come, let us reason together...

[idea]

... And, it is most often detrimental and pointless to use our emotions to drive our decision making process.

I think the best decisions are made using a combination of both logic and emotion. It seems to be a new trend for some to be scared of their feelings/emotions, to try and hide their feelings, or go against them... being overly emotional/sensitive is bad, but it's also bad to be callous/unfeeling... Feelings are real, they are created by real things, and should be used in our decision making process.

I would encourage people to think rather than jump to erroneous and false conclusions based on their emotions/intuitions.

emotions that are created by hormone imbalances, or from blood sugar imbalances, or not enough sleep etc. etc. can make someone jump to the wrong conclusions - but the feelings that come from your inner core/character/personality/conscience I think are very important to listen to, and can guide you on the right path... you just have to separate the erroneous imbalanced feelings vs. the genuine ones. I think most people can tell the difference if they stop and think about.

 

[A Troubled Man]

I think the best decisions are made using a combination of both logic and emotion. It seems to be a new trend for some to be scared of their feelings/emotions, to try and hide their feelings, or go against them... being overly emotional/sensitive is bad, but it's also bad to be callous/unfeeling... Feelings are real, they are created by real things, and should be used in our decision making process.

Feelings are one thing and deductive reasoning with logic is another and they usually are far removed from one another in the decision making process. Specifically, using emotions does not rely on fact, but instead the false premise of what one may want to believe as fact, which is basically guesswork.

emotions that are created by hormone imbalances, or from blood sugar imbalances, or not enough sleep etc. etc. can make someone jump to the wrong conclusions - but the feelings that come from your inner core/character/personality/conscience I think are very important to listen to, and can guide you on the right path... you just have to separate the erroneous imbalanced feelings vs. the genuine ones. I think most people can tell the difference if they stop and think about.

And yet, when we observe the decisions and beliefs people hold based on feelings and emotions, we see primarily delusion and flaws and every now and again, they get it right due to the odds of guesswork.

 

[idea]

Feelings are one thing and deductive reasoning with logic is another and they usually are far removed from one another in the decision making process. Specifically, using emotions does not rely on fact, but instead the false premise of what one may want to believe as fact, which is basically guesswork.

We often use deductive reason to justify actions created by feelings. Facts don't really exist, there are only approximations that work only some of the time.

Are you familiar with the models of intellectual and ethical development?
William G. Perry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/perry.positions.html#ppt
etc.

Many agree that most people start out with a dualist mindset - relying on facts/authority figures, seeing things in a false black/white, right/wrong dichotomy... as people get older and more mature, they start to realize the ambiguity that is present in most situations - the highest stages are achieved by those who recognize ambiguity, and then make choices based upon personal values/morals/and beliefs. They recognize that truth is relative/contextual, and are therefore able to respect and learn from differing beliefs of others...

in any event - when you step away from dualist thinking, you start recognizing that using your intuition & feelings is a legitimate part in the decision making process.

 

[Penumbra]

why did you decide to hold the beliefs that you do?

neuroscience suggests that:
"human reason is less a tool for figuring out what to do, and more a tool for justifying what we've already decided to do...
http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0307377903

As far as this applies to religious apologetics, perhaps the best missionary tools are not rational debate? that we need to focus on the emotion & intuition aspects of decision making - because most people, most of the time, make decisions based on their emotions/intuition (and then use logic to justify their decision).

On the surface, many shy away from emotional appeals because they at first sound illogical, but I think emotions are based on real things for the most part (we get angry for a real reason, we get happy for a real reason etc. etc.) I think much of our gut feelings may come from the light of Christ / from the Holy Spirit too. Yes, it's good to keep your emotions in check, and not to be overly emotional - but it is also bad to be afraid of your emotions, or to ignore them, hide from them...

In any event, the rationalizations/justifications/apologetic type arguments rarely persuade anyone to change their mind, because perhaps decision making on either side really is based on something more than rationalizations... it seems to be based on what we emotionally/intuitively feel is right - id/ego/superego - the angel and devil on your shoulders, and which you are willing to listen to...

I believe we are all led by the same being, and each have the same spiritual light burning within ourselves. Religious conversion is not something that happens through logical debate, but is a process acknowledging/recognizing/following the Spiritual light which is within us.

I've seen this study, in part because I read marketing materials to learn some of the primary principles of marketing oneself or one's products or services. Anybody who deals with business clients, or owns a business, or does freelancing, or whatever, does well to have at least a passable knowledge of basic marketing.

From what I've gathered in my reading, it's not as though reason plays no part in a decision making process. Rather, it's that emotion is the final trigger, and then reason justifies that trigger. But the emotional trigger typically is in line with what the previous rational state was.

So for example, when ethically marketing a product, it's pretty difficult and less than ethical to get someone to buy something they have no use for. (And I'm talking about fairly complex products, not like a Coca Cola or something.) But by explaining the benefits of the product and if the product is a right fit (so all the rational arguments), the person can know whether the product is right or not. But then when it comes to making a choice, people can put things off, delay, be indecisive, etc. So emotional triggers are helpful for the final push, and then any rationalization later just justifies that purchase.

When I was a kid, and deconverted from the religion I was a part of, it was due to finding the arguments against my positions to be far superior to any arguments in support of my positions. Basically it was a revelation that I was previously just going with emotion and with my ethnocentric status quo, rather than through careful consideration of facts. At the time, my emotions were pulling me in one direction, reason in another. The more facts I learned, the less relevant or true my religion seemed to be.

the question for this thread:

1. How do you connect with your conscience? (meditation, prayer, scripture study, nature hikes, gathering with loved ones, service and charity work). What separates you from your conscience, and how do you fix this? (guilt = separation from conscience, fix this through repentance, and trying to live guilt free by choosing actions that are aligned with our conscience... vs. trying to live guilt free by ignoring/trampling our own conscience)

2. How do you encourage others (who appear to be at odds with their own conscience) to listen to their inner voice, and live according to the dictates of their own conscience?

Conscious meditation and loving-kindness meditation can be helpful, in my experience.

I just think being aware of your actions throughout the day is key. With each action, the only question for me is just, "does this express who I am and who I want to be, right now?"

 

[A Troubled Man]

We often use deductive reason to justify actions created by feelings.

And, often we find the actions created by feelings were wrong based on deductive reasoning.

Facts don't really exist, there are only approximations that work only some of the time.

Complete nonsense. Yes, facts do exist.

Are you familiar with the models of intellectual and ethical development?
William G. Perry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/perry.positions.html#ppt
etc.

Many agree that most people start out with a dualist mindset - relying on facts/authority figures, seeing things in a false black/white, right/wrong dichotomy... as people get older and more mature, they start to realize the ambiguity that is present in most situations - the highest stages are achieved by those who recognize ambiguity, and then make choices based upon personal values/morals/and beliefs. They recognize that truth is relative/contextual, and are therefore able to respect and learn from differing beliefs of others...

in any event - when you step away from dualist thinking, you start recognizing that using your intuition & feelings is a legitimate part in the decision making process.

That is nothing but a strawman argument based on a false premise.

 

[idea]

When I was a kid, and deconverted from the religion I was a part of, it was due to finding the arguments against my positions to be far superior to any arguments in support of my positions. Basically it was a revelation that I was previously just going with emotion and with my ethnocentric status quo, rather than through careful consideration of facts. At the time, my emotions were pulling me in one direction, reason in another. The more facts I learned, the less relevant or true my religion seemed to be.

Are your parents still religious? Do you think their choice was an emotional one? Yea, one of the reasons we do things is through loyalty to parents/friends - the herd mentality instinct - and who is better at keeping the herd together than the "good shepherd"?

I never converted to my parents faith, although I did go with them to their meetings etc. etc. growing up. I'm not sure why I never joined, I guess partly because I was a bit of a rebellious kid? I never really felt like part of the group - or of any group for that matter, I was more of an observer than a participator.. I converted to Mormonism after a spiritual experience there, and due to a deep inner feeling that it was what I was supposed to be doing.

Has anyone ever had that confirmation feeling that nags you into doing something? Does not need to be religious belief - it could be that you feel you need to move to a certain place, or go to a certain school, or make friends with a certain person - you can't quite explain the why of it, but somehow you just know that is what you are supposed to be doing? your conscience feels guilty if you don't do it kind of a thing?

 

[idea]

And, often we find the actions created by feelings were wrong based on deductive reasoning.

Complete nonsense. Yes, facts do exist.

Most questions in life are subjective in nature... what car should I buy? where should I live? what should I major in at school? what movie should I see? what should I eat for dinner? who should I marry? should we have kids or not? most things in life are not right/wrong true/false fact/fiction - you have to go with your gut feeling on most of it, and then learn to be content with going with your feelings.

That is nothing but a strawman argument based on a false premise.

The Perry model is used by universities across the world to design coarse materials and evaluate students... it's not a straw man, it's an accurate portrayal of the progressive steps we take...

 

[Penumbra]

Are your parents still religious? Do you think their choice was an emotional one? Yea, one of the reasons we do things is through loyalty - the herd mentality - and who is better at keeping the herd together than the "good shepherd"?

They're religious in their own ways in different religions.

Their choices seem largely emotional, at least based on my observation of how little they seem to know about other religions. Not that they're fundamentalists or anything- they're open minded, but also not particularly knowledgeable about other religions.

I never converted to my parents faith, although I did go with them to their meetings etc. etc. growing up. I'm not sure why I never joined, I guess party because I was a bit of a rebellious kid? I never really felt like part of the group - or of any group for that matter, I was more of an observer than a participator.. I converted to Mormonism after a spiritual experience there, and due to a deep inner feeling that it was what I was supposed to be doing.

Has anyone ever had that confirmation feeling that nags you into doing something? Does not need to be religious belief - it could be that you feel you need to move to a certain place, or go to a certain school, or make friends with a certain person - you can't quite explain the why of it, but somehow you just know that is what you are supposed to be doing? your conscience feels guilty if you don't do it kind of a thing?

I haven't. Perhaps others have.

 

[idea]

They're religious in their own ways in different religions.

Their choices seem largely emotional, at least based on my observation of how little they seem to know about other religions. Not that they're fundamentalists or anything- they're open minded, but also not particularly knowledgeable about other religions.

Their open mindedness, and religious diversity probably allowed you to explore beliefs without the emotional baggage of wondering how your family would feel if you joined/didn't join xyz - I wish more parents were like that. I'm now a parent, and am trying to be like that with my kids - I'm not religiously diverse, but my family is, so being around grandparents / aunts / cousins etc. etc. opens up a way for them to explore the different beliefs out there.

I haven't. Perhaps others have.

Well, the next time two paths lie before you, and you find yourself wondering which one to go down... I'll encourage you to quietly ponder which one your conscience would have you take, and then be content with your choice that you will travel where you were meant to be...