are doing it?

yes but whats your excuse? what i see here is an insensitivity from some who are not directly involved concerning the killing of Americans.
 
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