comments on the Qur'an whether good or bad

[firedragon]

It's no problem to me, I have to look at the oldest. I like to go to early manuscripts. But again I'm not a scholar and I'm still continually learning.

Well. If we make explorations like that its great. Just that we must realise that we cant learn much from P52. Its too small. That does not make it insignificant as a finding of historical value, of course not. But you must also know that there is a lot of dispute with the dating. If you know dating, this was not dated using carbon-14 dating. It was Paleographers who dated it. Thus, it is not at all a confirmed dating because based on evolving understanding and discovery of new manuscripts the science of Paleography evolves too.

 

[Brian Schuh]

The Koran is an enduring work of literature, and as such, deserves a place in literature classes in colleges and maybe even high schools.

I took a Bible as Literature class in high school, the Koran deserves the same treatment.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Koran is an enduring work of literature, and as such, deserves a place in literature classes in colleges and maybe even high schools.
I took a Bible as Literature class in high school, the Koran deserves the same treatment.

I agree with you. Quran has a value as literature also.
Regards

 

[firedragon]

The Koran is an enduring work of literature, and as such, deserves a place in literature classes in colleges and maybe even high schools.

I took a Bible as Literature class in high school, the Koran deserves the same treatment.

I wish I went for a class like that. Lucky you.

 

[Augustus]

The Koran is an enduring work of literature, and as such, deserves a place in literature classes in colleges and maybe even high schools.

I took a Bible as Literature class in high school, the Koran deserves the same treatment.

There is a fair bit of recent scholarly research on the Quran from the perspective of literature.

For example, numerous passages have a chiastic (ring) structure, which is also present in other classical sources like the Iliad and the Old Testament.

 

[Yasin-shalal]

I know it. I dont believe it.

I believe in God. Not human made theologies. No, Islam was not invented by the prophet Muhammed for me to believe in peoples divisions after him. The Quran calls us Shia, which is an arabic word with a meaning. There are over 6k verses in the Quran with thousands of words. I translate them and follow the Quran. I dont call myself with any other name but the most commonly used ones, by God himself, in the Quran. I dont worship anyone but God. By worship I mean to believe in a divinity.

Why do you believe in an extra-quranic, man-made, NEW theology? Islam was is the only one authorised by God, the system of peace and submission. Millat Ibrahima.

Zalikal kithaba la raiba fee hi hudhallil muttaqeen.

Salam Akhee.

Wa alykum as-Salam wa rahmatullah
Listen brother, It's been only a few days that we know each other and I cannot claim I know what exactly your beliefs are. On the other hand, It's clear that we both have quite different ideas on two basic issues(Correct me if I'm wrong):
-a) You believe that "Shia" is a man made, new theology which is not required in any crucial aspects of Islam.
-b) On the other hand, you regard "Tashayyo" and "Sunnah" some political issues which cause deviation between Muslims.

Here are my arguments:
ON a)

How can one believe in Quran and ignore verse Quran (5:67)? If God regards the succession of Muhammad(pbuh) as his message and warns him about "not revealing His message", how can you ignore such an issue?
On the other hand, the fact that Islam was a proposed religion long before Muhammad(pbuh) is undeniable. However, not in its comprehensive style.
Al-yawm akmaltu lakum kinakum wa .....
Isnt it the verse of Quran?!

Islam is a comprehensive plan for life. It suggests plans for every aspect of humanity. How can you expect Islam not to suggest a plan for leadership and politics?!!!!

ON b)
Just look at the world and check out how things are going! A secular government leads to a secular nation. A cruel king cause so many innocent Muslims lose their lives. Bad theocracies define their new Islam and....No one can deny the importance of a true Imamah(leadership) system for a society.
Yes, Tashayyo is a political plan, suggested to all Muslims. It will lead to the Heavenly kingdom of Mahdi and Christ, peace be upon them both. It is required for this:
Innal arda yaresuha ibaias-Salihun...

 

[firedragon]

How can one believe in Quran and ignore verse Quran (5:67)? If God regards the succession of Muhammad(pbuh) as his message and warns him about "not revealing His message", how can you ignore such an issue?
On the other hand, the fact that Islam was a proposed religion long before Muhammad(pbuh) is undeniable. However, not in its comprehensive style.
Al-yawm akmaltu lakum kinakum wa .....
Isnt it the verse of Quran?!

Islam is a comprehensive plan for life. It suggests plans for every aspect of humanity. How can you expect Islam not to suggest a plan for leadership and politics?!!!!

There are over 6000 verses in the Quran. There could be many words like Shia. My wives name is Shia. But thats not a name of a religion cited in the Quran. Thats a man made theology. Islam existed from the beginning. Jesus was a Muslim. There was no Shia or Sunni then. In Gods eyes, even now, there are no names like that. Only man made.

ON b)
Just look at the world and check out how things are going! A secular government leads to a secular nation. A cruel king cause so many innocent Muslims lose their lives. Bad theocracies define their new Islam and....No one can deny the importance of a true Imamah(leadership) system for a society.
Yes, Tashayyo is a political plan, suggested to all Muslims. It will lead to the Heavenly kingdom of Mahdi and Christ, peace be upon them both. It is required for this:
Innal arda yaresuha ibaias-Salihun...

Thats again your business, your plan. Not relevant to me. Because Im a Muslim. I wish to coexists with my Christian, Atheistic and Buddhist brethren. I wish to live according to Allahs teachings. If someone is oppressed I will help them as the Quran says. If I am to fight someone to rescue them, yes I will. But I will not be the aggressor, as the Quran teaches. But I dont need one imam, as my Imam is Gods word.

Peace.

 

[anonymous9887]

Well. If we make explorations like that its great. Just that we must realise that we cant learn much from P52. Its too small. That does not make it insignificant as a finding of historical value, of course not. But you must also know that there is a lot of dispute with the dating. If you know dating, this was not dated using carbon-14 dating. It was Paleographers who dated it. Thus, it is not at all a confirmed dating because based on evolving understanding and discovery of new manuscripts the science of Paleography evolves too.

If Allah is not responsible for cripples how would you fit in the picture
Surah 3:6?

 

[firedragon]

If Allah is not responsible for cripples how would you fit in the picture
Surah 3:6?

From P52 dating to cripples. Nice.

And what does 3:6 have to do with anything? Seriously mate.

 

[anonymous9887]

From P52 dating to cripples. Nice.

And what does 3:6 have to do with anything? Seriously mate.

Well can you please explain it? I don't get it. I saw it of my own reading of the Qur'an btw

 

[anonymous9887]

From P52 dating to cripples. Nice.

And what does 3:6 have to do with anything? Seriously mate.

Btw if I ask a question you are under obligation to god to answer the question if you know the answer.

 

[Yasin-shalal]

There are over 6000 verses in the Quran. There could be many words like Shia. My wives name is Shia. But thats not a name of a religion cited in the Quran. Thats a man made theology. Islam existed from the beginning. Jesus was a Muslim. There was no Shia or Sunni then. In Gods eyes, even now, there are no names like that. Only man made.

Well, as it seems, you havent checked out the mentioned verse. Your response is not relevant, bro!

Thats again your business, your plan. Not relevant to me. Because Im a Muslim. I wish to coexists with my Christian, Atheistic and Buddhist brethren. I wish to live according to Allahs teachings. If someone is oppressed I will help them as the Quran says. If I am to fight someone to rescue them, yes I will. But I will not be the aggressor, as the Quran teaches. But I dont need one imam, as my Imam is Gods word.

Peace.

I also coexist with Christians, atheists, Jews and... so what?! Who want you to be an aggressor?!!!! I'm not sure you understood my words or not!!
Brother, here are my arguments:
-Islam, as a religion, was a dynamic religion which was promoted during the history. You cannot ignore the comprehensive Islam, and adhere to any part of the religion you like. Leadership, IS one of the most important part of Islam.

- You MUST chose an Imam, it's what God has ordered us(Check out the mentioned verse). See also this:
Quran 17:71
On the Day when We call every people with their Imam. Whoever is given his record in his right hand-these will read their record, and they will not be wronged one bit.
Is that "Imam" also the name of your wife(Sorry to be so witty )?

 

[Yasin-shalal]

There are over 6000 verses in the Quran. There could be many words like Shia. My wives name is Shia. But thats not a name of a religion cited in the Quran. Thats a man made theology. Islam existed from the beginning. Jesus was a Muslim. There was no Shia or Sunni then. In Gods eyes, even now, there are no names like that. Only man made.



.

Well, as it seems, you havent checked out the mentioned verse. Your response is not relevant, bro!

 

[firedragon]

1-Response:
Brother, the word "Shia" was used by prophet(pbuh) himself several times. There are authentic Hadiths that prophet(pbuh) says:" O' Ali, you and your Shia ...."
Hence, Shia was there from the beginning!!
You also need to check these verses:
[37:83]Indeed Abraham was among his(i.e., Noah) Shia.

[28:15]He(i.e. Moses) found there two men fighting, this one from among his Shia, and that one from his enemies.

However, you are right on the case of "Sunni". It was made after the death of prophet(pbuh).

You quoted 37:83. It says Shia you said. It doesnt say Shia. Shia is not mentioned as a sole word to be taken as a theology. Its Shi'athihi.

Analyse. It says ShiAthihi, which means own kind, followers etc.
Using this to show me that your theology exists is vain bro. I dont intend to put you down. But look at this verse.

6:65 Say: “He is able to send retribution from above you or from below your feet, or He will make you belong to opposing factions/sects, then He will let you taste the might of each other.” See how We dispatch the signs, perhaps they may understand.

It says "Yalbisakum Shiaaan", confuse you into sects/factions. I can use the same word to show you that you are confused into sects and factions.

6:159 Those who have divided their system and become sects, you are not with them in anything. Their matter will be with God, then He will inform them of what they had done.

The saddest thing. Farrakoo dheenahum wakaanoo Shiaan. Divide their religion and become sects, the Shia is used directly as sect.

Bro, I know that Shia means followers. But you cant take the Quran to justify your theology, because it is not Quranic. Then its very easy to justify through the Quran, using your own analogy of the word Shia in the Quran, that you are propagating sectarianism.

Lets not play this gutter game.

I also coexist with Christians, atheists, Jews and... so what?! Who want you to be an aggressor?!!!! I'm not sure you understood my words or not!!

No one wants me to be an aggressor, I was just explaining part of the Quranic theology.

I also coexist with Christians, atheists, Jews and... so what?! Who want you to be an aggressor?!!!! I'm not sure you understood my words or not!!
Brother, here are my arguments:
-Islam, as a religion, was a dynamic religion which was promoted during the history. You cannot ignore the comprehensive Islam, and adhere to any part of the religion you like. Leadership, IS one of the most important part of Islam.

- You MUST chose an Imam, it's what God has ordered us(Check out the mentioned verse). See also this:
Quran 17:71
On the Day when We call every people with their Imam. Whoever is given his record in his right hand-these will read their record, and they will not be wronged one bit.
Is that "Imam" also the name of your wife(Sorry to be so witty )?

Youre not being witty bro, youre just being silly. And no, Imam is not my wifes name. Imam is more of a male name wouldnt you think? Tsk.

My wifes name is Shia.

Nevertheless, you quoted 17:71. With their Imam. Why havent you translated the word Imam. Isnt it hypocritical to translate the whole verse but leave this word alone?

Biimamihim could mean leader, beacon. Then people will read from their Kithabahum (Their records) when they are given his record.

What you are doing is, you are taking a current concept, and understanding the Quran from your own perception, filtered through your own theology. It should be the other way around. Quran is the Furqan, not your theology.

Read that verse again. If you are called with your BiImamihim (Register, guide, Beacon), you will your record, your book, then you will not be wronged. Read the following verse from the same Quran

46:12 And before it was the Book of Moses, a Imam and a mercy. And this is an affirming Book, in an Arabic tongue, so that you may warn those who have transgressed, and to give good news to the righteous.

I left that Imam word in Arabic with a purpose. I dont know what translation you use that left the word IMam in the previous on as it was, but check if 46:12 is also left without translating the word Imam. If they have translated only this verse, they are hypocrites with an agenda.

What is the "Imam" explained in that verse? Its the book of Moses, before the Quran, and the Quran is the affirming book.

Quran is the Imam mate.

Well, as it seems, you havent checked out the mentioned verse. Your response is not relevant, bro!

Dont make assumptions bro. I have read that verse. I have read the Quran. I just didnt want to go deep into this. My response means something. The Quran has many many words like this. We cant take one word to create a faction. Then the Quran also uses the word Muslim. And tells us not to create factions. Why not just stay with that instead of following people. Imams and sectarian leaders.

Peace.

 

[Yasin-shalal]

You quoted 37:83. It says Shia you said. It doesnt say Shia. Shia is not mentioned as a sole word to be taken as a theology. Its Shi'athihi.

Analyse. It says ShiAthihi, which means own kind, followers etc.
Using this to show me that your theology exists is vain bro. I dont intend to put you down. But look at this verse.

6:65 Say: “He is able to send retribution from above you or from below your feet, or He will make you belong to opposing factions/sects, then He will let you taste the might of each other.” See how We dispatch the signs, perhaps they may understand.

It says "Yalbisakum Shiaaan", confuse you into sects/factions. I can use the same word to show you that you are confused into sects and factions.

6:159 Those who have divided their system and become sects, you are not with them in anything. Their matter will be with God, then He will inform them of what they had done.

The saddest thing. Farrakoo dheenahum wakaanoo Shiaan. Divide their religion and become sects, the Shia is used directly as sect.

Bro, I know that Shia means followers. But you cant take the Quran to justify your theology, because it is not Quranic. Then its very easy to justify through the Quran, using your own analogy of the word Shia in the Quran, that you are propagating sectarianism.

Lets not play this gutter game.



No one wants me to be an aggressor, I was just explaining part of the Quranic theology.



Youre not being witty bro, youre just being silly. And no, Imam is not my wifes name. Imam is more of a male name wouldnt you think? Tsk.

My wifes name is Shia.


.

Salam,

Before starting any arguments, I give my apologies on "Imam being your wife". No intention to offend bro, it's just because of cultural differences. I hope you understand. I laugh and make laugh, and it was quite OK in my culture to use that.

Arguments on the word Shia:

Brother, you are trying hard to show that "Shia" is political movement which has been made after prophet(pbuh). You regard it as a new theory proposed by some people.(Correct me if I'm wrong).

What I wanna say, is that "Shia" is in fact, the continuous part of Islam, we are in fact the followers of Islam. Being Shia in my idea, is just being a Muslim who follows the ones whom MUST be followed.

You also argue that the word "Shia" in the mentioned verses dont suggest any theology named "Shia" and they all suggest a concept of being "followers".

I also confirm that! However, the problem with you is that, you regard "Tashayyo" something different from "being follower" and then you try to prove that it has nothing to do with Quran.

 

[Yasin-shalal]

Nevertheless, you quoted 17:71. With their Imam. Why havent you translated the word Imam. Isnt it hypocritical to translate the whole verse but leave this word alone?

Biimamihim could mean leader, beacon. Then people will read from their Kithabahum (Their records) when they are given his record.

O0oh my God, do you think I use "Imam" as a proper noun?!!!!
It's obvious that it means "leader"!!!
I think you make the same wrong assumption on the word Shia!!!!

 

[Yasin-shalal]

46:12 And before it was the Book of Moses, a Imam and a mercy. And this is an affirming Book, in an Arabic tongue, so that you may warn those who have transgressed, and to give good news to the righteous.

I left that Imam word in Arabic with a purpose. I dont know what translation you use that left the word IMam in the previous on as it was, but check if 46:12 is also left without translating the word Imam. If they have translated only this verse, they are hypocrites with an agenda.

What is the "Imam" explained in that verse? Its the book of Moses, before the Quran, and the Quran is the affirming book.

Quran is the Imam mate

Yes, of course Quran can also be guide!

 

[firedragon]

Salam,

Before starting any arguments, I give my apologies on "Imam being your wife". No intention to offend bro, it's just because of cultural differences. I hope you understand. I laugh and make laugh, and it was quite OK in my culture to use that.

Arguments on the word Shia:

Brother, you are trying hard to show that "Shia" is political movement which has been made after prophet(pbuh). You regard it as a new theory proposed by some people.(Correct me if I'm wrong).

What I wanna say, is that "Shia" is in fact, the continuous part of Islam, we are in fact the followers of Islam. Being Shia in my idea, is just being a Muslim who follows the ones whom MUST be followed.

You also argue that the word "Shia" in the mentioned verses dont suggest any theology named "Shia" and they all suggest a concept of being "followers".

I also confirm that! However, the problem with you is that, you regard "Tashayyo" something different from "being follower" and then you try to prove that it has nothing to do with Quran.

Bro, no offense taken my akhee.

You can remain Shia. I am Muslim, we are all brothers. What I tried to show you was that the word was also used in the Quran to refer to sect, and we are asked not to make sects.

I am a person who believes as a religion, even Christianity is a sect of Islam.

But, I have no problem. This is just a theological discussion.

Lol btw, my wifes actual name is Shiya.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, of course Quran can also be guide!

I believe in the Quranic theory, Quran is THE guide, not A guide.

 

[Yasin-shalal]

Bro, no offense taken my akhee.

You can remain Shia. I am Muslim, we are all brothers. What I tried to show you was that the word was also used in the Quran to refer to sect, and we are asked not to make sects.

I am a person who believes as a religion, even Christianity is a sect of Islam.

But, I have no problem. This is just a theological discussion.

Lol btw, my wifes actual name is Shiya.

Peace.

That's OK bro.

And of course be aware of self promoted theologies. The knowledge that a top scholar has is not comparable with ours.
I'm not sure which sources of Hadith you use, do you use any Hadith sources?