Coloring outside the lines

[Wildswanderer]

If it's real, why are there so many different accounts of it, one per person? If a hundred people look at a dog, they'll all say, That's a dog, But when they dream, or imagine, or read about, the spiritual, the supernatural, the immaterial, the only thing they can do is imagine, no?

No. Because why should the spiritual world be limited to everyone seeing it the same? We all relate to revelations differently. That doesn't make them less real. And really a hundred people will see any event differently. Ever see the movie: " vantage point".?

 

[ratiocinator]

So I can not conclude a miracle happened if I see it happening even if I can not understand it?

Of course you can't, how do you rule out some unknown natural explanation (perhaps even unknown natural laws)? You not understanding something does not make it miraculous.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Of course you can't, how do you rule out some unknown natural explanation (perhaps even unknown natural laws)? You not understanding something does not make it miraculous.

So, if I saw a broken arm for example, bone sticking out and all, suddenly heal itself, I could not know it was a miracle?
As Balki would say: "don't be ridiculous."

 

[ratiocinator]

So, if I saw a broken arm for example, bone sticking out and all, suddenly heal itself, I could not know it was a miracle?

Logically, all you could say is that you couldn't explain what you saw (or thought you saw). Much of modern technology would seem miraculous to people who lived hundreds of years ago and eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable. Ever seen a conjuring trick you can't explain?

This is also somewhat tangential. You haven't even suggested a miracle to explain. You've said there is evidence for a god but haven't actually given any. As I pointed out before (#33) suggesting a god to explain complexity and purpose is a step in the wrong direction.

 

[blü 2]

No. Because why should the spiritual world be limited to everyone seeing it the same? We all relate to revelations differently. That doesn't make them less real.

Revelations are mental phenomena like dreams and hallucinations, not events in nature and they're not about reality. They're about ideas, dreams, imaginings. That's why a Jewish god was worshiped in Israel, and still is, and versions of the Rainbow Serpent are still central to the supernatural beliefs of the Australian aboriginals ─ another difference being that the natives of Australia have held their beliefs for at least 5000 years, while Yahweh doesn't appear until abut 3500 years ago. And the natives of Australia never heard of Jesus until the 19th century, and many not until the 20th.

And really a hundred people will see any event differently. Ever see the movie: " vantage point".?

Ever wonder why traffic cops use cameras? Could it be to maximize objectivity, do you think?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Revelations are mental phenomena like dreams and hallucinations, not events in nature and they're not about reality.

You are just jealous because you haven't had any revelations.
And miracles quite often are physical events.

 

[blü 2]

You are just jealous because you haven't had any revelations.
And miracles quite often are physical events.

I'm not envious of revelations ─ I have no wish to have to afford a psychiatrist.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I'm not envious of revelations ─ I have no wish to have to afford a psychiatrist.

You seem incapable of thinking outside your physical reality box. It's a very close minded point of view.
Much narrower than any theistic views. Funny how religious people get called narrow minded, when it's really the opposite.

 

[blü 2]

You seem incapable of thinking outside your physical reality box. It's a very close minded point of view.

Dear Wildswanderer, I assure you that though I grew up on SF and Tolkien &c, my grandfatherly duties have given me a far greater intimacy with Harry Potter and the Marvel world &c than I ever intended; and that I've greatly enjoyed it. I'm not unfamiliar with the worlds of English literature, nor history, at least from the Western perspective. Worlds of imagination and of hypothesis engage me readily,

But in my view, one must be careful to distinguish what;'s known from what's hypotheisized, what's real and what's imaginary. and when it comes to old documents, to examine them for what, when, where, who, why. This is not your view, I know, because we disagree about the bible, but it's mine. If you live in a free country, that's one of the advantages.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Dear Wildswanderer, I assure you that though I grew up on SF and Tolkien &c, my grandfatherly duties have given me a far greater intimacy with Harry Potter and the Marvel world &c than I ever intended; and that I've greatly enjoyed it. I'm not unfamiliar with the worlds of English literature, nor history, at least from the Western perspective. Worlds of imagination and of hypothesis engage me readily,

But in my view, one must be careful to distinguish what;'s known from what's hypotheisized, what's real and what's imaginary. and when it comes to old documents, to examine them for what, when, where, who, why. This is not your view, I know, because we disagree about the bible, but it's mine. If you live in a free country, that's one of the advantages.

God isn't imaginary. Those stories are just allegories for the greatest story of all, the true one, where God becomes a man in order to save us.

God really does speak... in fact he has never quit speaking. Everything we see in the natural world he spoke into being.

 

[blü 2]

God isn't imaginary. Those stories are just allegories for the greatest story of all, the true one, where God becomes a man in order to save us.

I simply can't find any way for that to be true ─ that's to say, an accurate statement about reality.

God really does speak... in fact he has never quit speaking. Everything we see in the natural world he spoke into being.

What's the technique which allows you to "speak" something into being? I'd find it very handy, so I;m genuinely interested in your reply. If you don't Know, I assume your church has rigorous research programs to find out how it's done?