Colleges & universities should take action against professors who deliberately fail too many students

[AsianActivist]

Let me start with this: A professors main job is to ensure that student's are getting the training they need for the real world. To make sure that they know enough to pass the test's and know the material.

When a significant # of people are failing a course, we really need to ask what’s going on. It can’t just be that all these student's forgot how to study. It’s like getting kicked out of a bar—if it happens once, OK maybe the bouncer was a jerk but if it keeps happening YOU might be the problem. Consider it another way, I have heard proff's brag about a 30, 40 or even 50% failure rate in there classes. Now if they were pilots a 50% success rate at landing planes would be pretty bad yet for some reason it's fine for these proff's to fail half of there class.

Now let's say that they didn't set out to fail students. When a lot of students are struggling, we have to wonder: is the teaching any good? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done my homework, felt ready, and then the test hits hard. The questions r totally different from the homework/books. It really messes with your confedence.

This should also apply to all levels of education. If a teacher/proff has a lot of failing students, maybe it’s not just the students who need to change. Some people say, “Students should just study harder,” but that misses the point. Education is a partnership and both sides need to work together. Obviously the students are doing there part, so something’s off.

Also high failure rates create a bad vibe in the classroom. One bad grade especially when there are only 3 tests and a midterm that decide the majority of your grade can make it feel impossible to even come back so you don't even try on the next one. Everyone feels defeated. Honestly if a professor sees lots of students failing, the school should step in.

 

[Jedster]

When I was lecturing (1988-1998, UK)) each course had a set syllabus, and the exams were written in accordance with the syllabus.
That applied to vocational courses to degrees.
What country are you referring to?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

A 30% or worse failure rate seems high.
However the success of a teacher at every level is reflected in the successes of their students.

My grand son teaches students at a further education college who previously failed their school leaving exams. But who needs to pass English and maths to continue with trade training.
Many of them have little to no motivation to even attend classes, every one of them that passes their exams is considered a feather in his cap. And more than half of them do.
We are talking about the least able and least motivated students in the system, any that pass their exams can look forward to the opportunities of at least semiskilled employment.

I would expect virtually all students working towards a degree at university, who complete their studies, to get at least a pass degree. a professor teaching at that level should be able to communicate and motivate far more than adequately than enough, for their students to meet their targets. Should that not be the case they are perhaps in the wrong profession.

My grand son has in addition to his teaching qualification, a first class honours degree and masters, in English and linguistics. He is considered a motivational teacher.

 

[PureX]

Let me start with this: A professors main job is to ensure that student's are getting the training they need for the real world.

That is not the job of a college professor. That is the job of a parent and some trade school teacher. The purpose of college is to provide an environment for mutual advanced inquiry into a chosen field of study. It is not the purpose of a college education to teach people how to be a good cog in the wheel. It's to help people learn about the wheel, itself. And how to make it better.

When a significant # of people are failing a course, we really need to ask what’s going on.

I agree.

I have heard proff's brag about a 30, 40 or even 50% failure rate in there classes. Now if they were pilots a 50% success rate at landing planes would be pretty bad yet for some reason it's fine for these proff's to fail half of there class.

They are not pilots.

My guess is that what is happening is that our lower educational system is not preparing young people to be functioning adults, anymore. So that even after 12 years of schooling, they remain overgrown children that are too immature to grasp the whole point of attending a college. And the professors have no choice but to fail them for not being able to participate in the college experience in even the most rudimentary way.

I suspect this to be the case because k-12 teachers are quitting in droves these days because the students they are getting are literally unteachable. Not because they have any sort of brain defects, but because their parents have not prepared them to function in a school setting.

Now let's say that they didn't set out to fail students. When a lot of students are struggling, we have to wonder: is the teaching any good? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done my homework, felt ready, and then the test hits hard. The questions r totally different from the homework/books. It really messes with your confedence.

This should also apply to all levels of education. If a teacher/proff has a lot of failing students, maybe it’s not just the students who need to change. Some people say, “Students should just study harder,” but that misses the point. Education is a partnership and both sides need to work together. Obviously the students are doing there part, so something’s off.

Also high failure rates create a bad vibe in the classroom. One bad grade especially when there are only 3 tests and a midterm that decide the majority of your grade can make it feel impossible to even come back so you don't even try on the next one. Everyone feels defeated. Honestly if a professor sees lots of students failing, the school should step in.

By the time they get to college it's WAY too late for "stepping in". The stepping in needed to happen back in grade school when it became apparent that a significant number of children were behaving so badly in the school setting that they were basically unteachable. And of course that falls on the parents, who are working themselves to exhaustion just trying to keep food on the table and a roof over the kid's heads.

The entire culture has been poisoned by the blind stupidity of a system that makes all it's decisions based on greed. No college professor can fix that. Probably no one can fix it. We are living at the end of an empire, and this is what it looks like ... greed and stupidity running amok. Parents worked to exhaustion, neglected kids that cannot learn, schools that become day-care centers, colleges that become trade schools pumping out adults that never grew up to begin with.

 

[Koldo]

That is not the job of a college professor. That is the job of a parent and some trade school teacher. The purpose of college is to provide an environment for mutual advanced inquiry into a chosen field of study. It is not the purpose of a college education to teach people how to be a good cog in the wheel. It's to help people learn about the wheel, itself. And how to make it better.

I agree.

They are not pilots.

My guess is that what is happening is that our lower educational system is not preparing young people to be functioning adults, anymore. So that even after 12 years of schooling, they remain overgrown children that are too immature to grasp the whole point of attending a college. And the professors have no choice but to fail them for not being able to participate in the college experience in even the most rudimentary way.

I suspect this to be the case because k-12 teachers are quitting in droves these days because the students they are getting are literally unteachable. Not because they have any sort of brain defects, but because their parents have not prepared them to function in a school setting.

By the time they get to college it's WAY too late for "stepping in". The stepping in needed to happen back in grade school when it became apparent that a significant number of children were behaving so badly in the school setting that they were basically unteachable. And of course that falls on the parents, who are working themselves to exhaustion just trying to keep food on the table and a roof over the kid's heads.

The entire culture has been poisoned by the blind stupidity of a system that makes all it's decisions based on greed. No college professor can fix that. Probably no one can fix it. We are living at the end of an empire, and this is what it looks like ... greed and stupidity running amok. Parents worked to exhaustion, neglected kids that cannot learn, schools that become day-care centers, colleges that become trade schools pumping out adults that never grew up to begin with.

I am bemused. Have you ever had a class that was considered hard by your peers because it involved learning about the wheel and making it better? That was never the case with me. Hard classes, in my experience, always revolved around asking students to either remember very specific details in a test or asking very hard/tricky questions when the teaching revolved around the basics only.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That is not the job of a college professor. That is the job of a parent and some trade school teacher. The purpose of college is to provide an environment for mutual advanced inquiry into a chosen field of study. It is not the purpose of a college education to teach people how to be a good cog in the wheel. It's to help people learn about the wheel, itself. And how to make it better.

I agree.

They are not pilots.

My guess is that what is happening is that our lower educational system is not preparing young people to be functioning adults, anymore. So that even after 12 years of schooling, they remain overgrown children that are too immature to grasp the whole point of attending a college. And the professors have no choice but to fail them for not being able to participate in the college experience in even the most rudimentary way.

I suspect this to be the case because k-12 teachers are quitting in droves these days because the students they are getting are literally unteachable. Not because they have any sort of brain defects, but because their parents have not prepared them to function in a school setting.

By the time they get to college it's WAY too late for "stepping in". The stepping in needed to happen back in grade school when it became apparent that a significant number of children were behaving so badly in the school setting that they were basically unteachable. And of course that falls on the parents, who are working themselves to exhaustion just trying to keep food on the table and a roof over the kid's heads.

The entire culture has been poisoned by the blind stupidity of a system that makes all it's decisions based on greed. No college professor can fix that. Probably no one can fix it. We are living at the end of an empire, and this is what it looks like ... greed and stupidity running amok. Parents worked to exhaustion, neglected kids that cannot learn, schools that become day-care centers, colleges that become trade schools pumping out adults that never grew up to begin with.

How can unmotivated and unqualified students even get into a higher education college or university. That makes no sense.

However such failed school students are usually able to get into further education colleges that mostly have far lower entry requirements and lower level courses. And who are often able to bring along late developers, as to be able to progress even as far as degree level.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Colleges and universities should take action against
professors who deliberatively fail too many students​

What kind of college or university?

What constitutes too many?​

How deliberatively? Unfair tests? Subjective grading?​

What type of course? Entry-level requirement? Post grad elective?​

What kind of action?​

How is the professor viewed by her/his peers?​

How is the professor viewed by the majority of those students who pass?​

Giving us none of this, we're lectured that schools should do something to presumably bad teachers who presumably abuse their authority. OK. If this is a test:

I vote YES; I am resolutely against indifferent institutions enabling bad members doing bad things.​

​

Did I pass?

 

[bobhikes]

Let me start with this: A professors main job is to ensure that student's are getting the training they need for the real world. To make sure that they know enough to pass the test's and know the material.

When a significant # of people are failing a course, we really need to ask what’s going on. It can’t just be that all these student's forgot how to study. It’s like getting kicked out of a bar—if it happens once, OK maybe the bouncer was a jerk but if it keeps happening YOU might be the problem. Consider it another way, I have heard proff's brag about a 30, 40 or even 50% failure rate in there classes. Now if they were pilots a 50% success rate at landing planes would be pretty bad yet for some reason it's fine for these proff's to fail half of there class.

Now let's say that they didn't set out to fail students. When a lot of students are struggling, we have to wonder: is the teaching any good? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done my homework, felt ready, and then the test hits hard. The questions r totally different from the homework/books. It really messes with your confedence.

This should also apply to all levels of education. If a teacher/proff has a lot of failing students, maybe it’s not just the students who need to change. Some people say, “Students should just study harder,” but that misses the point. Education is a partnership and both sides need to work together. Obviously the students are doing there part, so something’s off.

Also high failure rates create a bad vibe in the classroom. One bad grade especially when there are only 3 tests and a midterm that decide the majority of your grade can make it feel impossible to even come back so you don't even try on the next one. Everyone feels defeated. Honestly if a professor sees lots of students failing, the school should step in.

Don't agree, When it comes to Grade school yes the teacher's are responsible for getting the students to learn the basics for life. Excessive failure rates are a failure of the school and teacher's

For advanced education however this is not the case, The teacher's responsibility is to produce a viable candidate for the workforce in the graduate's study, which is why most college's post work placement rates not graduation rates. The student chose's the course they want to study, the student choses the college they want to attend, and the student decides on the effort they want to put in. It is the student's responsibility to insure they pass. I can list tons of reasons why students do not succeed, and college and the Professor will not be in the top 5.

 

[EinGeheimkonto]

A professors main job is to ensure that student's are getting the training they need for the real world.

How can unmotivated and unqualified students even get into a higher education college or university. That makes no sense.

This does happen from time to time. A notable recent case:This Hartford Public High School grad can't read. What happened?

There are a lot of factors, especially in America. One big factor, especially at big "sports" schools. America doesn't really have the youth club setup that European countries have. Athletics in America are often based in schools. If you are good enough, you might get recruited as a player by a college. The highest level of this—college and university sports—serves as the principal recruiting pool for the pro leagues. Many of these "student ath-o-letes" (as a certain South Park character would say) are not the most academically inclined and are brought in simply to win games on behalf of the school.

There is also a similar idea of "holistic admissions". Where some students are not necessarily admitted strictly on academics, but merely because a committee determined they were a "person of interest".

In America, a lot of private universities are effectively corporations. Some might have initially had a state charters. Harvard University is run by the Harvard Corporation, for example - and is a basically has a few billion in the bank. Now Harvard and other Ivy Leagues are outliers in that as it has a lot of money, it is still able to attract the best and brightest - but many of your mid-tier "Small Liberal Arts Colleges" (SLACs for short) don't have the cash on hand, and a large part of their operating budget does come from ensuring that enrollment meets a certain benchmark.

Thus in some cases, you'd have students who aren't too bright - but are wealthy. They might not come from old money, so they aren't getting into Harvard or Yale, but they can manage to get into one of these mid-tier colleges at full cost.

Last but not least: the American school system doesn't prepare a lot of students for college. Some statistics show that most Americans read at a 7th to 8th grade reading level. The American school system did a great job when 20% of students went to a university or college, and the rest to work or the military, but quite simply now that most students are going on to some form of tertiary education, that's simply not enough.

 

[PureX]

How can unmotivated and unqualified students even get into a higher education college or university. That makes no sense.

Money, money, money, is how. We live in a culture completely controlled by the profit motive. That means give as little value as possible and charge the highest price for it that you can get away with. It's a way of thinking that has poisoned everything we do.

However such failed school students are usually able to get into further education colleges that mostly have far lower entry requirements and lower level courses. And who are often able to bring along late developers, as to be able to progress even as far as degree level.

Colleges are businesses, now. Their purpose is not to educate. It's to make money to pay big salaries to the top administrators. Deans are CEOs now. The more money they take in, the bigger their own salaries. Get rid of the tenured professors and pay the students to teach each other and you get a big fat bonus.

The real professors resist this. They fail the failing students. But ultimately that isn't going to be good for business, so they will end up being 'phased out' and replaced by student teachers (for much much less money).

 

[Koldo]

Don't agree, When it comes to Grade school yes the teacher's are responsible for getting the students to learn the basics for life. Excessive failure rates are a failure of the school and teacher's

For advanced education however this is not the case, The teacher's responsibility is to produce a viable candidate for the workforce in the graduate's study, which is why most college's post work placement rates not graduation rates.

It is literally the same thing. In grade school, it is also the teacher's responsibility to provide a viable candidate to the workforce.

 

[bobhikes]

It is literally the same thing. In grade school, it is also the teacher's responsibility to provide a viable candidate to the workforce.

I don't agree, Grade school is designed to bring about a basic level of education for society and not all grade school graduates work after graduating. More students do work today but, in the past, even though women were educated they were expected to stay at home and take care of the family.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I am bemused. Have you ever had a class that was considered hard by your peers because it involved learning about the wheel and making it better? That was never the case with me. Hard classes, in my experience, always revolved around asking students to either remember very specific details in a test or asking very hard/tricky questions when the teaching revolved around the basics only.

Who needs to memorize long lists of details. No one needs to, though some can. It is always prone to the possibility of error.
For me, at any rate, learning has always been about how to do things, preferably from basics, and how to expand from there. It is more about processes than facts. The further you advance the more it is about research, and developing new ideas.

Tests based on memory only prove that you may have a good memory. They say nothing about your intelligence, originality, ability to think and reason or your effectiveness at anything.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Money, money, money, is how. We live in a culture completely controlled by the profit motive. That means give as little value as possible and charge the highest price for it that you can get away with. It's a way of thinking that has poisoned everything we do.

Colleges are businesses, now. Their purpose is not to educate. It's to make money to pay big salaries to the top administrators. Deans are CEOs now. The more money they take in, the bigger their own salaries. Get rid of the tenured professors and pay the students to teach each other and you get a big fat bonus.

The real professors resist this. They fail the failing students. But ultimately that isn't going to be good for business, so they will end up being 'phased out' and replaced by student teachers (for much much less money).

It is perfectly true that most education facilities have to be run as businesses, a large majority in the UK are Publicly funded. all are regularly inspected and have to meet the designated standards. This includes the standard of teaching and students attainments and entry requirements.

However fee receipts are vital, especially those from foreign students.. but bums on seats are not sufficient, academic standards must be maintained and be able to be demonstrated. Unlike the USA these are National standards.

It is however very clear that attainments in the East are far higher than in the West..

 

[Koldo]

I don't agree, Grade school is designed to bring about a basic level of education for society and not all grade school graduates work after graduating. More students do work today but, in the past, even though women were educated they were expected to stay at home and take care of the family.

Nor do all college graduates work at their field of expertise, or even work at all. The historical role of formal education is a tangent here. Nowadays schools, in general, are centered around preparing students to integrate in the work force.

 

[EinGeheimkonto]

I can list tons of reasons why students do not succeed, and college and the Professor will not be in the top 5.

As someone who taught as an adjunct lecturer at the Community College level, I can usually lack of knowledge/training plays into it.

Sometimes it's pre-requisite content. Even if we are told to "meet students where they're at" - if a student comes into my General Physics class and struggles with the fundamentals of Algebra, he's not going to have a good time. Even if several students are struggling with Algebra, I don't really have a choice but to just move on with the other planned content. It would be a dis-service to the students who are on track to review algebra when this is primarily a physics course.

More and more, it's not just pre-requisite course content - A lot of students just don't have the study habits or time management skills to perform well. Many high schools coddle students in such a way that when they experience the real world for the first time, they are overwhelmed.

Another part is laziness and apathy on the part of the students as well.

There are other times when students just can't hack it.

Early in my teaching career, I taught Introduction to Computer Programming. There were students who struggled with even basics like "Hello World" (a program which instructs the computer to print the words "Hello, World" to the screen). Needless to say, they struggled even more as the semester progressed.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Colleges and universities should take action against
professors who deliberatively fail too many students​

What kind of college or university?

What constitutes too many?​

How deliberatively? Unfair tests? Subjective grading?​

What type of course? Entry-level requirement? Post grad elective?​

What kind of action?​

How is the professor viewed by her/his peers?​

How is the professor viewed by the majority of those students who pass?​

Giving us none of this, we're lectured that schools should do something to presumably bad teachers who presumably abuse their authority. OK. If this is a test:

I vote YES; I am resolutely against indifferent institutions enabling bad members doing bad things.​

​

Did I pass?

I would say a good professor will deliberately fail you and others until you deliberately show adequate competence in your chosen major field of study. ;0)

 

[wellwisher]

Let me start with this: A professors main job is to ensure that student's are getting the training they need for the real world. To make sure that they know enough to pass the test's and know the material.

When a significant # of people are failing a course, we really need to ask what’s going on. It can’t just be that all these student's forgot how to study. It’s like getting kicked out of a bar—if it happens once, OK maybe the bouncer was a jerk but if it keeps happening YOU might be the problem. Consider it another way, I have heard proff's brag about a 30, 40 or even 50% failure rate in there classes. Now if they were pilots a 50% success rate at landing planes would be pretty bad yet for some reason it's fine for these proff's to fail half of there class.

Now let's say that they didn't set out to fail students. When a lot of students are struggling, we have to wonder: is the teaching any good? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done my homework, felt ready, and then the test hits hard. The questions r totally different from the homework/books. It really messes with your confedence.

This should also apply to all levels of education. If a teacher/proff has a lot of failing students, maybe it’s not just the students who need to change. Some people say, “Students should just study harder,” but that misses the point. Education is a partnership and both sides need to work together. Obviously the students are doing there part, so something’s off.

Also high failure rates create a bad vibe in the classroom. One bad grade especially when there are only 3 tests and a midterm that decide the majority of your grade can make it feel impossible to even come back so you don't even try on the next one. Everyone feels defeated. Honestly if a professor sees lots of students failing, the school should step in.

It has to do with the DEI mentality of Liberalism. When people get positions, or get into colleges, based on shallow criteria; shoe size, and not the due to their competence, fantasy will come in contact with reality, unless everyone is willing to live the lie. Since many are not prepared for the hard knocks of reality, and not all teacher and professors live the fantasy, many will hit hard reality.

When I was in college, many year ago, one was graded on a straight A, B, C scale. If you averaged 80-89, that was a B or 2.0. A little after that, they started to water down grades, with grade inflation, by adding B-,B, B+, etc. to allow for 2.0, 2.5, and even 2.75 for what used to be 2.0. The student got better GPA with lower grades. This was to compensate for affirmative action and standardized tests, to create the illusion of the same GPA level with less smarts. Tuition meant $$$ for college coffers.

It appears some Professors are expecting excellence, and are not bowing to the latest DEI illusion. The DEI illusion lowered standards to allow four years of debt, while not preparing all students for the real world. They inflates score without learning or being prepared. This now looks unethical for colleges and is. To the Left, having the diploma means more than actually learning anything; wade in the diploma shallows with four years of debt.

Now the trend for some colleges is maybe one year or one semester of debt and then flunk students. Now the students have the second chance to find another way to get ahead in life, without debt, by finding where their competence lies; natural advancement. It may be start a small business via the skilled trades. Diplomas are not what they used to be and in the world of hard knocks money still walks and talks.

 

[bobhikes]

Nor do all college graduates work at their field of expertise, or even work at all. The historical role of formal education is a tangent here. Nowadays schools, in general, are centered around preparing students to integrate in the work force.

Choice is the factor in college. Grade school is required. Throughout history college, trade school or apprenticeship has been required for a job and throughout history if you failed learn the requirements you lost your place no matter the field.

 

[Watchmen]

Let me start with this: A professors main job is to ensure that student's are getting the training they need for the real world. To make sure that they know enough to pass the test's and know the material.

When a significant # of people are failing a course, we really need to ask what’s going on. It can’t just be that all these student's forgot how to study. It’s like getting kicked out of a bar—if it happens once, OK maybe the bouncer was a jerk but if it keeps happening YOU might be the problem. Consider it another way, I have heard proff's brag about a 30, 40 or even 50% failure rate in there classes. Now if they were pilots a 50% success rate at landing planes would be pretty bad yet for some reason it's fine for these proff's to fail half of there class.

Now let's say that they didn't set out to fail students. When a lot of students are struggling, we have to wonder: is the teaching any good? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done my homework, felt ready, and then the test hits hard. The questions r totally different from the homework/books. It really messes with your confedence.

This should also apply to all levels of education. If a teacher/proff has a lot of failing students, maybe it’s not just the students who need to change. Some people say, “Students should just study harder,” but that misses the point. Education is a partnership and both sides need to work together. Obviously the students are doing there part, so something’s off.

Also high failure rates create a bad vibe in the classroom. One bad grade especially when there are only 3 tests and a midterm that decide the majority of your grade can make it feel impossible to even come back so you don't even try on the next one. Everyone feels defeated. Honestly if a professor sees lots of students failing, the school should step in.

I’m not familiar with any problem of failing too many students. To the contrary, the reverse seems to be true: grade inflation (ie, handing how As for subpar work).