Combat Kit against the "Quran Only" Muslims

Union · Oct 4, 2013

[these are only two examples of Qur'an verses that need supplementation from the hadith in order to interpret and explain it more clearly, but there are many more verses of the Qur'an that would remain a mystery, such as which are the four sacred months, as well as many others, if it had not been interpreted and explained in the ahadith.]

Bring thousand examples and all are having their well-explanation within the Qur'an . One part of the Qur'an can explain the other parts . Only what you need is to empty your mind to obey the words of ALLAH and not the words of Bukhari & Co.

Now talking about four sacred months , once you establish the head of these months then you know the others one after another coming in sequence .

[002:185] Month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.

[Note : This is the first verse mentions about month in Qur'an and also related with ramadan]

[002:186] And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright.

[002:187] It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them. Allah is Aware that ye were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you. So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you, and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques. These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus Allah expoundeth His revelation to mankind that they may ward off (evil).

[002:188] And eat not up your property among yourselves in vanity, nor seek by it to gain the hearing of the judges that ye may knowingly devour a portion of the property of others wrongfully.

[002:189] They ask thee, (O Muhammad), of new moons, say: They are fixed seasons for mankind and for the pilgrimage. It is not righteousness that ye go to houses by the backs thereof (as do the idolaters at certain seasons), but the righteous man is he who wardeth off (evil). So go to houses by the gates thereof, and observe your duty to Allah, that ye may be successful.

[002:190] Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

[002:191] And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

[002:192] But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[002:193] And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

[002:194] The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

[Note : This is the first verse mentions sacred/forbidden month and is in definite and singular form ]

[002:195] Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah, and be not cast by your own hands to ruin; and do good. Lo! Allah loveth the beneficent.

[002:196] Perform the pilgrimage and the visit (to Makka) for Allah. And if ye are prevented, then send such gifts as can be obtained with ease, and shave not your heads until the gifts have reached their destination. And whoever among you is sick or hath an ailment of the head must pay a ransom of fasting or almsgiving or offering. And if ye are in safety, then whosoever contenteth himself with the visit for the pilgrimage (shall give) such gifts as can be had with ease. And whosoever cannot find (such gifts), then a fast of three days while on the pilgrimage, and of seven when ye have returned; that is, ten in all. That is for him whoso folk are not present at the Inviolable Place of Worship. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.

Now if you connect the above 2:185 with 2:194 , it is obvious that Ramadan is the the sacred/forbidden month is the first one .The following verses suggest that the four sacred months should be in serial and consecutive , as oppose to what Hadith suggests (1-st,7-th,11-th,12-th month ) :

[009:036] Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them. And wage war on all of the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you. And know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

[009:002] Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

[009:005] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[002:194] The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

Therefore all those restricted four months are in sequence whose head/first is month of Ramadan . The rest three months should be observed by citing the new moon . Simple , isn't it ?

-Another hadith:
'Umar radi Allahu anhu remarked: "By Allah, we did not give any position to women in the Jahiliyyah period until such time that Allah sent His command in respect of them and apportioned for them the role that was to be theirs." (Muslim)

-If we did not have any hadith, furthermore, how would we know any history about the society, or societies of the past, or anything about any of the prophets (especially about the life of prophet Muhammad saws)??? If you want to go into the life and history of the prophet (saws), and many other events in his life and the life of many of the other prophets, then you must delve into the ahadith. Do not forget that the ahadith also contains the contents of the salat and how to perform them, which is mentioned many times in the Qur'an but not the methodology of how to perform it.

Again you have to prove those Ahadith were written in the society while Prophet and his company were alive . 200-250 years a long time to know about a society my friend . And For the details of Salah from the Quran please refer to the post#05 of this thread .

Union · Oct 4, 2013

Response to Part 4: More hadiths on signs before Judgment, specifically predictions of future events:

-Also, can you not admit to yourself that the few hadiths that I referred to earlier on the Judgment contain many truths that have come to pass that the people could not have possibly known about back then (approx 1500 years ago)? Here are a few more to ponder upon:
· Books/writing will be widespread and knowledge will be low (Ahmad)
· Adultery and fornication will be prevalent (The Prophet, peace be upon him, said that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people, which their ancestors had not known.) (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Al-Haythami)
· When fornication becomes widespread among your leaders (The Prophet, peace be upon him, said that this will happen when the people stop forbidding evil) (Ibn Majah)
· The nations of the earth will gather against the Muslims like hungry people going to sit down to a table full of food. This will occur when the Muslims are large in number, but "like the foam of the sea".
· The people of Iraq will receive no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans (Europeans) (Muslim) [could be referring to the 12 year economic sanctions?]
· People will hop between the clouds and the earth [Now, how could they possibly even remotely conceive of airplanes back then???]
· The leader of a people will be the worst of them (at-Tirmidhi)
· Time will pass rapidly (Bukhari, Muslim, & Ahmad)
· Earthquakes will increase (Bukhari & Muslim)
· There will be attempts to make the deserts green
· Arrogance will increase in the earth (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
· Among my ummah there will certainly be people who will permit zina, silk, alcohol...
[These are only a few of the many signs before the day of Judgment]

Prophet Muhammad didn't know the future, that is for sure :

6:50 Say: I do not say to you that I possess the treasures of God, nor do I know the future, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I
merely follow what is inspired to me. Say: Are the blind and the seer the same? Do you not think?

7:188 Say: I do not possess for myself any benefit or harm, except what God wills. And if I could know the future, then I would have
increased my good fortune, and no harm would have come to me. I am but a warner and a bearer of good news to a people who believe.

81:22-24 And your friend is not crazy. And he saw him by the clear horizon. And he has no knowledge of the future.

46:9 Say: I am no different from the other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is inspired
to me. I am no more than a clear warner

Then the question left , what about the future predictions in those Ahadith . There are/were so many fortune telling people/concept in this world , e.g., Nostrodamus, Revelations, Hopi, etc. How do you judge them ?

Most of the predictions about the turmoil of Muslim Ummah started already the very time Hadith were written in 9th-11th Century . Hence nothing wonder about them .

Moreover Prophet had enemies from the human and as well as from jinn who helped to make Hadith in fancy manner so that people would get amazed . In the following verse ALLAH (swt) warned us about that :

6:112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet' mankind and Jinn devils ' to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

egcroc · Oct 4, 2013

just this morning I was reading about the ancient library of Alexandria and how it was destroyed, apparently there are several different historic narrations for it's destruction, one of them is about Muslim conquerors lead by Amr Ibn Al-As burning it by orders from the caliph Omar...

it's not like I believe or dismiss that accusation, but what really interested me about the main counter-argument brought by muslim apologists against it was that the historical records about Amr burning it were written many centuries after the muslim conquest... those are the same people who believe in the Hadith BTW :facepalm:

and the mike goes back to you Union!!!

Union · Oct 5, 2013

egcroc said:
just this morning I was reading about the ancient library of Alexandria and how it was destroyed, apparently there are several different historic narrations for it's destruction, one of them is about Muslim conquerors lead by Amr Ibn Al-As burning it by orders from the caliph Omar...

it's not like I believe or dismiss that accusation, but what really interested me about the main counter-argument brought by muslim apologists against it was that the historical records about Amr burning it were written many centuries after the muslim conquest... those are the same people who believe in the Hadith BTW

and the mike goes back to you Union!!!

Thanks for the mike . Let me start rock n roll....

Union · Oct 5, 2013

Response Part 5: Evidence from the Qur'an that Hadith are an established part of the message:

Now Take evidence from the Qur'an (which you claim to follow so perfectly):

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). (The Noble Qur'an 4:80)

Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him."(The Noble Qur'an 53:2-4)

When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you. 003.081

O Messenger! Let not them grieve thee who vie one with another in the race to disbelief, of such as say with their mouths: "We believe," but their hearts believe not, and of the Jews: listeners for the sake of falsehood, listeners on behalf of other folk who come not unto thee, changing words from their context and saying: If this be given unto you, receive it, but if this be not given unto you, then beware! He whom Allah doometh unto sin, thou (by thine efforts) wilt avail him naught against Allah. Those are they for whom the Will of Allah is that He cleanse not their hearts. Theirs in the world will be ignominy, and in the Hereafter an awful doom; 005.041

If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge! 004.115

Whoso is wont to think (through envy) that Allah will not give him (Muhammad) victory in the world and the Hereafter (and is enraged at the thought of his victory), let him stretch a rope up to the roof (of his dwelling), and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispelleth that whereat he rageth!. 022.015

We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear: 036.069

"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures), - in the law and the Gospel; - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." 007.157
[Notice here that it says those who follow the Messenger, it is NOT saying those who follow the Quran (only). When it says He commands for themHe allows for themand prohibits them fromHe releases them from All of these are referring to the prophet Muhammad SAWS. believe in him, honour him, help him, AND follow the light (the Quran) which is sent down WITH him]

And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. 004.064

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. 004.059

And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they! 004.069

Those are limits set by Allah: those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement. 004.013
[You must notice that for all of these verses, it says Allah AND his Messenger - Now think, why would so many verses of the Quran stress this point??? Why did it not just say obey Allah (only)?? Therefore the Quran is indicating two sources of information and authority the word of Allah (the Quran) and prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sellem.]
{There are still many more verses of the Quran that say to obey Allah and his Messenger, they are too many to list all here, so I will just list some of the other verses by number: 3.32, 3.132, 5.92, 8.1, 8.20, 8.46, 9.71, 24.47, 24.51, 24.52, 24.54, 33.33, 33.66, 33.71, 47.33, 48.17, 49.7, 49.14, 58.13, 64.12}

O Ye who believe! Put not yourselves forward before Allah and His Messenger; but fear Allah: for Allah is He Who hears and knows all things. O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not. 049.002

When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, " they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?" 002.091

You failed to show a single verse which says 'follow the Hadith of Prophet Muhammad ' . You also failed to show 'follow Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad' . If Hadith and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad were really the foundation of Islam , it is absurd to imagine that ALLAH (swt) would ignore them in Qur'an .

Whatsoever , all those verses you mentioned can be summed up in one phrase ' Obey GOD and Obey the Messenger' . Here is the explanation for this :

Though both of the Arabic words Hadith and Sunnah can be found in the Quran , but not for a single time Almighty ALLAH had related them with Prophet Muhammad . It is redundant to even Imagine that if Sunnah/Hadith could be the second source of Islam , Almighty ALLAH just kept quite about them . Overwhelmingly Almighty GOD announced that the Quran described details for anything a Mumin needs to know to achieve certainty about Islam but didnt care to mention about Prophets Hadiths or Sunnah .

Whatsoever , the quest of sectarian Muslims to relate verses to Prophets Sunnah is a desperation . Among them Obey GOD and obey the messenger is the most famous . A little unbiased thinking can clarify what that verse wants to predict .

01. Messenger = Who deliver the message
=> Obey the messenger = Obey the message he delivered .

And we know very well that Prophet Muhammad (p) was sent to deliver GODs message the Quran , nothing else .

[005:092] Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and beware! But if ye turn away, then know that the duty of Our messenger is only plain conveyance (of the message).

[064:012] Obey Allah and obey His messenger; but if ye turn away, then the duty of Our messenger is only to convey (the message) plainly.

[005:067] O Apostle! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

[005:099] The duty of the messenger is only to convey (the message). Allah knoweth what ye proclaim and what ye hide.

Therefore , Obey the messenger = Obey the Quran .

02. Why not for a single time All-knowing ALLAH did reveal Obey GOD and obey Muhammad but HE did reveal Obey GOD and obey the messenger more than 25 times ? Was it a coincidence? No, not at all .All-knowing GODs deliberate word choosing in the Quran always lead us to the right path . Muhammad , the human was not extraordinary . Like any average human he did make mistakes and slipped away in many occasions . Muhammad without the message is just a regular human being, he frowned and turned away when the blind poor man came to him, (See 80:1-11), he feared the people when he was supposed to fear only God, (See 33:37), and he prohibited what he should not prohibit, (See 66:1)

That is why there has never been a single order in the Quran from God,the Most Cognizant to "Obey Muhammad." If we were to obey Muhammad the human being,(not the messenger), we were to frown at the poor, fear the people instead of God and prohibit what God did not. We are required to obey the messenger, because it is the message (QURAN) that made the obedience a requirement, not the person, Muhammad, that made it a requirement. If Sunnah of Human Muhammad is obligatory for us , we surely have been commanded by Almighty by the expression Obey GOD and Muhammad . It is very interesting to observe that even the wives of the Prophet were not instructed to obey the Husband Muhammad but were instructed gravely to obey Messenger Muhammad in verse 33:30-31 .

Also consider the following verses as the evidence for what we have discussed :

[018:110] Say, Surely, I am just a man like you. Revelation has been sent to me that your God is only one God! Hence, those hoping to meet their Lord should seek the righteous acts, and should not accept any partners in the worship of their Lord!

[093:007] He found you unguided, and guided you!

[042:052] And thus did We reveal to you an inspired book by Our command. You did not know what the Book was, nor (what) the faith (was), but We made it a light, guiding thereby whom We please of Our servants; and most surely you show the way to the right path:

Cont..

Union · Oct 5, 2013

03. Another misunderstanding encircled around the phrase Obey GOD and obey the messenger is that they are two different entities : 01) Obey GOD which is Quran & 02) Obey the messenger which is the Sunnah . But such is not the case . This phrase expresses a single unit of instructions through an inseparable obedience . Almighty GOD clarified :

[004:080] He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you as a watcher over them.

Also please ponder on the following verses whereas GOD and the messenger are being expressed as the single entity in action and in obedience in return :

[009:001] Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

If Allah releases the believers from the treaty, the Messenger automatically does too.

[002:279] And if ye do not, then be warned of war (against you) from Allah and His messenger. And if ye repent, then ye have your principal (without interest). Wrong not, and ye shall not be wronged.

Notice, the war is from Allah as well as the Messenger, although it is waged physically by the Messenger.

[003:172] As for those who heard the call of Allah and His messenger after the harm befell them (in the fight); for such of them as do right and ward off (evil), there is great reward.

Again, the same concept above.

[004:100] Anyone who emigrates in the cause of GOD will find on earth great bounties and richness. Anyone who gives up his home, emigrating to GOD and His messenger, then death catches up with him, his recompense is reserved with GOD. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

"[059:008] (And there is also a share in this booty) for the poor emigrants, who were expelled from their homes and their property, seeking Bounties from Allah and to please Him. And helping Allah and His Messenger . Such are indeed the truthful (to what they say);-

In the above verse, how does a person help Allah? Does Allah need any help? No but the People were asked to help the messenger and they did so. Yet, the expression "Allah and His Messenger" is used. This is because they are a single 'entity' to be heeded.

[009:003] And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

The 'proclamation' is made by the Messenger himself to all people, yet it is from "Allah and His Messenger".

[005:033] The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

In the above verse, if one fights the messenger, he automatically 'fights' Allah too. All these verses prove that Allah and His messenger are a single entity to be obeyed.

04. With grave tone Almighty Lord frequently reminded us that the authority of legislation in Islam belongs to HIM ONLY . HE is our Master and all of us , including all the Prophets and messengers are HIS servants . None of us has the upper hand to share/add/supplement laws with the laws of Almighty GOD . This is equally applicable to all the Pr0phets and the messengers .Almighty ALLAH clarifies :

[012:040] You do not serve besides Him but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent down any authority for them; HUKUMAH is only Allah's; He has commanded that you shall not serve aught but Him; this is the right religion but most people do not know:

[018:026] Say: Allah knows best how long they remained; to Him are (known) the unseen things of the heavens and the earth; how clear His sight and how clear His hearing! There is none to be a guardian for them besides Him, and He does not make any one His associate in His HUKUMAH

[006:057] Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I am on clear proof from my Lord (Islamic Monotheism), but you deny (the truth that has come to me from Allah). I have not gotten what you are asking for impatiently (the torment). The HUKUM is only for Allah, He declares the truth, and He is the Best of judges."

That is the very reason Almighty ALLAH didnt assign any authority to Prophet Muhammad for making laws for the Muslims , rather HE instructed the Prophet to follow the Quran and to rule the people according to the legislation as found in the Quran :

[006:050] Say: "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of God, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me." Say: "can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" Will ye then consider not?

[007:203] If thou bring them not a revelation, they say: "Why hast thou not got it together?" Say: "I but follow what is revealed to me from my Lord: this is (nothing but) lights from your Lord, and Guidance, and mercy, for any who have faith."

[010:015] And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say: It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.

[046:009] Say: I am not the first of the apostles, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.

[005:048] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

[005:049] And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.

Now if Prophet Muhammad himself was obliged to follow the Quran ONLY , then what the expression Obey the Messenger should imply to ?

Obey the Messenger = Obey the message he delivered = Obey the Laws he followed = Obey the Quran

Union · Oct 5, 2013

Response to Part 6: Evidence from the Qur'an that topples Quranists "two prayer a day" theory:

Now, I will present evidence from the Qur'an that topples your "two prayer a day" theory - your bid'ah (invention) that there are only two prayers instead of five!!!?? You have argued (Articles | Islam based on God alone, Quran alone) many outrageous claims that I have never ever heard of before. Lets address one at a time:

You have also claimed that these two prayers should be said at the exact timing of the rising of the sun and the setting of the sun (which is something that the prophet Muhammad SAWS specifically prohibited at those time durations b/c of the people that used to worship the sun at those times). It normally takes approx 15 minutes for the sun to arise over the horizon, and similarly to set, so those are the times that we should avoid praying, but this is what you have written: {"The recitation is to last for the length of time it takes for the period to change which is normally 10-15 minutes (i.e. dawn becomes morning, and dusk becomes night)."}

Your words that the "two" prayers: "are fundamentally linked to the movement of the sun and the cross-over of day and night, thus eliminating any hardship or difficulty..." -You are basically saying that there is only the Fajr and Isha prayers (you did mention those two specifically- even though you did change the timings for them), and that there are no specified prayers during the daytime itself; well let me prove you wrong, from the Qur'an:

030.017
YUSUFALI: So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning;
PICKTHAL: So glory be to Allah when ye enter the night and when ye enter the morning -
SHAKIR: Therefore glory be to Allah when you enter upon the time of the evening and when you enter upon the time of the morning.
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030.018 [This Ayah clearly addresses the midday prayers Zuhr and Asr]
YUSUFALI: Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.
PICKTHAL: Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.
SHAKIR: And to Him belongs praise in the heavens and the earth, and at nightfall and when you are at midday.
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002.238 [Ayah about the Asr prayer] {This topples your theory once and for all - if there are only "two prayers," then how can there possibly be a middle prayer???}

YUSUFALI: Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).
PICKTHAL: Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to Allah.
SHAKIR: Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah.
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002.239
YUSUFALI: If ye fear (an enemy), pray on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).
PICKTHAL: And if ye go in fear, then (pray) standing or on horseback. And when ye are again in safety, remember Allah, as He hath taught you that which (heretofore) ye knew not.
SHAKIR: But if you are in danger, then (say your prayers) on foot or on horseback; and when you are secure, then remember Allah, as He has taught you what you did not know.
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062.009 [Clearly there IS a weekly day of congregation, and the prayer IS during the daytime, because it mentions leaving business, and as another Ayah (073.007) confirms that the day time is for business.]
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic): That is best for you if ye but knew!
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! When the call is heard for the prayer of the day of congregation, haste unto remembrance of Allah and leave your trading. That is better for you if ye did but know.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! when the call is made for prayer on Friday, then hasten to the remembrance of Allah and leave off trading; that is better for you, if you know.
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062.010 [Again, a confirmation that the prayer takes place during broad daylight during business hours, obviously not before the sunrise (fajr), and not after dark (Isha).]
YUSUFALI: And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah: and celebrate the Praises of Allah often (and without stint): that ye may prosper.
PICKTHAL: And when the prayer is ended, then disperse in the land and seek of Allah's bounty, and remember Allah much, that ye may be successful.
SHAKIR: But when the prayer is ended, then disperse abroad in the land and seek of Allah's grace, and remember Allah much, that you may be successful.
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062.011
YUSUFALI: But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it, and leave thee standing. Say: "The (blessing) from the Presence of Allah is better than any amusement or bargain! and Allah is the Best to provide (for all needs)."
PICKTHAL: But when they spy some merchandise or pastime they break away to it and leave thee standing. Say: That which Allah hath is better than pastime and than merchandise, and Allah is the Best of providers.
SHAKIR: And when they see merchandise or sport they break up for It, and leave you standing. Say: What is with Allah is better than sport and (better) than merchandise, and Allah is the best of Sustainers.
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073.006 [This Ayah reveals why the waking for Fajr and night prayers are so important and mentioned so much throughout the Qur'an, but it does not mean that they are the only prescribed prayers!!! In addition, the hadith mentions that if the believers knew the value of Fajr and Isha prayers that they would go crawling to the mosques.]
YUSUFALI: Truly the rising by night is most potent for governing (the soul), and most suitable for (framing) the Word (of Prayer and Praise).
PICKTHAL: Lo! the vigil of the night is (a time) when impression is more keen and speech more certain.
SHAKIR: Surely the rising by night is the firmest way to tread and the best corrective of speech.
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073.007
YUSUFALI: True, there is for thee by day prolonged occupation with ordinary duties:
PICKTHAL: Lo! thou hast by day a chain of business.
SHAKIR: Surely you have in the day time a long occupation.
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073.008
YUSUFALI: But keep in remembrance the name of thy Lord and devote thyself to Him whole-heartedly.
PICKTHAL: So remember the name of thy Lord and devote thyself with a complete devotion -
SHAKIR: And remember the name of your Lord and devote yourself to Him with (exclusive) devotion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
073.009
YUSUFALI: (He is) Lord of the East and the West: there is no god but He: take Him therefore for (thy) Disposer of Affairs.
PICKTHAL: Lord of the East and the West; there is no Allah save Him; so choose thou Him alone for thy defender -
SHAKIR: The Lord of the East and the West-- there is no god but He-- therefore take Him for a protector.
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004.103
YUSUFALI: When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.
PICKTHAL: When ye have performed the act of worship, remember Allah, standing, sitting and reclining. And when ye are in safety, observe proper worship. Worship at fixed times hath been enjoined on the believers.
SHAKIR: Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.

All those verses you brought has nothing to do with Salah (Prayer) . The word Salah is not mentioned there , hence there is no proof of five times Salah . And regarding Wusta Salah in verse 2.238 along with other details refer to post#05 of this thread .

illykitty · Oct 5, 2013

I really love your thread, it is very informative and hopefully people come read it with open minds. Keep up the good work!

dynavert2012 · Oct 5, 2013

i just go quickly throw that thread and couldn't finish it yet, but let me greet you for your sincerity to what you believe in. here are some few comments that i tried as much as i can not to raise a debate but just questioning

Union said:
?How do you know how to pray using the Quran alone?

01. Name and Number of Salats :

There are three numbers of Salat mentioned by name in the Quran . These are :

(a) Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)[24:58]
(b)Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer)[24:58]
(c)Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) [2:238]

i read that there's another branch of quranists who pray5 and others are pray only two, do you know where from this difference came from although it's only one source book?

also i'd like to know how do you understand that all Muslims approximately pray 5 prayers a day while they should do three only, so when they increased those two additional prayers? when Bukhari and Muslim appeared? i'm sure they were praying five before they came or something would be recorded that Muslims had changed their prayers from 3 to 5 based on a certain hadith?

Union said:
04. Direction of Prayer :

Any direction. [2:177 ]

i have an explanation for that verse but i'd like to hear your explanation for those verses
The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path." 2:142, "We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do." 2:144, "And from wherever you go out [for prayer], turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] may be, turn your faces toward it in order that the people will not have any argument against you, except for those of them who commit wrong; so fear them not but fear Me. And [it is] so I may complete My favor upon you and that you may be guided." 2:150

Union said:
06. Number of Rak’ats :

In congregation the leader must keep keen eyes on the average physical and mental strengths of the Muttadi [20:2,78]

from where you understood that in case of congregation there should be a leader?

Union said:
?Hadn't the Quran been reached to us from the same sources we received our authentic hadith?

Hadiths were compiled and passed to us by some non-witness , third hand persons who did never see Prophet Muhammad nor listened to a single word from his mouth . Even none of the Hadith writer got those teachings from any of the companions of the Prophet . These supposed sayings and acts of Prophet were transmitted orally over 200+ years latter than the Prophet and his companions which better be defined as myths , fables and legends , according to the ‘science of history’ . Not a single companion of the Prophet among thousands left a single hadith for their next generation .

there's a lot to be said here but it would raise a debate, so let's avoid talking about it right now

Union said:
?The Quran says that men could beat up their wives. But we know according to hadith that this is a spiritual beating and not a harmful physical. What is to stop a man from misinterpreting the Quran and beating the hell out of his wife?

The simple answer is there no 'wife-beating' in Qur'an , hence Qur'an didn't give any chance to husband to choose tooth-brush(Mishak) or baseball bat to beat his wife .

The vesrse in question is 4.34 and the key Arabic word is 'Duroob' .

[004:034] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) idriboo them ; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, great (above you all).

The right meaning of 'adraboo' is leave/forsake which has a strong support from the Qur'an itself . The same chapter used the same root in verse 94 and verse 101:

4:94 ياايها الذين امنوا اذا ضربتم في سبيل الله فتبينوا ولاتقولوا لمن القى اليكم السلام لست مؤمنا تبتغون عرض الحياة الدنيا فعند الله مغانم كثيرة كذلك كنتم من قبل فمن الله عليكم فتبينوا ان الله كان بما تعملون خبيرا

[004:094] O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of God, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with God are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till God conferred on you His favours: Therefore carefully investigate. For God is well aware of all that ye do.

4:101 واذا ضربتم في الارض فليس عليكم جناح ان تقصروا من الصلاة ان خفتم ان يفتنكم الذين كفروا ان الكافرين كانوا لكم عدوا مبينا

[004:101] And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

i think you are not an Arab and it's clear that you are not aware by the Arabic words meaning, let me explain something to you the verb darab has different meanings, the most common two are to hit or beat and the second is what you mentioned "to move"
Ù…Ø¹Ù†Ù‰ ÙƒÙ„Ù…Ø© Ø¶Ø±Ø¨ ÙÙŠ Ù‚Ø§Ù…ÙˆØ³ Ø§Ù„Ù…Ø¹Ø§Ù†ÙŠ. Ù‚Ø§Ù…ÙˆØ³ Ø¹Ø±Ø¨ÙŠ Ø§Ù†Ø¬Ù„ÙŠØ²ÙŠ Ù…ØµØ·Ù„Ø*Ø§Øª ØµÙØ*Ø© 1
the example of the first meaning what in chapter 2:73 So, We said, "Strike "idrbouh" the slain man with part of it." Thus does Allah bring the dead to life, and He shows you His signs that you might reason.
فقلنا اضربوه ببعضها كذلك يحي الله الموتي و يريكم اياته لعلكم تعقلون
so how to distinguish the meaning of is it move or strike, through what came after the verb "idrab" if it's a noun or what equivalent to a noun so the meaning would be strike, if it's followed by a Preposition like for , to or in, it would mean move
if you rethink about the examples you mentioned you will find that my speech is fully complied with that illustration, the two verses you mentioned [004:094] & [004:101] you will find the verb idrab is followed by a prepostion character in "في" while in 2:73 & 4:34 the verb was followed by a noun or what equals noun "them and man" and so the meaning will be to strike or beat and so you will need the sunna to explain to you how a man will hit his wife

Union said:
?Is it permissible for a man to look at a naked man?

Almighty GOD had given us the garments for the following purposes :

[7:26]“O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.”

Hence being naked is against the will of ALLAH (swt) , ofcourse for show-off intention and without necessity . Hence its evil and against modesty , being it a woman or a man .

is there any limitaions for a non covered parts
also there's a wrong translation of the verse the word shame isn't mentioned in the verse, it's "sau'ah" which has no equal in English language

Union said:
?Does the Quran say that cross dressing is haram?

As mentioned before the main purpose of the garments , according to Qur'an , is to cover our shames and to act modest .

[7:26]“O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.”

Hence this prime purpose of the dressing should be mate - whether a man wears a woman's dress or vice versa .

There is no absolute definition of men dressing and women dressing in human race . Different race adopts different pattern of dressing . A saudi men dress can be used for a woman dress without violating the commandment of GOD in Qur'an .

not related directly but while talking about garments, could Muslim wear a T-shirt with the Christian cross? could a man wear gold?

Union said:
?How do we know the order of the alcohol revelations? Maybe the first of the Quranic revelations said it was haram and then the later ones came saying that is was okay except during prayer times. How do you know the order of its revelations by using the Quran alone?

The order pertaining the alcohol are all in sequence and therefore there need no external source to comprehend them .*

do you believe that the quran chapters are arranged according to it's date of revelation?*

I’m sorry I couldn’t fully read it as my eyes are tearing from staying on PC for a long time

Union · Oct 6, 2013

illykitty said:
I really love your thread, it is very informative and hopefully people come read it with open minds. Keep up the good work!

Thanks a lot illykitty . I am really feeling rewarded for you kind comment :yes:

Union · Oct 6, 2013

dynavert2012 said:
i just go quickly throw that thread and couldn't finish it yet, but let me greet you for your sincerity to what you believe in. here are some few comments that i tried as much as i can not to raise a debate but just questioning

Salaam and thanks . No worries . Questions and discussions are most welcome , not debate .Also sorry to reply you late . I was in a long drive in this week-end .

i read that there's another branch of quranists who pray5 and others are pray only two, do you know where from this difference came from although it's only one source book?

also i'd like to know how do you understand that all Muslims approximately pray 5 prayers a day while they should do three only, so when they increased those two additional prayers? when Bukhari and Muslim appeared? i'm sure they were praying five before they came or something would be recorded that Muslims had changed their prayers from 3 to 5 based on a certain hadith?

Whomever claims to be Quran-only , doesn't make him a Quran aloner unless s/he is able prove his/her point clearly from the Quran . The 05 times Salah theory established by Dr. RK is based on numerology and not Quran . See what their official website admitted :

Witnessing the Preservation of our Contact Prayers | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)
The way we observe the Contact Prayers has been guarded and preserved by God even though He didn't state all details in Quran.

This instantly cancel them from the list of Quran-only Muslims as they deny the very core concept of Quran that it detailed in any aspect of Islam .
See their numerical deduction of 24434 to establish 05 times Salah .

Also to add another issue which establish their absurdity that Zakat should be paid 2.5% , which is also absent in Quran . They have said about this :

Zakah; the Obligatory Charity | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

Those poor people who may not have any income at one point, will get income from Zakat and from their Zakat they are obligated to give 2.5% from this income to another poor person.

Everybody knows that 2.5% Zakat is mentioned in Hadith and not in Qur'an .

Now 02 times prayer is the right one as ALLAH (swt) ordained 02 prayers in Quran , e.g., Isha and Fajr Salah . Those are the daily prayers. While the other Wusta prayer is performed only in day of congregation and not daily . That is the same thing I tried to explain in my that post .

05 times Salah created after the creation of the hilarious story of Isra/Miraj of Prophet Muhammad. It was just another attempt of Hadith propagator to divert people from the real Islam which is only found in Quran . Not to support the two Salah theory , as Quran alone is sufficient , you may find it interesting that Ibn Kathir admitted that before the Isra Prophet used to pray two Salah , e.g., Fajr and Isha Salawat . Please read below :

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1725&Itemid=106
(and glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.) There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey. One before the rising of the sun at dawn and the other before sunset in the evening. Qiyam Al-Layl, prayer at night, was a command for the Prophet and his followers for sometime but it was later abrogated for the Ummah. Later, during the Isra' journey, Allah abrogated all of the previous orders for prayer by ordaining five daily prayers, including the prayers of Fajr before sunrise, and `Asr in the late afternoon. Imam Ahmad recorded that Jarir bin `Abdullah said, "When we were sitting with the Prophet , he looked at the full moon and said,

«أَمَا إِنَّكُمْ سَتُعْرَضُونَ عَلَى رَبِّكُمْ فَتَرَوْنَهُ كَمَا تَرَوْنَ هذَا الْقَمَرَ لَا تُضَامُّونَ فِيهِ، فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَنْ لَا تُغْلَبُوا عَلَى صَلَاةٍ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا فَافْعَلُوا»

(Certainly you will be brought before your Lord and will see Him as you see this moon, and you will have no trouble in seeing Him. So, if you can avoid missing the prayer before the sunrise and the prayer before sunset, you must do so.) He then recited Allah's statement,

﴿وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ﴾

(and glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.)''' The Two Sahihs and the rest of the Group collected this Hadith through the chain of Isma`il. Allah the Exalted said,

﴿وَمِنَ الَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْهُ﴾

(And during a part of the night glorify His praises), meaning pray to Him. Allah said Ayah,

﴿وَمِنَ الَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَاماً مَّحْمُودًا ﴾

(And in some parts of the night offer the Salah with it, as an additional prayer for you. It may be that your Lord will raise you to Maqam Mahmud.) (17:79) Ibn Abi Najih reported that Mujahid said that Ibn `Abbas said that,

﴿وَأَدْبَـرَ السُّجُودِ﴾

(and after the prostrations.) refers to Tasbih, i.e. glorifying Allah's praises, after the prayers. There is a Hadith collected in the Two Sahihs that supports this meaning. Abu Hurayrah said, "Some poor migrants came and said, `O Allah's Messenger! The wealthy people will get higher grades and will have permanent enjoyment. ' The Prophet said,

«وَمَا ذَاكَ؟»

(Why is that) They said, `They pray as we do, fast as we do, yet they give charity, but we can not. They free slaves, but we can not.' The Prophet said,

«أَفَلَا أُعَلِّمُكُمْ شَيْئًا إِذَا فَعَلْتُمُوهُ سَبَقْتُمْ مَنْ بَعْدَكُمْ وَلَا يَكُونُ أَحَدٌ أَفْضَلَ مِنْكُمْ إِلَّا مَنْ فَعَلَ مِثْلَ مَا فَعَلْتُمْ؟ تُسَبِّحُونَ وَتَحْمَدُونَ وَتُكَبِّرُونَ دُبُرَ كُلِّ صَلَاةٍ ثَلَاثًا وَثَلَاثِين»

(Shall I tell you about something that, if you did it, you would catch up with those who have surpassed you and nobody would be better than you except those who would do the same Say, `Subhan Allah, Alhamdulillah and Allahu Akbar,' thirty-three times each after every prayer.) Later, they came back and said, `O Allah's Messenger! Our brethren, the wealthy Muslims, heard of what we did and they also did the same.' The Prophet said,

«ذلِكَ فَضْلُ اللهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَنْ يَشَاء»

(This is a favor and grace of Allah, and He grants it to whom He wills.)'' There is another way of explaining the Ayah. It is that Allah's statement,

﴿وَأَدْبَـرَ السُّجُودِ﴾

(and after the prostrations.) refers to the two Rak`ahs after the Maghrib prayer. This was reported from `Umar bin Al-Khattab, `Ali bin Abi Talib and his son Al-Hasan, `Abdullah bin `Abbas, Abu Hurayrah and Abu Umamah, may Allah be pleased with them. This is also the saying of Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Ash-Sha`bi, An-Nakha`i, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Qatadah, and others.

Cont...

Union · Oct 6, 2013

i have an explanation for that verse but i'd like to hear your explanation for those verses
The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path." 2:142, "We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do." 2:144, "And from wherever you go out [for prayer], turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] may be, turn your faces toward it in order that the people will not have any argument against you, except for those of them who commit wrong; so fear them not but fear Me. And [it is] so I may complete My favor upon you and that you may be guided." 2:150

Salah is not even remotely related with those verses . All translators used [during the prayer] in bracket .

from where you understood that in case of congregation there should be a leader?

Sorry , there was a typo . The reference of verse would be 20:2 and 22:78 , which emphasis that the practice of religion should be as comfortable as to an indusial can bear . Having saying that I wanted to mean in congregational prayer the leader must look at the ability of the weakest persons attending the Salah so that the Salah may not become a burden for them .
Nevertheless the prayer under a leader is proven from verse 4.102 .

there's a lot to be said here but it would raise a debate, so let's avoid talking about it right now .

You can open a thread in debate section and PM me there . I would gladly join there .

i think you are not an Arab and it's clear that you are not aware by the Arabic words meaning, let me explain something to you the verb darab has different meanings, the most common two are to hit or beat and the second is what you mentioned "to move"
ÙØ¹ÙÙ ÙÙÙØ© Ø¶Ø±Ø¨ ÙÙ ÙØ§ÙÙØ³ Ø§ÙÙØ¹Ø§ÙÙ. ÙØ§ÙÙØ³ Ø¹Ø±Ø¨Ù Ø§ÙØ¬ÙÙØ²Ù ÙØµØ·ÙØ*Ø§Øª ØµÙØ*Ø© 1
the example of the first meaning what in chapter 2:73 So, We said, "Strike "idrbouh" the slain man with part of it." Thus does Allah bring the dead to life, and He shows you His signs that you might reason.
فقلنا اضربوه ببعضها كذلك يحي الله الموتي و يريكم اياته لعلكم تعقلون
so how to distinguish the meaning of is it move or strike, through what came after the verb "idrab" if it's a noun or what equivalent to a noun so the meaning would be strike, if it's followed by a Preposition like for , to or in, it would mean move
if you rethink about the examples you mentioned you will find that my speech is fully complied with that illustration, the two verses you mentioned [004:094] & [004:101] you will find the verb idrab is followed by a prepostion character in "في" while in 2:73 & 4:34 the verb was followed by a noun or what equals noun "them and man" and so the meaning will be to strike or beat and so you will need the sunna to explain to you how a man will hit his wife .

Abu Jahel , Abu Lahab etc. were all Arab still they failed to grasp the message of Quran . All the Syrians , Egyptians , Iraqis , Yeminis etc. are Arabs still the failing to grasp the message the Quran and killing their own brothers and sisters everyday . Nothing to offend you as you are an Egyptian , but to tell you that to have understanding of Quran the issue is not not limited to language rather on the sincerity .

Whatsoever, yes I am not Arab (And I am happy about it

) , but I know Arabic from my childhood . I have been in Arab countries for a along time , hence I know Arabic . On the top my personal effort of leaning the Arabic of Quran is one of my everlasting quest.

Coming back to the point , as you agreed that major the meanings of darb are :

01-to beat/to strike
02-to move/to leave

Before moving to the grammatical discussion , the common sense will tell that a husband cant take the law in his hand by beating his wife . The next verse propose an arbitrator from both spouse who may can resolve their problem :

[004:035] And if ye fear a breach between the husband and wife, send a judge out of his family, and a judge out of her family: If they shall desire a reconciliation, God will cause them to agree; for God is knowing and wise.

Now if the husband starts to beat his wife , what is the point for reconciliation through arbitrator ? Can a beaten wife ever desire to reconcile with her husband ?

Second point , numerous verses in Quran suggest to be kind and merciful to the wives . If beating is allowed then where are those kindness and mercy for the wife ?

[004:019] O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.

Thirdly , The following verse defined cruelty or harshness of a husaband ( beating wife must be one of the example of this kind) as a shortcoming and hence not a decree of GOD , whatsoever the situation it might be .

[004:128] If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

Lastly , in principle Quran always guide the mankind to the best ever solution . Ask any sister , which one they think the best possible meaning that they can expect from All Merciful GOD in 4.34 beating them up or moving them forward to the custody of their family ?

[017:009] Verily this Quran doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;

Now let us deal with grammatical part of the issue in hand. The verse is as follows:

‏4:34 الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلاتبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

واضربو+هن= Imperative verb (leave/release)+feminine object pronoun(them)= leave/release them.

Is there any grammatical shortcoming in my translation above ? Verb attached with preposition and/or object pronoun has nothing to do with meaning of the verb . Can you bring any grammatical rule from any canonized grammatical reference for what you suggest ?

is there any limitaions for a non covered parts
also there's a wrong translation of the verse the word shame isn't mentioned in the verse, it's "sau'ah" which has no equal in English language

The term Sawat has been best explained by Almighty GOD in the Qur'an . A few of them for you persual :

‏2:187 احل لكم ليلة الصيام الرفث الى نسائكم هن لباس لكم وانتم لباس لهن علم الله انكم كنتم تختانون انفسكم فتاب عليكم وعفا عنكم فالان باشروهن وابتغوا ماكتب الله لكم وكلوا واشربوا حتي يتبين لكم الخيط الابيض من الخيط الاسود من الفجر ثم اتموا الصيام الى الليل ولاتباشروهن وانتم عاكفون في المساجد تلك حدود الله فلا تقربوهاكذلك يبين الله اياته للناس لعلهم يتقون

‏7:20 فوسوس لهما الشيطان ليبدى لهما ماورى عنهما من سواتهما وقال مانهاكما ربكما عن هذه الشجرةالا ان تكونا ملكين او تكونا من الخالدين

‏7:22 فدلاهما بغرور فلما ذاقا الشجرة بدت لهما سواتهما وطفقا يخصفان عليهما من ورق الجنة وناداهما ربهما الم انهكما عن تلكما الشجرة واقل لكما ان الشيطان لكما عدو مبين

‏7:27 يابني ادم لايفتننكم الشيطان كما اخرج ابويكم من الجنة ينزع عنهما لباسهما ليريهما سواتهما انه يراكم هو وقبيله من حيث لاترونهم انا جعلنا الشياطين اولياء للذين لايؤمنون

not related directly but while talking about garments, could Muslim wear a T-shirt with the Christian cross? could a man wear gold?

Yah , no problem .

do you believe that the quran chapters are arranged according to it's date of revelation?*

Im sorry I couldnt fully read it as my eyes are tearing from staying on PC for a long time

Yes . What is the significance of the name of chapter Fatiha <The opening > if it is not the opening chapter of Quran in all respect .

Union · Oct 6, 2013

Supporting beating-wife ends up these evils :

dynavert2012 · Oct 12, 2013

Union said:
Whomever claims to be Quran-only , doesn't make him a Quran aloner unless s/he is able prove his/her point clearly from the Quran . The 05 times Salah theory established by Dr. RK is based on numerology and not Quran . See what their official website admitted :

This instantly cancel them from the list of Quran-only Muslims as they deny the very core concept of Quran that it detailed in any aspect of Islam .
See their numerical deduction of 24434 to establish 05 times Salah .

well, yes you are right he's not Quran only plus his Islam is in doubt, to claim that there's another messenger called Rashad after the prophet

Union said:
Now 02 times prayer is the right one as ALLAH (swt) ordained 02 prayers in Quran , e.g., Isha and Fajr Salah . Those are the daily prayers. While the other Wusta prayer is performed only in day of congregation and not daily . That is the same thing I tried to explain in my that post .

do you mean by the day of congregation, Friday?

Union said:
05 times Salah created after the creation of the hilarious story of Isra/Miraj of Prophet Muhammad. It was just another attempt of Hadith propagator to divert people from the real Islam which is only found in Quran . Not to support the two Salah theory , as Quran alone is sufficient , you may find it interesting that Ibn Kathir admitted that before the Isra Prophet used to pray two Salah , e.g., Fajr and Isha Salawat . Please read below :
Cont...

do you have an information when Muslims created the story of Israa which is mentioned in the quran and consequently the additional prayers ? and what was their intention to add three prayers?

Union said:
Salah is not even remotely related with those verses . All translators used [during the prayer] in bracket .

that's really interesting, so how do you define the word Qibla?

Union said:
Nevertheless the prayer under a leader is proven from verse 4.102

this verse is in the prayer in war not in all prayers, you can't use it as a proof for Imam for regular prayers, it's only in case of war.

Union said:
You can open a thread in debate section and PM me there . I would gladly join there

i dislike debates because it's mostly wasting for time and useless, no need for it, i'm not trying to let you convert just seek information.

Union said:
Abu Jahel

how do you know the name of Abu Jahal he's not mentioned in the Quran?

just joking with you, i know you have different perspective in history
hadith but you misunderstand my speech about being Arab, i'm not saying that it's only Arabs who can understand the Quran, nor saying the best Muslims are Arabs, no the contrary is true, Bukhari, Muslim, termdhi, saladin and qutuz were not Arabs, and i love them
but my point is to understand the quran correctly, you should have some tools, one of them is Language, it's Arabic book at the end, so you should be perfect in Arabic to get not just familiar by some words or basic grammar rules

Union said:
Now if the husband starts to beat his wife , what is the point for reconciliation through arbitrator ? Can a beaten wife ever desire to reconcile with her husband ?
Second point , numerous verses in Quran suggest to be kind and merciful to the wives . If beating is allowed then where are those kindness and mercy for the wife ?

it's not beaten as you think nor as the photos you posted, it's not like that at all, and so it's like hit them by a short SiWAK, you know siwak? it's not in the quran but probably you know it, and so it won't cause any injury or pain, it's like when your 1 year son eats something from the earth, what you do? just hit his hands too little to know that's wrong, and that not means that you are not merciful to your beloved son, it's the same, the purpose of it is just to Rebuke her seriously, that's All, the purpose isn't to drive her to the hospital
and in my opinion as you don't recognize Hadith you have two options, 1- to say it's to move and that's twisting of the word mean ,2- to admit that it's beaten but you will make it open as there's no limitation of the beating in the verse, but hadith clarifies it and you preferred to choose the first option which is more comfortable to you.
and for your info. i know some men who beat their wives seriously "with contradicting to my understanding to quran and sunna" and after that they become good to their wives after some judges interfered

Union said:
Now let us deal with grammatical part of the issue in hand. The verse is as follows:

‏4:34 الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلاتبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

واضربو+هن= Imperative verb (leave/release)+feminine object pronoun(them)= leave/release them.

Is there any grammatical shortcoming in my translation above ? Verb attached with preposition and/or object pronoun has nothing to do with meaning of the verb . Can you bring any grammatical rule from any canonized grammatical reference for what you suggest ?

well the quran itself is my reference
let's exclude this verse from the competition and let's see where the word durb" mentioned in the quran
1- إِنَّ رَبَّكَ يَعْلَمُ أَنَّكَ تَقُومُ أَدْنَى مِن ثُلُثَيِ اللَّيْلِ وَنِصْفَهُ وَثُلُثَهُ وَطَائِفَةٌ مِّنَ الَّذِينَ مَعَكَ وَاللَّهُ يُقَدِّرُ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ عَلِمَ أَن لَّن تُحْصُوهُ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ فَاقْرَؤُوا مَا تَيَسَّرَ مِنَ الْقُرْآنِ عَلِمَ أَن سَيَكُونُ مِنكُم مَّرْضَى وَآخَرُونَ يَضْرِبُونَ فِي الأَرْضِ يَبْتَغُونَ مِن فَضْلِ اللَّهِ وَآخَرُونَ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَاقْرَؤُوا مَا تَيَسَّرَ مِنْهُ وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَقْرِضُوا اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا وَمَا تُقَدِّمُوا لأَنفُسِكُم مِّنْ خَيْرٍ تَجِدُوهُ عِندَ اللَّهِ هُوَ خَيْرًا وَأَعْظَمَ أَجْرًا وَاسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
Indeed, your Lord knows, [O Muhammad], that you stand [in prayer] almost two thirds of the night or half of it or a third of it, and [so do] a group of those with you. And Allah determines [the extent of] the night and the day. He has known that you [Muslims] will not be able to do it and has turned to you in forgiveness, so recite what is easy [for you] of the Qur'an. He has known that there will be among you those who are ill and others traveling throughout the land seeking [something] of the bounty of Allah and others fighting for the cause of Allah . So recite what is easy from it and establish prayer and give zakah and loan Allah a goodly loan. And whatever good you put forward for yourselves - you will find it with Allah . It is better and greater in reward. And seek forgiveness of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

this is the first example chapter 73 last verse, and so you will observe that the word يَضْرِبُونَ is followed by a preposition "في" and so it's translated to the word travelling or moving, and the same in chapter 4 verses :101, 94
but in chapter 2 verse 73, it was followed by object pronoun and so it was translated to strike or hit
this is from the quran, your only source,

Union said:
The term Sawat has been best explained by Almighty GOD in the Qur'an . A few of them for you persual :

sorry but from those verses i can't figure out what is sawat, would you explain more?

Monotheist 101 · Oct 12, 2013

Whomever claims to be ‘Qur’an-only’ , doesn't make him a Qur’an aloner unless s/he is able prove his/her point clearly from the Qur’an . The 05 times Salah theory established by Dr. RK is based on numerology and not Qur’an . See what their official website admitted

I dont believe a word that came out of RK's mouth, The 19 theory does not apply until you remove two verses from the Quran like RK did, he went far enough to say that they had been added later because they dont cater to his 19 theory, later still he claimed to be getting direct revelations among his other claims.. how do you still rely on that person to teach you something about Islam?

illykitty · Oct 13, 2013

Monotheist 101 said:
I dont believe a word that came out of RK's mouth, The 19 theory does not apply until you remove two verses from the Quran like RK did, he went far enough to say that they had been added later because they dont cater to his 19 theory, later still he claimed to be getting direct revelations among his other claims.. how do you still rely on that person to teach you something about Islam?

Why do you think he uses RK to learn Quran only Islam? There's other groups of Quran only Muslims, maybe you're not aware of them... And some just do their own research, without relying on anyone.

He said:

Union said:
Whomever claims to be ‘Qur’an-only’ , doesn't make him a Qur’an aloner unless s/he is able prove his/her point clearly from the Qur’an . The 05 times Salah theory established by Dr. RK is based on numerology and not Qur’an . See what their official website admitted :

This instantly cancel them from the list of Qur’an-only Muslims as they deny the very core concept of Qur’an that it detailed in any aspect of Islam.

Union · Oct 16, 2013

dynavert2012 said:
well, yes you are right he's not Quran only plus his Islam is in doubt, to claim that there's another messenger called Rashad after the prophet

do you mean by the day of congregation, Friday?

do you have an information when Muslims created the story of Israa which is mentioned in the quran and consequently the additional prayers ? and what was their intention to add three prayers?

that's really interesting, so how do you define the word Qibla?

this verse is in the prayer in war not in all prayers, you can't use it as a proof for Imam for regular prayers, it's only in case of war.

i dislike debates because it's mostly wasting for time and useless, no need for it, i'm not trying to let you convert just seek information.

how do you know the name of Abu Jahal he's not mentioned in the Quran?
just joking with you, i know you have different perspective in history
hadith but you misunderstand my speech about being Arab, i'm not saying that it's only Arabs who can understand the Quran, nor saying the best Muslims are Arabs, no the contrary is true, Bukhari, Muslim, termdhi, saladin and qutuz were not Arabs, and i love them
but my point is to understand the quran correctly, you should have some tools, one of them is Language, it's Arabic book at the end, so you should be perfect in Arabic to get not just familiar by some words or basic grammar rules

it's not beaten as you think nor as the photos you posted, it's not like that at all, and so it's like hit them by a short SiWAK, you know siwak? it's not in the quran but probably you know it, and so it won't cause any injury or pain, it's like when your 1 year son eats something from the earth, what you do? just hit his hands too little to know that's wrong, and that not means that you are not merciful to your beloved son, it's the same, the purpose of it is just to Rebuke her seriously, that's All, the purpose isn't to drive her to the hospital
and in my opinion as you don't recognize Hadith you have two options, 1- to say it's to move and that's twisting of the word mean ,2- to admit that it's beaten but you will make it open as there's no limitation of the beating in the verse, but hadith clarifies it and you preferred to choose the first option which is more comfortable to you.
and for your info. i know some men who beat their wives seriously "with contradicting to my understanding to quran and sunna" and after that they become good to their wives after some judges interfered

well the quran itself is my reference
let's exclude this verse from the competition and let's see where the word durb" mentioned in the quran
1- إِنَّ رَبَّكَ يَعْلَمُ أَنَّكَ تَقُومُ أَدْنَى مِن ثُلُثَيِ اللَّيْلِ وَنِصْفَهُ وَثُلُثَهُ وَطَائِفَةٌ مِّنَ الَّذِينَ مَعَكَ وَاللَّهُ يُقَدِّرُ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ عَلِمَ أَن لَّن تُحْصُوهُ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ فَاقْرَؤُوا مَا تَيَسَّرَ مِنَ الْقُرْآنِ عَلِمَ أَن سَيَكُونُ مِنكُم مَّرْضَى وَآخَرُونَ يَضْرِبُونَ فِي الأَرْضِ يَبْتَغُونَ مِن فَضْلِ اللَّهِ وَآخَرُونَ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَاقْرَؤُوا مَا تَيَسَّرَ مِنْهُ وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَقْرِضُوا اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا وَمَا تُقَدِّمُوا لأَنفُسِكُم مِّنْ خَيْرٍ تَجِدُوهُ عِندَ اللَّهِ هُوَ خَيْرًا وَأَعْظَمَ أَجْرًا وَاسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
Indeed, your Lord knows, [O Muhammad], that you stand [in prayer] almost two thirds of the night or half of it or a third of it, and [so do] a group of those with you. And Allah determines [the extent of] the night and the day. He has known that you [Muslims] will not be able to do it and has turned to you in forgiveness, so recite what is easy [for you] of the Qur'an. He has known that there will be among you those who are ill and others traveling throughout the land seeking [something] of the bounty of Allah and others fighting for the cause of Allah . So recite what is easy from it and establish prayer and give zakah and loan Allah a goodly loan. And whatever good you put forward for yourselves - you will find it with Allah . It is better and greater in reward. And seek forgiveness of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

this is the first example chapter 73 last verse, and so you will observe that the word يَضْرِبُونَ is followed by a preposition "في" and so it's translated to the word travelling or moving, and the same in chapter 4 verses :101, 94
but in chapter 2 verse 73, it was followed by object pronoun and so it was translated to strike or hit
this is from the quran, your only source,

sorry but from those verses i can't figure out what is sawat, would you explain more?

Salaam . Three points to clarify , as trying to avoid of debate :

01- Friday issue : 'yawmi aljumuAAati' means day of the congregation , not specifically Friday . But it won't be wrong to do it on Friday as Almighty ALLAH left it open for us .

02- Isra issue : Isra of Muhammad is mentioned in Hadith , created +200 years latter . Hence Hadith writer created that 05 times Salah theory . I have a thread dealing with this , you may find it appealing .

03- Qiblah issue : A concise form what I discussed early in debate section :

01- Those verses are not related with Salah at all . As I told you already that if this is really a part and parcel obligation of Salah , Almighty ALLAH of course could have mentioned that . Almighty ALLAH doesnt run of words nor HE , the Exalted forgets . Hence it is quite redundant to think that Almighty ALLAH did really overlook this issue to relate with Salah though Salah is one of HIS major commandment in the Quran .

02- The verses said that we should turn our faces to the direction of Masjidul Haram from any where we go . The verse expressed this in this way :

..وحيث ماكنتم فولوا وجوهكم شطره. Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction..

Now the expression doesnt restrict this act of following Qiblah for any specific time and/or any specific place . But we know that 05 times Salawat are restricted in the frame of time and space . You cant pray anytime of the day and also the Salah might occupied your 5x1 hours = 5 hours . Rest 24-5= 19 hours you are doing something apart from Salah and station somewhere . According to the command of Almighty GOD , even in those 19 hours apart from the Salah , you should turn your face towards the Masjid-ul-Harm .

Now the ultimate question that arises here that to turn the face towards the Masjidul Harm is impossible from any place we are in any second. Did then GOD , the All-Knowing command us to do something which is impossible to do ? Of course not . The right understanding Wajh (face) in the context of the related verses can clarify the right instruction of GOD , the Exalted, InshALLAH .

You understood the the meaning Wajhu <face > as the physical face of the human body , while Almighty ALLAH gave us the indication to understand the right meaning of Wajh <face> in the context , which is something else . Verse 2.148 says :

2:148 ولكلوجهةهوموليهافاستبقواالخيراتاينماتكونواياتبكمال لهجميعااناللهعلىكل شئقدير

[002:148] And everyone has a goal to which he turns his whole attention. Then vie with one another in good works. Wherever you may be ALLAH will bring you all together. Surely, ALLAH has the power to do all that HE wills.

You can see that the word وجهة should be understood here as goal , aim , idea, direction of thinking , motto etc. Therefore those verses which are telling us to turn our faces towards the Al-Masjid Al-Haram , should be understood according to the presentation of the word وجهة < face> in 2:148 . Hence Almighty ALLAH really wants us to turn our goal or aim towards the Al-Masjid Al-harm . What are we going to achieve by doing this ? Again verse 2.148 explains that by doing this you will be able to do righteous and good works.

Cont....

Union · Oct 16, 2013

This taking us back to the history of the Al-Masjid Al-Harm , when Prophet Abraham and Ishmael built up this sanctuary by the command of Almighty GOD for the Muslims to perform good deeds . These are mentioned frequently in the Quran . few for examples :

[002:125] And (remember that) We designated the House of Worship (built by Ibraheem) to be the resort of peace, and a sanctuary for mankind. So, consider the place where Ibraheem stood to be the (sacred) place to pray. We entrusted Ibraheem and Ismail with the duty of keeping My house (clean and) pure for those who go around it (in a ritual of Tawwaf), those who confine themselves there (to worship in seclusion), and those who bow down and prostrate (before Allah).

[009:028] Oh you believers, (remember)! those who ascribe partners to Allah are really unclean. Therefore, after (the pilgrimage) this year let them not come (anywhere) near the sacred mosque (in Makkah). If you fear poverty, Allah may soon enrich you as He wills. Indeed, Allah is the most Aware, the Wisest.

[009:028] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.

[002:196] And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of God. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear God, and know that God Is strict in punishment.

Hence , the real instruction of Almighty ALLAH is to turn our goal/attention/aim always towards the Al-Masjid Alharm so that we can keep it safe and harmless from the non-believers , perform journey for Hajj , to pray and to stay there for spiritual elevation etc..

Varese 2.142 is talking about the new Qiblah which is 'Siratul Mustqim' (straight path ):

2:142 سيقول السفهاء من الناس ماولاهم عن قبلتهم التي كانوا عليها قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء الىصراط مستقيم

Well before I am going to answer you on what was the prior Qiblah , I need to define you first what is the Siratul Mustaqim . ALLAH , the Exalted defined Siratul Mustaqim in a very simple way :

3:51 ان الله ربي وربكم فاعبدوه هذا صراط مستقيم

[003:051] Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.

Applying this definition of straight path in verse 2:144 , we can now easily understand that the new Qiblah for the Muslim was to worship ALLAH, the Exalted alone . Before that they used to worship too many gods . And that was their former Qiblah , polytheism . In a simple way ,

Old Qiblah = Disbelief in ALLAH as the true GOD
New Qiblah = Belief in ALLAH as the true GOD.

In fact the verse says that complain raised by the fools , as the verse said The fools among the people would say. , then verse 2.13 and verse2.130 explain that those fools were Mushriq , Muniafiq , Jews and Christians . All of them had a common Qiblah and that was disbelief in ALLAH , the Exalted .They registered the complain that the Muslims joined with Prophet Muhammad and started worshiping one GOD , ALLAH . To them that was the new Qiblah .

04- DRB issue : The grammatical exposition you uphold is just your own , hence can't be one way out . I explained it why DRB in verse 4.34 can be move and has no problem grammatically . Moreover I also pointed out several logical reasons from Qur'an itself why move and not to beat is the right translation .

05- Sawat issue : The first verse is relating garments with sex and the rest is relating Sawat with something that people should not exposed . Adam and eve were covering them with the Waraqa of Jannah as their Sawat was exposed . Hope it helps .

Union · Oct 16, 2013

illykitty said:
Why do you think he uses RK to learn Quran only Islam? There's other groups of Quran only Muslims, maybe you're not aware of them... And some just do their own research, without relying on anyone.

He said:

Thanks illykitty to get me right and to rectify M101's wrong conception about me .

dynavert2012 · Oct 16, 2013

let's make this my final post on that thread
first, i'd like to thank you a lot for your time, patience, and the information you gave about your belief.
second, surly i'm not convinced about any of what you said, sorry to say that but this is the fact i can't make it up, and surly it's not your problem to convince me
third, i wonder how you deny the Isra although that there's a compelte chapter called Isra, Chapter# 17, i'm not sure if you deny the Isra itself or you deny the Miraag and obligatorily prayers
forth, i'm not here to evaluate you but i see it's highly recommended for you to learn Arabic as i observe that you are mixing between words in a too strange manner like the word DRB, and the face as you mixed between "Wajh" which mean face and wejha which means aim or goal and which is mentioned in verse 2:148, it may look as the same writing but the accents are different and so one is pronounced as wajh "face" in verse 2:144, and wejha in 2:148, also you provide a strange meaning for the yawmi aljumuAAati as the day of Congressional , if it's as you said it would be called the yawmi aljamaati observe the difference and i don't know why you are going to a far meaning of the words although that it's meaning is easy and clear
fifth, i still couldn't understand what's sawat as i don't know what Adam and his wife "i don't where from you got her name was eve" were covering exactly by the waraqa of Janna
sixth, hope you don't take any thing in personal way here, i just was willing to understand how do you think and interpret things

thanks a lot for your time

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