Commandments by Christ.

[Blackdog22]

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." So said Jesus. Now for those of you who wish to say that it is only the words of Jesus that take pre-eminence, please elucidate for me exactly what are the commandments that Jesus commanded. In His words please.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Matthew 12:31

Keep the law of the land. Romans 13: 1-7

Do not commit adultery, but now you can't even look on a girl with lust either. Matthew 5:28

Honor your father and your mother and, He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death. Matthew 15:4

Follow the old law or be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Too many laws in the old testament to put here, but basically lots of death. Matthew 5:17-19

Sell everything you have and preach his word. Luke 18:18-22

Jesus commands that you hate your father and mother, brother and sister, and even yourself to show that you have to give up everything for Jesus. Luke 14:26-33

He says you cant see the kingdom of God unless you are born again. John 3:3-8

You have to believe that Jesus did what the Bible claims he did. John3:16

Drink his blood and eat his flesh. I am still not entirely sure what this means, but the catholics seem to understand. Everyone else tends to ignore it. John 6:53-54


I think that is about it. Then you get to go to heaven. My question is who actually goes to Heaven? Seems like it would be pretty empty.

To the people saying Jesus is all about peace and no murder. These verses clearly contradict that. If you think Jesus is God at all then he has already murdered more people than even the most barbaric killers of our day. If Revelations is to be believed then he will come back and murder the majority of the world. I see no peace in any of that. Jesus may of been a nice guy who did nice things and commanded "some" nice things, but make no mistake. He agreed with Gods law and what God did in the old testament.

 

[Thief]

Love your neighbor as yourself. Matthew 12:31

Keep the law of the land. Romans 13: 1-7

Do not commit adultery, but now you can't even look on a girl with lust either. Matthew 5:28

Honor your father and your mother and, He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death. Matthew 15:4

Follow the old law or be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Too many laws in the old testament to put here, but basically lots of death. Matthew 5:17-19

Sell everything you have and preach his word. Luke 18:18-22

Jesus commands that you hate your father and mother, brother and sister, and even yourself to show that you have to give up everything for Jesus. Luke 14:26-33

He says you cant see the kingdom of God unless you are born again. John 3:3-8

You have to believe that Jesus did what the Bible claims he did. John3:16

Drink his blood and eat his flesh. I am still not entirely sure what this means, but the catholics seem to understand. Everyone else tends to ignore it. John 6:53-54


I think that is about it. Then you get to go to heaven. My question is who actually goes to Heaven? Seems like it would be pretty empty.

To the people saying Jesus is all about peace and no murder. These verses clearly contradict that. If you think Jesus is God at all then he has already murdered more people than even the most barbaric killers of our day. If Revelations is to be believed then he will come back and murder the majority of the world. I see no peace in any of that. Jesus may of been a nice guy who did nice things and commanded "some" nice things, but make no mistake. He agreed with Gods law and what God did in the old testament.

This was one of the first metaphors He spoke.....and it almost got Him killed.
As soon as He pronounced it...the people took Him from the temple to a high place.
As if to throw Him over the edge.

He turned and walked back through the crowd...'and no man was able to lay hold on Him'.

I know what it takes....that 'no one can lay hold'.

As for the metaphor....
You are what you consume.
What you consume becomes your flesh and your blood.
It becomes your life.

 

[Shermana]

Shermana and Thief.

Does it not boil down to Jesus teaching mercy instead of sacrifice? Hmmm, sounds like a Hebrew Prophet to me.

Thief, are you in such complete obedience to the traditions and laws of the Hebrew scriptures that you can claim to be without sin before God himself? Are you really worthy of demanding an eye for an eye without feeling some level of conviction yourself? I know I'm not and have never met a man or woman who was.

Jesus told the leper he healed to make an offering as Moses commanded.

He said before you make an offering on the altar, make up with your brother and THEN make your offering.

He also clarified what Eye for an eye was supposed to entail. As I said, not even modern Jews go by the strict rigid interpretation the Pharisees were using. It has nothing to do with any guilt you're feeling, this concept of having to be sin free before exacting judgment stems from the spurious "Pericope Adulterae" episode which does not exist in any early manuscript.

Zechariah 14 is quite clear that there will not only be sacrifices in the end days but that if the gentiles don't go to Jerusalem to celebrate Succoth they'll be struck with drought and plagues.

Jesus taught nothing less than full obedience to the Mosaic Law. If he didn't, he wouldn't be the Jewish Messiah.

 

[Thief]

Jesus told the leper he healed to make an offering as Moses commanded.

He said before you make an offering on the altar, make up with your brother and THEN make your offering.

He also clarified what Eye for an eye was supposed to entail. As I said, not even modern Jews go by the strict rigid interpretation the Pharisees were using. It has nothing to do with any guilt you're feeling, this concept of having to be sin free before exacting judgment stems from the spurious "Pericope Adulterae" episode which does not exist in any early manuscript.

Zechariah 14 is quite clear that there will not only be sacrifices in the end days but that if the gentiles don't go to Jerusalem to celebrate Succoth they'll be struck with drought and plagues.

Jesus taught nothing less than full obedience to the Mosaic Law. If he didn't, he wouldn't be the Jewish Messiah.

And who said He was? ....the Pharisees?.....Herod?....... Pilate?
The Carpenter Himself perhaps?

At each mention of a crown the Carpenter would leave.
Even in that last opportunity as the disciples laid their swords on the table....
'Are these enough?'

'That is enough'.....and He got up and left the Upper Room.

 

[Avoice]

Thief will answer with poetry. I shall answer in English, if no one minds
I think he means the law of an eye for an eye will always be present. Remember The Christ did not do away with the law. Thief does not go by that law (I've been reading his posts). Believing lifts one above the law. Love causes one to obey the law, but it is written in hearts now, not remembered in heads. OMG I'd be dead if I needed to remember it all.

Do I really have to post all the places God says through His Prophets "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." ? They are myriad. An eye for an eye perhaps for little things, but the sins for which OT exacted death? I do not feel led to exact that level of vengeance on anyone, tempted once, not led.

 

[savagewind]

Do I really have to post all the places God says through His Prophets "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." ? They are myriad. An eye for an eye perhaps for little things, but the sins for which OT exacted death? I do not feel led to exact that level of vengeance on anyone, tempted once, not led.

No. Uh. For many people an eye for an eye is in effect. In that case it is still present. He and I don't live that way. OK? Sometimes one must read twice before posting.

 

[Blackdog22]

This was one of the first metaphors He spoke.....and it almost got Him killed.
As soon as He pronounced it...the people took Him from the temple to a high place.
As if to throw Him over the edge.

He turned and walked back through the crowd...'and no man was able to lay hold on Him'.

I know what it takes....that 'no one can lay hold'.

As for the metaphor....
You are what you consume.
What you consume becomes your flesh and your blood.
It becomes your life.

Assuming it is a metaphor (which most Christians seem to because the alternative would be disgusting) it is quite a bizarre one to make. When you read the passage it comes across rather disgusting and peculiar. I am not saying its a metaphor or that it isn't. I just know its very, very weird and don't know if anyone can know for sure what Jesus meant by it or if he was a lunatic.

 

[Thief]

Assuming it is a metaphor (which most Christians seem to because the alternative would be disgusting) it is quite a bizarre one to make. When you read the passage it comes across rather disgusting and peculiar. I am not saying its a metaphor or that it isn't. I just know its very, very weird and don't know if anyone can know for sure what Jesus meant by it or if he was a lunatic.

Indeed!....picture the incident.
Someone of the community (the Carpenter) having read from the scripture proceeds to say things that are REALLY different.

And the crowd turns on Him.

In those days blood was more than something....not to lose too much of.
It was a mystery.

Bleed a little and let is dry.
Take the wrapping and work it in your hands....and you get.... dust.

But stand in congregation and speak of it as nourishment?
And go even further as to offer your own body as such?

Yeah.....the people at hand....didn't 'get it'.
But the saying isn't that difficult.

What we take into ourselves becomes what we are.
Physically.....and spiritually.
Consume something in common and we all become the same.

It was written somewhere....the blood is the life.
Physically true.
Your thought and feeling is your life?
Spiritually true.

Consume the word (the 'blood' He spoke of) and the word becomes you.

That's how I see it.

 

[savagewind]

Do I really have to post all the places God says through His Prophets "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." ? ..... An eye for an eye perhaps for little things, but the sins for which OT exacted death? I do not feel led to exact that level of vengeance on anyone.....

And then I said I don't live that way (even though I know some people do). Then I slept on it. I lied. Sometimes I DO react like an eye for an eye. For instance, when it is discovered by me that someone does not like me I respond in kind as in "I don't like you either". But it is an emotional reaction. It might not be true at all.

 

[Avoice]

Jesus told the leper he healed to make an offering as Moses commanded.

Yes he did

(Matthew 8:3, 4) 3 And so, stretching out [his] hand, he touched him, saying: “I want to. Be made clean.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed away. 4 Then Jesus said to him: “See that you tell no one, but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses appointed, for the purpose of a witness to them.”
(Matthew 8:5, 6) 5 When he entered into Ca•per′na•um, an army officer came to him, entreating him 6 and saying: “Sir, my manservant is laid up in the house with paralysis, being terribly tormented.”

He said before you make an offering on the altar, make up with your brother and THEN make your offering.

And? How does this make your point?
Do you think this negates the command or supports it?

from e-Sword](Matthew 5:23, 24) 23 “If, then, you are bringing your gift to the altar and you there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar, and go away; first make your peace with your brother, and then, when you have come back, offer up your gift.

He also clarified what Eye for an eye was supposed to entail. As I said, not even modern Jews go by the strict rigid interpretation the Pharisees were using. It has nothing to do with any guilt you're feeling, this concept of having to be sin free before exacting judgment stems from the spurious "Pericope Adulterae" episode which does not exist in any early manuscript.

I think you mean

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Seems the adulteress is a pretty good illustration of the concept.

Zechariah 14 is quite clear that there will not only be sacrifices in the end days but that if the gentiles don't go to Jerusalem to celebrate Succoth they'll be struck with drought and plagues.

The end days

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Post end days

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Jesus taught nothing less than full obedience to the Mosaic Law. If he didn't, he wouldn't be the Jewish Messiah.

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
Pro 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Ecc 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Amo 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
Amo 5:22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
Amo 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
Amo 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

You were saying?

 

[Shermana]

Yes I was saying.

I cringe when I see people who quote those verses as if the Bible is contradicting itself and the writers never thought "Hmmm why would God institute complex sacrifices if he's just going to say he never wanted them in the first place...oh well, let's keep it all in, no one will notice that glaring contradiction". (However, it seems the NT writers had no problem with including a glaring contradiction or ten, but that's for another story, the difference here is that in this case it's merely a matter of bad cherry picked interpretation whereas the NT contradictions, as even the Christian scholars admit, cannot be reconciled except with extreme twisting, no twisting is involved to get the right context of the Sacrifice verses because it simply requires NOT CHERRY PICKING).

Can you imagine the possibility of the context being that God does not appreciate their sacrifices and burnt offerings being done without having the right heart and mindset or done while they have unconfessed major sins or are committing idolatry? Or do you want to believe that he was lying when he first instituted them? Or that the entire sacrificial system was forged by lying scribes? Sheesh I really can't stand when people completely misinterpret those verses to mean God wanted to do away with the sacrifices altogether, completely ignoring the later verses that describe that the sacrifices are still to be done except when their hearts are set right. So what about what I was saying is there an objection to?

Seems the adulteress is a pretty good illustration of the concept.

The Pericope Adulterae, as anyone with a basic knowledge of NT manuscript history should know, is likely a spurious addition that doesn't exist in the early manuscripts. That's why most translations put a little asterisk at 7:53. Thought I mentioned this but I'll be happy to explain again if needed. Thus, the common use of the Pericope Adulterae to justify just about any sin and not judging anyone for it....is a total complete canard. The episode of the Adulteress is commonly used to say the Mosaic Law shouldn't be applied, as if we should let murderers and rapists off the hook as well.

As for not judging, that's another highly misunderstood verse. The context of "Lest ye be judged" and the version in Luke of "You will be judged by the manner in which ye judge" does not mean you should not judge at all. Should you interpret that to mean you shouldn't judge someone who rapes and murders your whole family in cold blood? I don't think so. It means you will be judged how you are judged, and to not judge in ways that aren't legitimately just. You're still allowed to hold judgments of people. But be careful doing it.

And? How does this make your point?
Do you think this negates the command or supports it?

Jesus obviously was teaching to make a sacrifice as Moses commanded and explained that one should make up with their brother before offering on the altar. How does that NOT support my point?

I think you mean

No I think I mean in Matthew 5 where he says "You have heard an eye for an eye" and then explains that it's not meant to be applied to every little detail in a strict form of revenge. Even modern Rabbis believe this way, as I explained.

The end days

Yes, they will return in the end days, what's your objection? It doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't teaching to not obey the Law. The point I made was that Jesus said to make disciples of all nations. The Zechariah verses apply to EVERYONE not just Jesus's disciples. A disciple of Jesus would have the same rules and regulations as his Jewish followers. He never said "One rule for the gentile, and a different rule for the Jew". This does not mean that the Zechariah end times verses will only mean Jesus's disciples need obey the Law in the end days.

With that said, how does ANY of that post in any way remotely rebut what I said about Jesus teaching full obedience to the Mosaic Law? It doesn't.

 

[Thief]

And then I said I don't live that way (even though I know some people do). Then I slept on it. I lied. Sometimes I DO react like an eye for an eye. For instance, when it is discovered by me that someone does not like me I respond in kind as in "I don't like you either". But it is an emotional reaction. It might not be true at all.

Here you go...
In my old neighborhood it would come to pass...
Someone you have never seen before might walk right up to you...
and punch you in the face hard enough to maybe knock you down.

It happened more than a few times.

Typically I would offer the other cheek.
I don't advise that you follow that example....or commandment of the Carpenter!

It is a practice, seriously dangerous.

I believe there is consequence for such rude behavior.
When I arrive at the Doorstep of my Brothers....they will ask....
Who did this to you?

When that other fellow happens by....it will be done unto him...as he did unto me.
As many times as I have Brothers.

Hence the 'golden rule' is a code of behavior.... and a fair warning...all in one.

 

[Avoice]

Yes I was saying.

I cringe when I see people who quote those verses as if the Bible is contradicting itself and the writers never thought "Hmmm why would God institute complex sacrifices if he's just going to say he never wanted them in the first place...oh well, let's keep it all in, no one will notice that glaring contradiction". (However, it seems the NT writers had no problem with including a glaring contradiction or ten, but that's for another story, the difference here is that in this case it's merely a matter of bad cherry picked interpretation whereas the NT contradictions, as even the Christian scholars admit, cannot be reconciled except with extreme twisting, no twisting is involved to get the right context of the Sacrifice verses because it simply requires NOT CHERRY PICKING).

Can you imagine the possibility of the context being that God does not appreciate their sacrifices and burnt offerings being done without having the right heart and mindset or done while they have unconfessed major sins or are committing idolatry? Or do you want to believe that he was lying when he first instituted them? Or that the entire sacrificial system was forged by lying scribes? Sheesh I really can't stand when people completely misinterpret those verses to mean God wanted to do away with the sacrifices altogether, completely ignoring the later verses that describe that the sacrifices are still to be done except when their hearts are set right. So what about what I was saying is there an objection to?

What my point is and Jesus' point and the Prophets' point and the adulteress story's point is that we do not have a right to administer vengeance for God's law if we are guilty of having broken it ourselves.

The point of the sacrifice scriptures is that God did not ask for those sacrifices so we could game-play him. ie. sinning Monday through ? and offering sacrifice on our worship day to "atone for" what we did all week and intend to do the next week.

The Pericope Adulterae, as anyone with a basic knowledge of NT manuscript history should know, is likely a spurious addition that doesn't exist in the early manuscripts. That's why most translations put a little asterisk at 7:53. Thought I mentioned this but I'll be happy to explain again if needed. Thus, the common use of the Pericope Adulterae to justify just about any sin and not judging anyone for it....is a total complete canard. The episode of the Adulteress is commonly used to say the Mosaic Law shouldn't be applied, as if we should let murderers and rapists off the hook as well.

The point is not to excuse sin it is to encourage something Jesus told us: "judge not that you be judged not" It doesn't mean do not judge the sin evil and avoid it but, advise the sinner to go and sin no more.

As for not judging, that's another highly misunderstood verse. The context of "Lest ye be judged" and the version in Luke of "You will be judged by the manner in which ye judge" does not mean you should not judge at all. Should you interpret that to mean you shouldn't judge someone who rapes and murders your whole family in cold blood? I don't think so. It means you will be judged how you are judged, and to not judge in ways that aren't legitimately just. You're still allowed to hold judgments of people. But be careful doing it.

I think it means forgive and spread the word of God. God will not forgive an unrepentant sinner so, we are to believe - "Vengeance is Mine, sayeth Jehovah".


Jesus obviously was teaching to make a sacrifice as Moses commanded and explained that one should make up with their brother before offering on the altar. How does that NOT support my point?

It sounded like you were taking the two in Juxtaposition. I did not gather that as your point. My bad.

No I think I mean in Matthew 5 where he says "You have heard an eye for an eye" and then explains that it's not meant to be applied to every little detail in a strict form of revenge. Even modern Rabbis believe this way, as I explained.

Agreed.

Yes, they will return in the end days, what's your objection? It doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't teaching to not obey the Law. The point I made was that Jesus said to make disciples of all nations. The Zechariah verses apply to EVERYONE not just Jesus's disciples. A disciple of Jesus would have the same rules and regulations as his Jewish followers. He never said "One rule for the gentile, and a different rule for the Jew". This does not mean that the Zechariah end times verses will only mean Jesus's disciples need obey the Law in the end days.

With that said, how does ANY of that post in any way remotely rebut what I said about Jesus teaching full obedience to the Mosaic Law? It doesn't.

When Christ is on the Throne and the Kingdom in on the earth, I believe as you say here, that we will obey most of the Mosaic Law.

I do not know that we will be obeying the feast days as I believe we will have new feast days related to Jesus' sacrifice, resurrection at the appropriate time each year, and our final liberation by Jehovah through Jesus at the gathering of nations at Har-Megedon.