Collateral Murder

[Bismillah]

The point of this debate has long diverged from its original purpose and it is my view that nothing new will be gleaned of it. It has come to represent, in my mind, the renewal of decades long oppression of the Iraqi people at the hands of an indifferent and often times brutal U.S government with the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Like it or not, the blood of all these innocents stains the hands of every American politician and American who does not speak out against the treatment of these people.

 

[dmgdnooc]

Wait, so you are telling me that you are basing your whole argument on an arbitrary comment in an article written for security of Europe?
Seriously?
Hells bells, there is absolutely nothing in the article about how or where they got their number.

It is nothing more than a side comment to help bolster the urgency of security.

Surely you have not based your entire emotional rant on that one single off hand comment?

I referred you to the document that enunciates the European Union's approved security strategy, and expected you to be able to google from there. Fail, eh?
　
It is not 'an article' or 'single off-hand comment', it is the EU's highest level policy document and was drafted under the responsibility of Javier Solana. It has been approved by the European Parliament as the base on which the EU's security measures are founded.
That is why I styled it as a 'reputable source'.
　
You could also have googled and found many estimates of the ratio of civilian casualties in the conflict in Iraq. You would have found many published figures from various other reputable sources that put the figure between 60 and 80 percent. And if you had read them you would have found that they are estimates of the casualties in the 'shooting' war.
　
However I confidently apply the 90% figure to the overall conflict on the basis of the additional (and only civilian) casualties of the sanctions campaign.
　
I can see now that you need to be carefully spoon-fed and led by the hand.
My apologies for over-estimating you.

 

[McBell]

I referred you to the document that enunciates the European Union's approved security strategy, and expected you to be able to google from there. Fail, eh?

Fail?
I am not going to do your homework.
So if there is a fail here, it will be yours.
For not dong your own homework.
　

It is not 'an article' or 'single off-hand comment', it is the EU's highest level policy document and was drafted under the responsibility of Javier Solana. It has been approved by the European Parliament as the base on which the EU's security measures are founded.
That is why I styled it as a 'reputable source'.

It is nothing more than a second hand comment made out of the blue in a sad attempt to help bolster the point of the articles main goal.

Now if that is something you consider a reputable source....
　

You could also have googled and found many estimates of the ratio of civilian casualties in the conflict in Iraq. You would have found many published figures from various other reputable sources that put the figure between 60 and 80 percent. And if you had read them you would have found that they are estimates of the casualties in the 'shooting' war.
　
However I confidently apply the 90% figure to the overall conflict on the basis of the additional (and only civilian) casualties of the sanctions campaign.
　
I can see now that you need to be carefully spoon-fed and led by the hand.
My apologies for over-estimating you.

I can see that you are merely going to make unsubstantiated claims and then claim that it is every one else who is responsible for doing your homework.

Your sad attempt at childish insult is rather comical, but it does nothing to help your credibility.

Now since it is obvious that your sources are extremely questionable at best and just flat out ratification at worst, I shall leave you to fly back to your flock claiming victory.

 

[kai]

The point of this debate has long diverged from its original purpose and it is my view that nothing new will be gleaned of it. It has come to represent, in my mind, the renewal of decades long oppression of the Iraqi people at the hands of an indifferent and often times brutal U.S government with the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Like it or not, the blood of all these innocents stains the hands of every American politician and American who does not speak out against the treatment of these people.

Except that the US government doesn't rule Iraq, Iraqis do US withdrawal is taking place, and everyone should be aware if not actually speaking out, of the horrendous difficulties the Iraqis have to face on a daily basis in that country

 

[MSI64]

The Iraq War documents leak is the unsanctioned disclosure of a collection of 391,832 United States Army field reports, also called the Iraq War Logs, of the Iraq War from 2004 to 2009 to several international media organizations and published on the Internet by WikiLeaks on 22 October 2010. The files record 66,081 civilian deaths out of 109,000 recorded deaths.


The Iraq Body Count project (IBC) figure of 94,902 — 103,549 civilian deaths reported in English-language media (including Arabic media translated into English) up to December 2009 includes civilian deaths due to coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence.

the figures vary wildly and cannot be verified properly.

 

[Dezzie]

I watched it. Infuriating. Makes me wish I believed in hell so I could be reassured that the entire US military will be going there to roast for all eternity.

Well this comment is a little much don't you think? I would hope you don't mean EVERY person in the US Military... I am in the US Military and I would never act the way these people supposedly did in this video... I certainly do not deserve to "roast" in Hell, as you yourself has put it.

If, on the other hand, you think war is actually about teams of armed men fighting one another for noble causes, you do need to watch this. It'll help rectify your ignorance.

I agree with this statement.

I didn't actually watch the video because I am at work. I can't watch it here since youtube is blocked, but it sounds completely horrifying... I don't know if I want to watch it either...

 

[dallas1125]

I didn't actually watch the video because I am at work. I can't watch it here since youtube is blocked, but it sounds completely horrifying... I don't know if I want to watch it either...

Its a bigger deal than it should be. It was a tragic incident but it was blown way out of proportion, just like the ground zero mosque. I highly recommend the unedited version too.

 

[Bismillah]

Except that the US government doesn't rule Iraq, Iraqis do US withdrawal is taking place, and everyone should be aware if not actually speaking out, of the horrendous difficulties the Iraqis have to face on a daily basis in that country

That doesn't mean anything in the end game does it kai? Innocents still died for nothing more than warmongering and any attempts to go "look look democracy" does not detract from their suffering and continual suffering.

MS164: The reason body counts are so vague is because the U.S government decided not to tally up the Iraqi dead for public use.

 

[kai]

That doesn't mean anything in the end game does it kai? Innocents still died for nothing more than warmongering and any attempts to go "look look democracy" does not detract from their suffering and continual suffering.

What is the end game for the insurgency Abibi ? The continuing murder of Iraqis by Iraqis doesn't detract from the suffering of the Iraqis and doesnt bode well for the future
MS164: The reason body counts are so vague is because the U.S government decided not to tally up the Iraqi dead for public use.

Last year over 1000 policemen were killed 2,635 people were killed in bombings averaging 2 a day which counted for 66 % of all civilian deaths, there were 113 civilian deaths by US/Iraqi forces.

and some sources quote that as the lowest since the invasion.

i think its obvious what Iraqis are dealing with here is a systematic killing brought on by their brothers and sisters in the ummah executing and blowing to pieces their own people for quasi political reasons.

Civilian deaths from violence in 2010 :: Iraq Body Count

the US does tally up the Iraqi dead just as various other sources do. what amazes me is the lack of realisation or acceptance of how many Muslims in Iraq are killed by fellow Muslims.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I read the fist pages of the thread and what I noticed was a bit strange :

In the beginning everyone was against the video, shouting against it etc .. And at the very first moment a Muslim came and said , yea US soldiers suck, everyone turned against him !!

It remind me of a golden rule which is adressed to Muslims but Non-Muslims could try to use it too : Quran ( 4 : 135)

135. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do.

I have to say that objectivity is a real lacking trait in this thread, no offense meant

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I read the fist pages of the thread and what I noticed was a bit strange :

In the beginning everyone was against the video, shouting against it etc .. And at the very first moment a Muslim came and said , yea US soldiers suck, everyone turned against him !!

It remind me of a golden rule which is adressed to Muslims but Non-Muslims could try to use it too : Quran ( 4 : 135)

135. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do.

I have to say that objectivity is a real lacking trait in this thread, no offense meant

I honestly have not noticed that happening in this thread. However I agree with your point, and that's an excellent teaching from the Quran.

The people who were criticizing the video in the beginning of the thread, like me, probably feel the discussion has been exhausted. No use repeating ourselves. kai was always essentially defending the military from the beginning. And I told Abibi I agree with him on many of his points.

 

[kai]

I read the fist pages of the thread and what I noticed was a bit strange :

In the beginning everyone was against the video, shouting against it etc .. And at the very first moment a Muslim came and said , yea US soldiers suck, everyone turned against him !!

It remind me of a golden rule which is adressed to Muslims but Non-Muslims could try to use it too : Quran ( 4 : 135)

135. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do.

I have to say that objectivity is a real lacking trait in this thread, no offense meant

Ok i was not really defending the military as defending military men trying to get the context of the event into the discussion as the OP refrenced an edited and annotated version of the tape.

The discussion progressed somewhat and i and others introduced more and more evidence as we found it. and we argued and discussed different points in a what i thought was generally a sound manner and i would do so again as i beleive that the tape was used for a political point.

Justice doesnt come from jumping to conclusions it comes from weighing up the evidence.

Some people like Mr Spinkles came to different conclusions than mine after wieghing up lots of evidence other than the Tape in the OP.

Others didnt bother to do so and i dont really recall arguing against the opinion of a poster just because they were Muslim.

a heck of a lot of my discussion was with people like Mr Spinkles whos opinions i value a lot even if they differ from mine.


a statement along the lines of "Yeah US soldiers suck!" is infantile and doesn't do justice to a serious discussion over a tragic event.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

The sentence " Yeah Us soldiers suck" I used was just there to mean that a Muslim showed his disapproval and frustration, I dont recall exactly what he said.

As for you kai, then what Ive said wasnt adressed to you, you showed your disagreement to people posts before the brother spoke , others changed their view after it.

Anyway , my post wasnt meant to speak about someone specifically , it was just a call for objectivity before posts get derived by emotions or nationalism or loyalty to the patry or anything close to this.

 

[kai]

The sentence " Yeah Us soldiers suck" I used was just there to mean that a Muslim showed his disapproval and frustration, I dont recall exactly what he said.

As for you kai, then what Ive said wasnt adressed to you, you showed your disagreement to people posts before the brother spoke , others changed their view after it.

Anyway , my post wasnt meant to speak about someone specifically , it was just a call for objectivity before posts get derived by emotions or nationalism or loyalty to the patry or anything close to this.

i wasnt dissagreeing with anyone my very first sentence is

"Any info to go with the footage?"

i understand your position FBI because thats exactly what i wanted objectivity

 

[Bismillah]

What is the end game for the insurgency Abibi ? The continuing murder of Iraqis by Iraqis doesn't detract from the suffering of the Iraqis and doesnt bode well for the future

Well you tell me. Is it a surprise that Shia, Sunni, and Kurd militias are busy fighting each other. Is it a surprise when the government is led by a Sunni majority in a Shia majority country that there will be animosity. Is it a surprise that insurgents hate the West which has so thoroughly dismantled their country.

The insurgency is a direct response to America and Britains unjust occupation of their country, years long sanctions, and support for one of them most heinous rulers of the 20th century.

Because let us not forget, it was the West that offered Saddam components for mustard gas and "subsidies for pesticides". This insurgency is a knee-jerk reaction to years of American and British interference in the hand of Iraqi politics. And it has spawned a new wave of animosity among Iraqis who are divided among sectarian lines.

Last year over 1000 policemen were killed 2,635 people were killed in bombings averaging 2 a day which counted for 66 % of all civilian deaths, there were 113 civilian deaths by US/Iraqi forces.

and some sources quote that as the lowest since the invasion.

i think its obvious what Iraqis are dealing with here is a systematic killing brought on by their brothers and sisters in the ummah executing and blowing to pieces their own people for quasi political reasons.

Civilian deaths from violence in 2010 :: Iraq Body Count

the US does tally up the Iraqi dead just as various other sources do. what amazes me is the lack of realisation or acceptance of how many Muslims in Iraq are killed by fellow Muslims.

And I can safely say that none of these deaths would have been needed if not for American imperialistic adventures throughout the decades.

And no, the military failed to keep a accurate body count of the Iraqi dead during the invasion of 2003.

When pressed then Secretary of State Powell admitted that the military had not kept figures of Iraqi dead.

That is why every figure is an estimate done by a independent organization.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Because let us not forget, it was the West that offered Saddam components for mustard gas and "subsidies for pesticides".

Source?

 

[Bismillah]

I have to go back home and pull the relevent pages out of some books but

The non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control sold or sent biological samples of anthrax, West Nile virus and botulism to Iraq up until 1989, which Iraq claimed it needed for medical research. A number of these materials were used for Iraq's biological weapons research program, while others were used for vaccine development.[29] For example, the Iraqi military settled on the American Type Culture Collection strain 14578 as the exclusive anthrax strain for use as a biological weapon, according to Charles Duelfer.[30]

In the late 80s, the British government secretly gave the arms company Matrix Churchill permission to supply parts for Saddam Hussein's weapons program, while British Industry supplied Gerald Bull as he developed the Iraqi supergun. In March 1990, a case of nuclear triggers bound for Iraq, were seized at Heathrow Airport. The Scott Report uncovered much of the secrecy that had surrounded the Arms-to-Iraq affair when it became known.[31] The British government also financed a chlorine factory that was intended to be used for manufacturing mustard gas.[32]

An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium. The nation also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, which can hardly be said to be for energy. Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gases to Iraq. The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gases to Iraq. Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions. India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gases. Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors. Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales. China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare. Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982. Niger provided yellowcake in 1981.[33]

As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.[27]

Then of course there is the fact that American intelligence gave satellite pictures of Iranian troop deployments so that Saddam could use his chemical weapons most effectively. Not to mention that while all this was going on, no on protested not only chemical use on Iranian soldiers, admittedly no one in the West has the balls to condemn this still, but on towns such as Halabja until Saddam threatened the West's oil supply.

 

[Bismillah]

And one could also just make the argument that the use of depleted uranium in Iraq was another form of poising its population, specifically the children of Iraq.

 

[kai]

Well you tell me. Is it a surprise that Shia, Sunni, and Kurd militias are busy fighting each other. Is it a surprise when the government is led by a Sunni majority in a Shia majority country that there will be animosity. Is it a surprise that insurgents hate the West which has so thoroughly dismantled their country.


Its not only a surpise but a great puzzle to me !!Why is there such animosity that they kill each other these brothers and sisters of the Ummah? why if the insurgents hate the west so much do they kill Iraqis?

The insurgency is a direct response to America and Britains unjust occupation of their country, years long sanctions, and support for one of them most heinous rulers of the 20th century. Again then why do insurgents kill fellow kill Iraqis?

Because let us not forget, it was the West that offered Saddam components for mustard gas and "subsidies for pesticides". This insurgency is a knee-jerk reaction to years of American and British interference in the hand of Iraqi politics. And it has spawned a new wave of animosity among Iraqis who are divided among sectarian lines.

They are divided along sectarian lines not because of any western interference Abibi its an "Islamic" divide. and what a strange knee jerk reaction to the Americans and British to systematically kill fellow Iraqis.

And I can safely say that none of these deaths would have been needed if not for American imperialistic adventures throughout the decades.

And no, the military failed to keep a accurate body count of the Iraqi dead during the invasion of 2003.

When pressed then Secretary of State Powell admitted that the military had not kept figures of Iraqi dead.

That is why every figure is an estimate done by a independent organization.

and they all differ these counts because there doesnt seems to be a way of accurately doing it .and really you actually blame the US for Muslim on Muslim violence? Thats extraordinary.




BAGHDAD / Aswat al-Iraq: One civilian was killed and six more were wounded in three blasts in Baghdad, a security source said on Wednesday.
“A sticky bomb was detonated in al-Qadissiya neighborhood near the train station in western Baghdad, killing a civilian and injuring another one,” the source told Aswat al-Iraq news agency.
“Another bomb, stuck to a civilian car, exploded in al-Aamel neighborhood, western Baghdad, injuring two civilians,” he added.
Noting that a roadside bomb went off in Zayouna region, eastern Baghdad, injuring two policemen and one civilian.




was lying on the floor and every now and then there would be an explosion or gunshots over our heads, over the lights, over the fixtures, over the Crucifix, over the Madonna, everywhere. After that, they started to say "Allahu akbar" [Arabic for God is great], and they blew themselves up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11666557



Those damned Americans eh!!!!!!!!!!!!



so a group of insurgents enter a church and kill 57 Iraqis and blow themselves up, because of years of American and British interference in the hand of Iraqi politics?

 

[Bismillah]

Its not only a surpise but a great puzzle to me !!Why is there such animosity that they kill each other these brothers and sisters of the Ummah? why if the insurgents hate the west so much do they kill Iraqis?

Kai, let's be frank. There is no Ummah. If I had to pick one country that had destroyed the concept of fraternity among Muslims it would be Iraq.

The reason for this insurgency is because of Saddams own rule of course. He repressed the Shias. He repressed the Kurds.

After Saddam brutally crushed the Shia and Kurdish rebels that were abandoned by coalition forces, they now take their revenge. And the Sunnis likewise fight for dominance, while all three groups, except maybe the Kurds, despise the U.S presence that has managed to play a hand in destroying their country so thoroughly.

Again then why do insurgents kill fellow kill Iraqis?

Because years of repression along ethnic lines does that to people.

They are divided along sectarian lines not because of any western interference Abibi its an "Islamic" divide. and what a strange knee jerk reaction to the Americans and British to systematically kill fellow Iraqis.

Please. Of course they are "religiously" divided but it was Saddam who exploited this and Saddam who punished them.

And of course we know the breadtrail of Western support follows Saddam wherever he goes.

Because when the Kurds were being gassed in Halabja, a German arms company was profiting. An American president was silent and the West thoroughly praised Saddam as the Middle East's savior.

It really isn't that hard.

Saddam targeted minorities.

Said minorities now target the Sunnis

Sunnis continue to target the minorities that they had repressed and the "coalition forces" in Iraq.

and they all differ these counts because there doesnt seems to be a way of accurately doing it

Of course if the American government had attempted to release a count in the first years of the invasion you would have a point...

and really you actually blame the US for Muslim on Muslim violence? Thats extraordinary.

Really? Tell me how much sectarian violence there was in Iraq before Saddam. How many Shia Sunni bomb blasts was Baghdad rocked by.

so a group of insurgents enter a church and kill 57 Iraqis and blow themselves up, because of years of American and British interference in the hand of Iraqi politics?

You can try and deny it, but the truth is that the West supported a brutal murderer.

It's pasted in newspapers in every Western language hailing him.

You want to minimize it that's fine, but know this before the 2003 invasion there had never been a suicide bomber in Iraq.

The first suicide bomber was a Shia Iraqi reservest, Ali Hammadi al-Naman, who had fought in the Iran-Iraq war.

His target was the American invading force.