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Common misconceptions about the big bang

linwood said:

No, we can only see visible light. Even when you look a picture taken by X-Ray, you are not seeing X-Rays. That's the beauty of science....we can "figure out" even those things that are not accessible to us via our senses. At any rate, you appear to concede that contradictory things can accurately describe reality.

Yes when those contradictory things have some verifiable evidence to support them.
The Particle has none.
X-Rays have support, The Particle does not
Cepheid variables and type 1A supernovae are evidence of the distances and speeds amongst galaxies. This information can be used to calculate the density of the universe in the past. How is this not evidence? Do you require the actual raw data from the observatories themselves? How many times must I repeat this? :banghead3

linwood said:
We have evidence of space expanding, and we have evidence of the rock falling....got any evidence for this Leprechaun of yours?

Yep, the expansion of the universe and the fact that the rock was probably falling 3 seconds before it was observed.
It`s every bit as good as yours
That was the point.
Then it was a poor one, at best. A rock 45 m in the air is the same entity as a rock 5m in the air, but in a different state. The universe with any density is the same entity as the universe with any other density. A leprechaun is a seperate entity from both. Why add entities unnecessarily?

linwood said:
The fact that the universe is expanding is not evidence of an infinitely dense particle.
It`s not evidence of an infinitesimal particle.
It is however convincing evidence that.."The Universe is Expanding and probably has been for a long time."
I`ll give it that, it supports no theory of a beginning of that expansion like The Particle.
By this reasoning, the falling rock is evidence that the rock has been falling for a really long time...but it isn't evidence that the rock was 45m higher 3 seconds ago, as calculation suggests.

linwood said:
I am stating that it is not reasonable because there is no evidence of anything ever existing that compares to its properties nor any need to invent unobserved properties without basis.
The Big Bang could very well be "true" without The Particle and at least to an extent probably is.
It is most definately not certain.
I agree that it is not certain. I disagree that it is unreasonable.

linwood said:
So for my 10 cent question yet again.
Do you have any evidence of The Particles existence?
Yes. Cepheid variables, type 1A supernovae, and calculation.

linwood said:
I`ll throw a second question in for free just because I want your earlier statement clarified.
Has any black hole been evidenced to have infinate density?
Yes. I believe I have explained it before. :banghead3 Here goes again...if you observe the luminosity of the matter around a black hole over time, you can calculate the volume. If you observe the motions of objects orbiting the black hole, you can calculate the mass. If you use this information to calculate the density inside the event horizon, you can calculate the force of gravity inside the event horizon. You will find that the force of gravity inside the event horizon is larger than the repulsion forces amongst atomic particles. Therefore, the distance between particles extrapolates to zero (a singularity of infinite density).
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Cepheid variables and type 1A supernovae are evidence of the distances and speeds amongst galaxies. This information can be used to calculate the density of the universe in the past. How is this not evidence? Do you require the actual raw data from the observatories themselves? How many times must I repeat this?

Again, this is not evidence for an infinite particle Spinks.
This is merely evidence for the expansion of matter.
You do not have to say it anymore, you didn`t have to say it this time nor the previous numerous times you`ve said it.
The only question I`ve been asking is...

What evidence is there of The Particle?

This ain`t it and you know this ain`t it.

A leprechaun is a seperate entity from both. Why add entities unnecessarily?

Exactly my point.
I added the Leprechaun and you added The Particle


I agree that it is not certain. I disagree that it is unreasonable.


Then you have found evidence of something that has been shown to have an actual infinite density?
Otherwise, it`s unreasonable.

Yes. Cepheid variables, type 1A supernovae, and calculation.

All Cepheid variables do is verify Hubbles Law which verifies matter expansion.

All they do in this debate is verify an expanding universe.

Changing the evidence for expansion from one method to another does not produce evidence for anything other than expansion itself, which I`m not arguing.

You are debating against a point I have not made.
In fact it is a point I have repeatedly agreed with.
I am curious though, have Cepheid variables finally united science on a single value for Hubbles constant ?

If not then there is still a great deal of question about the rate of universal expansion to begin with.

The latest posts to this board about a verified age of the universe lead me to believe they have agreed on Hubbles constant but I haven`t checked it out for myself yet.

If they have not then your submission of “calculation” as evidence is hardly empirical nor verifiable.

1A supernovas also do not indicate an “infinitely” and infinitesimal” singularity (The Particle) they merely verify that the universe was “relatively” dense at one point in time.

They do not provide evidence for a physically real infinite particle.

I have not argued that the universe (matter) was not dense, even extremely dense.

In fact I have throughout this thread accepted the possibility, even probability.

All I`m trying to get at is the impossibility of anything physically being “infinitely dense”.

Spinks, it doesn`t matter how you change the wording of the argument, it still doesn`t supply evidence for The Particle as “infinitely dense”

Therefore, the distance between particles extrapolates to zero (a singularity of infinite density).

Yes, you have explained it over and over and over again and I got it the first time.

The point if that the extrapolation you speak of is a mathematical model.

The model exists like this because for all intents and purposes of science it may as well be infinite but it is not.

It is not infinitely dense in a physical reality and cannot be considering the black hole begins with a finite amount of matter in the first place, to compress this finite amount of mastter into infinite density would be to compress it out of existence.

You callin' me a liar? From post #47 of this thread:

Nope, I`m calling you a misrepresenter. J

Not exactly a fair representation.

Post # 47 clearly shows me asking in bold red text…

Can we determine the mass of a black hole?

Shortly after the quote you posted here I conceded my statement that I didn`t see how we could measure the density of a black hole once you supplied me with evidence.

You imply stubborn inacceptance of certain theories by me then edit posts of mine that show I am not.

Misrepresentation and not like you Spinks.

It reminds me of many religious adherents.

I'll tentatively accept the current interpretation of the evidence by those who are knowledgable in the subject, and I'll distinguish this tentative acceptance from dogmatic belief in Deity by pointing out that the latter has no Hubble measurements, no equations, no calculations to support it.

They may as well considering those calculations are based on Theoretical Physics.

Theoretical physics postulates a hypothetical phenomenon and then seeks to “prove” it.

Data for the existence of The Particle is conspicuously lacking.

The Hubble constant as far as I know is still argued.

Hubble measurements are still not really quantified and even if they were we could never know if the expansion of matter has always been consistent.

We could not know what kind of “point” or singularity this expansion began from.

It could very well have started from a dense cluster of matter billions of billions of light years across .
Or an infinitesimal Leprechaun In other words we have no observable data to empirically state that the expansion began at a physically infinitely dense point.

"The Particle" is the calculated density of the universe about 14 billion years ago, and this calculation comes from other values (like the distances between galaxies, their accelerations) which are calculated based on observation. Again, evidence for A is evidence for that which is calculated from A.

Yes The Particle is “assumed” because we continue the regression of this expansion backwards to come to the point of The Particle but we have no way of knowing if this expansion has always been consistent or as I`ve said above began well before we must regress all the way back to a singularity.

There is no evidence.

We still have trouble with the distances between galaxies and we have no clue as to the consistency of their acceleration.

You keep repeating the same stuff over and over and I keep refuting this stuff over and over.

This time you`ve changed the terminology and approached it from the standpoint of different evidence for expansion but it is still only evidence for expansion.

It is not evidence for The Particle.

The calculations imply a particle if we continue them back to “The Beginning” but we have no idea what or when the beginning was so we can only do this on an entirely theoretical basis.

There`s no evidence of when this beginning was or what its properties were…none.

Please explain what substantive message (if any) was expressed by "Nothing existed prior to God. Nothing existed prior to The Particle."

The message is that there is no evidence of God and there is little or no evidence of The Particle.

Pretty simple really.

Certainly. But earlier you said it can't be falsified. You equated it to blind faith in God. How can something unfalsifiable be "tested and confirmed"?

I didn`t say The Particle is being tested and confirmed.
I said the theories that assume The Particle are being tested and affirmed.

The Particle can never be falsified.
God can never be falsified.
Hey!

Thanks for the addition to my God is The Particle list!!
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Cepheid variables and type 1A supernovae are evidence of the distances and speeds amongst galaxies. This information can be used to calculate the density of the universe in the past. How is this not evidence?

“Can be calculated” IF we ASSUME consistent rate of acceleration.

“Can be Calculated” IF we assume constants to determine the distance between galaxies.

“Can be Calculated” IF we assume the regression of a backwards Bang keeps going until it reaches an infinitely dense particle that goes against all physical laws we have ever observed.

It`s not evidence of The Particle.
It`s merely evidence that matter is expanding, we don`t know for how long it`s been expanding, we don`t know .


I agree that it is not certain. I disagree that it is unreasonable.


If you agree it is uncertain what weight does your evidence carry?

All I`m putting forth here is that there is no evidence to state The Particle existed.

You`ve claimed it did exist, now you say it is uncertain.


Yes. Cepheid variables, type 1A supernovae, and calculation.


No, these are not evidence of a physical infinitely dense particle.

These are evidence of the expansion of space and the rate of that expansion, except for the calculation which is based upon variables that are purely hypothetical.
Hubbles constant.


If you agree that the universe has always been expanding, then what's the problem?

I did not agree that the universe has always been expanding, in fact I`ve continuously stated that we cannot know the historical rate and velocity of this expansion

I`ve stated we cannot know when it began expanding nor can we know the properties of the universe before this expansion.

Can we know any of this ?

You have already said you agree the universe has always been expanding, which eliminates a). The question, then, is what evidence do you have for the counteractive force posited in b)?

I never said this.

I said…..

“I haven`t disagreed that the universe could have been expanding for any time before 14 billion years ago..not once.
I don`t see why the expansion of the universe for that time period is evidence of The Particle and you still haven`t given me any.”
..and I stand by it because we cannot know the rate, velocity, or properties of the beginning of this expansion.

The singularity that caused the bang could have any number of properties that do not entail an Infinitely Dense Particle.

Considering I know of no Physically Real Infinitely Dense Anything I have no reason to “create” one to fit any theory.

In fact I didn`t agree with constant historical expansion at all I said “it could have been”.
It might very well “could not have been”.

Either way there is no need for this mythical Particle.

Why?
Why is it not reasonable to suggest that the matter of the universe began expanding from a "highly" dense state?


It's not unreasonable to suggest that, but it would be unreasonable to suggest that and not give any support for it, and then assert that better-supported explanations are equivalent to positing God's existence. The math implies that, unless some unknown force(s) acted on the universe during those first 3 minutes (it was during this time that the universe was so dense no light escaped that we can detect now), the universe was infinitely dense about 14 billion years ago. If you believe the math is wrong, bring out the evidence for the aforementioned force(s).

The math implies, the math implies, the math implies, arrrggghhhhhh!!!!

That’s my point Spinks, it`s a mathematical hypothesis based on what little observational data we have since we first noticed redshift.

I`m not doubting the math.

The math is immaculate, it`s beautiful, it`s perfect but it`s also based upon hypothetical constants that we just have no freaking clue as to whether they even belong in the equation.

We cannot know that this expansion of matter has always been expanding at the same rate or velocity or time or that the beginning of this expansion was entirely different from what this math implies.

The constants imbedded in the math are assumptions based on the premise that the universe has always acted exactly as its acting now and that it goes back to a certain time which we have narrowed down to somewhere between 10 to 20 billion years ago.

That’s a damn big margin for error.

It`s based on data that has never been observed in any way.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Space is isotropic, with galaxy clusters in all directions. There is no "one part of space" that is dramatically different from all other parts of space.

This is what I`m asking.

Instead of a hypothetical infinitely dense particle beginning expansion 14 billion years ago why can it not be a hypothetical dense singularity measuring billions of billions of light years across starting expansion 12 billion years ago?

The calculation of the universe being 14 billion years old is based in part on Bang theory itself.

Science assumes the expansion went all the way back to a infinitesimally small singularity that virtually popped out of no where.

Why?

Why do they assume this?

The 14 billion year age that you use to support The Particle is based upon The Particles existence to begin with.
That’s circular as hell and yet another verse I will be adding to my The Singularity is God listing.

Thank You again.

It's highly improbable that "the exact historical rate of expansion has been calculate perfectly," yes. It is not high improbable, however, that the historical expansion has been calculated to a good approximation. In any case, the rate of expansion only tells us how long ago the distance between galaxies was zero--not whether or not the distance was ever zero...so this really isn't relevant to our discussion.

It`s not only relevant to our discussion it is the basis of my entire skepticism of The Particle.

How could this not be relevant?

If we cannot be sure exactly when the expansion began how can we be sure what the properties of the beginning of this expansion were?

It`s the entire point of this discussion!!

You say the rate of expansion cannot tell us if there was an infinite particle but throughout this entire debate you`ve used nothing but redshift and expansion rates/velocity as evidence of The Particle.

Whats up with that?

No, the following is what I state: since we know the universe has been expanding for 14 billion years minus 3 minutes, it seems reasonable to assume that it was expanding 3 minutes before that as well. IF this assumption is correct, it would seem that the infinite volume of the universe was, at one point in its history, infinitely dense.

We don`t know the 14 billion year mark is even correct as you`ve shown in the quote directly previous to this one yet you propose to assume what was happening 3 seconds prior to this 14 billion mark we cannot even be sure of?

Point being this beginning did not have to come from The Particle it could have come from any singularity that does not directl break our physical laws.

Why was we assume against what we know to create a mythical particle when we could assume from what what we do know ?

Why must we have a beginning that denies the laws of time and physics?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Without going into details about cepheid variables and type 1A supernovae, we can use observations of them to calculate the relative speeds of the galaxies, the current distances between galaxies, and the acceleration of the expansion of the universe. These observations are evidence. This information can be used to calculate the distances between galaxies at any point in time in the past. When astrophysicists plug in the numbers, they get distance between galaxies = 0 at t = about 14 billion years ago.

They are evidence of expansion.
They are not evidence of The Particle

"Because this dying star has such huge mass, it becomes too strong for even neutrons to resist. It eventually collapses down to one incredibly dense point, …
Anything that crosses a black hole's event horizon is crushed into an incredibly dense singularity."

"At the center of a black hole is a point called a singularity, where matter is crushed to infinite density.

Hmm..Space.com and space.about.com seem to be saying two different things.

Space.com says a Black Hole is “incredibly” dense.

Space.about.com says a Black Hole is “infinitely” dense.

Which is it?

There is a big difference between incredibly dense and infinitely dense.

My grandmothers pound cake was incredibly dense but I wouldn`t say it was infinitely dense.
It could possibly have generated its own gravitational pull though.
J
I never denied that a black hole was incredibly dense, just that it was infinitely dense.

You`re splitting hairs.

So the documentation lies in the equations submitted by Einstein and the calculations done by Schwarzchild.

So sayeth the high priests

These calculations are still disputed, in fact Einstein’s cosmological constant was rejected by himself once direct observational evidence showed it was wrong.

We have no direct observational evidence to either verify or deny these calculations and we are not likely to ever get it.

They cannot be verified by reality.

The biggest mistake of his career he said.
He was brilliant but he`s not God, he was fallible

Perhaps now you could support your assertion that belief in a singularity is like belief in God by explaining which equations calculate God's existence.

I don`t have to.
You just did it by submitting mathematical evidence from the two greatest minds physics has known as if they could not be disputed.

Religion anyone?

It's in the math, linwood. If two galaxies are receeding from each other at a relative speed of v, with constant acceleration a, at a distance d, then two kinematic equations can be combined to give:

I know the math Spinks.

I want the reality!!

The math says nothing more than "matter is expanding."
That’s it that’s all no more.
Done.
I says nothing more.

Science “assumes” it was always expanding at the same rate and velocity but it bases that on hypothetical history.

I'm not arguing that the mass of any black hole is infinite.

Then exactly what are you arguing Spinks?

Because when answering my request for evidence of infinitely dense black holes.

you stated….

“Therefore, the distance between particles extrapolates to zero (a singularity of infinite density).”

I`ll ask again..

Has any black hole been evidenced to have infinite density?

Yes?
No?

I won`t accept “Maybe” anymore.


rolleyes.gif
 

oracle

Active Member
Here is an interesting Article:

Scientific American said:
The expansion of the universe may be the most important fact we have ever discovered about our origins. You would not be reading this article if the universe had not expanded. Human beings would not exist. Cold molecular things such as lifeforms and terrestrial planets could not have come into existence unless the universe, starting from a hot big bang, had expanded and cooled. The formation of all the structures in the universe, from galazies and stars to planets and Scientific American articles, has depended on the expansion. Forty years ago this July, scientists announced the discovery of definite evidence for the expansion of the universe from a hotter, denser, primordial state. They had found the coll afterglow of the big bang: the cosmic microwave background radiation. Since this discovery, the expansion and cooling of the universe has been the unifying theme of cosmollogy, much as Darwinian evolution is the unifying theme of biology. Like Darwinian evolution, cosmic expansion provides the context within which simple structures form and develop over time into complex structures. Without evolution and expansion, modern biology and cosmology make little sense.
The expansion of the universe is like Darwinian evolution in another curious way: most scientists think they understand it, but few agree on what it really means. A century and a half after On the Origin of Species, biologists still debate the mechanisms and implications (through not the reality) of Darwinism, while much of the public still flouders in pre-Darwinian cluenessness. Similarly, 75 years after it's initial discovery, the expansion fo the univers is still widely misunderstood. A prominent cosmologist involved in the interpretation of the cosmic microwave background, James Peebles of Princeston University, wrote in 1993: " The full extent and richness of this picture [the hot big bang model} is not as well understood as I think it ought to be... even among those making some of the most stimulation contributions to the flow of ideas."
Renowned physicists, authors of astronomy textbooks and prominent poularizers of science have made incorrect, misleading or easily misinterpreted statements about the expansion of the univers. Because expansion is the basis of the big bang model, these misunderstandings are fundamental. Expansion is a beguilingly simple idea, but what exactly does it mean to say the universe is expanding, too? to add to the befuddlement, the expansion fo the univers now seems to be accelerating, a process with truly mind-stretching consequences.
When some familiar object expands, such as a sprained ankle or the Roman Empire or a bomb, it gets bigger by expanding into the space around it. Ankles, empires and bombs have centers and edges. OUtside the edges, there is room to expand into. The universe does not seem to have and edge or a center or an outside, so how can it expand?
A good anology is to imaging that you are an ant living on the surface of an inflating balloon. Your world is two dimensional; the only directions you know are left, right, forward, and backward. You have no idea what up and down mean. One day you realize that your walk to milk your aphids is taking longer than it used to: five minutes oneday, six minutes the next day, seven minutes the next. The time it takes to walk to other familiar places is also increasing. You are sure that you are not walking more slowly and that the aphids are milling around randomly in groups, not systematically crawling away from you. This is the important point: the distances to the aphids are increasing even though the aphids are not walking away. They are just standing there, at rest with respect to the rubber of the balloon, yet the distances to them and between them are increasing. Noticing these facts, you conclude that the ground beneath your feet is expanding. That is very strange because you have walked around your world and found no edge or "outside" for it to expand into.
The expansion of our universe is much like the inflation of a balloon. The distance to remote galaxies are increasing. Astronmers casually say that distant galaxies are "receding" or "moving away" from us, but the galaxies are not traveling through space from us. They are not fragments of a big bang bomb. Instead the space between the galaxies and us is expanding. Individual galaxies move around at random within clusters, but the clusters of galaxies are essentially at rest. The term "at rest" can be defined rigorously. The microwave background radiation fills the universe and defines a universal referance frame, analogous to the rubber of the balloon, with respect to which motion can be measured.
This balloon analogy should not be stretched too far. From our point of view outside the balloon, the expansion of the curved two-dimensional rubber is not possible only because it is embedded in three-dimensional space. Within the third dimension, the balloon has a center, and it's surface expands into the surrounding air as it inflates. One might conclude that the expansion of our three-dimensional space requires the presence of a fourth dimension. But in Einstien's general theory of relativity, the foundation of modern cosmology, space is dynamic. It can expand, shrink, and curve without being embedded in a higher-dimensional space.
In this sense, the universe is self-contained. It needs neither a center to expand away from nor empty space on the outside (wherever that is) to expand into. When it expands, it does not claim previouls unoccupied space from its surroundings. Some newer theories such as string theory do postulate extra dimensions, but as our three-dimensional univers expands, it does not needs these extra dimensions to spread into.
In our universe, as on the surface of the balloon, everything receds from everything else. Thus, the big bang was not an explosion in space; it was more like an explosion of space. IT did not go off at a particular location and spread out from there into some imagined preexisting void. It occured everywhere at once.
If one imagines running th e clock backward in time, any given region of the universe shrinks and all galaxies in it get closer and closer until they smach together in a cosmic traffic jam -- the big bang. This traffic -jam analogy might imply local congestion that you could avoid if you listened to the traffic report on the radio. But the big bang was an unavoidable traffic jam. It was like having the surface of the Earth and all it's highways shrink while cares remained the same size. Eventually the cars will be bumper to bumper on every road. No radio broadcast is going to help you around that kind of traffic jam. The congestion is everywhere.
Similarly, the big biang happened everywhere--in the room in which you are reading this article, in a spot just to the left of Alpha Centauri, everywhere. It was not a bomb goin off at a particular spot that we can identify as the center of the explosion. Likewise, in the balloon analogy, there is no special place on the surface of the balloon that is the center of the expansion. The unbiquity of the big bank holds no matter how big the universe is or even whether it is finite or infinite in size. Cosmologists sometimes state that thte universe used to be the size of a grapefruit, but what they mean is that the part of the universe we can now see--our observable universe--used to be the size of a grapefruit.
Observers living in the Adromeda galaxy and beyond have their own observable universe that are different from but overlap with ours. Andromedans can see galaxies we cannot, overlap with ours. Andromedans can see galaxies we cannot, simply by virtue of being slightly closer to them, and vice versa. Their observable universe also used to be the size of a grapefruit. Thus, we can conceive of the early universe as a pile of overlapping grapefruits that stretches infinitely in all directions. Correspondingly, the idea that the big bang was "small" is misleading. The totality of space could be infinite. Shrink an infinite space by an arbitrary amount, and it is still infinite.
More to be posted later...
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
It is a good article.

I think it`s guilty of it`s own critique though..

Renowned physicists, authors of astronomy textbooks and prominent poularizers of science have made incorrect, misleading or easily misinterpreted statements about the expansion of the univers. Because expansion is the basis of the big bang model, these misunderstandings are fundamental.

This comparison is way off base as well...

The expansion of the universe is like Darwinian evolution in another curious way: most scientists think they understand it, but few agree on what it really means. A century and a half after On the Origin of Species, biologists still debate the mechanisms and implications (through not the reality) of Darwinism, while much of the public still flouders in pre-Darwinian cluenessness

The theory of evolution makes no claim about the beginning or first cause of life unlike the Big Bang theory which is based upon The Particle as a first cause.
Evolution makes no such claim because the evidence doesn`t take them back that far.
The lack of evidence doesn`t seem to have the same effect on cosmologists however.



 
linwood said:
The theory of evolution makes no claim about the beginning or first cause of life ...
The article didn't say anything to the contrary. How was the comparison (below) way off base?

The expansion of the universe is like Darwinian evolution in another curious way: most scientists think they understand it, but few agree on what it really means. A century and a half after On the Origin of Species, biologists still debate the mechanisms and implications (through not the reality) of Darwinism, while much of the public still flouders in pre-Darwinian cluenessness

I haven't had time to respond to your last replies, linwood. When I do, I'll try to condense everything down and address our main points of contention to avoid unnecessarily long posts. It appears that we need to discuss whether or not observations can be considered "evidence" for that which is calculated from those observations using our knowledge of physics. We also need to discuss in more depth the implications of your suggestion that "all the matter was in one part of space" (I'm still not sure what that means) or that "it was extremely dense, but not infinitely dense," and what evidence there might be to support such a suggestion.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
The article didn't say anything to the contrary. How was the comparison (below) way off base?

It`s not, my mistake.


It appears that we need to discuss whether or not observations can be considered "evidence" for that which is calculated from those observations using our knowledge of physics.


I`ve already defined what I mean by evidence in this thread.

"Direct observation of a phenomenon or the affects of a phenomenon."


We also need to discuss in more depth the implications of your suggestion that "all the matter was in one part of space"
(I'm still not sure what that means)

It`s pretty simple really but the discussion of it would be a strawman considering I just put it out there as an option and am not promoting the possibility.

or that "it was extremely dense, but not infinitely dense," and what evidence there might be to support such a suggestion.

My point is that "Extremely Dense" is not the same as "Infinitely Dense".
However there is no evidence for either as far as The Particle goes and that is my entire point.

Take your time Spinks, I`m still checking some thuings out on this topic.
I`m about to begin a book I picked up at the library..

"Concepts of Space, The History and Theories of Space in Physics"
By Max Jammer.

Do you know it?

It looks interesting and I got it because when skimming through it Jammer pretty much seems to stick to Einsteins concepts of space (Which I disagree with) so I figured maybe I`d learn something.
 
linwood said:
"Concepts of Space, The History and Theories of Space in Physics"
By Max Jammer.

Do you know it?
I'm not familiar with it. Sounds interesting though. :)

linwood said:
I`ve already defined what I mean by evidence in this thread.

"Direct observation of a phenomenon or the affects of a phenomenon."
This definition may need revision. We cannot directly observe X-Rays, and in order to say that what we do observe are the affects of X-Rays, we must assume the existence of X-Rays to begin with, which is circular reasoning.

I don't have time to say any more now, but to begin, I would suggest that in order for there to be evidence for a claim, the claim must make falsifiable predictions.
 
linwood said:
Ulbers paradox is a falacy.
Stars cease to exist as well as exist.
So do trees, and yet even in a relatively small forest one can see but a short distance before one's view is blocked by a trunk. ;)

linwood said:
However even if it were good evidence it is not evidence for a Big Bang.
It is evidence that the universe did not always exist in it`s present form.
It says nothing of origins, just that there were origins.
Be careful not to mistake evidence for proof. If basic Big Bang theory is correct, the universe should not have always existed in it's present form. Evidence that shows the universe has evolved may not *prove* all of big bang theory, but it does support it, and it makes other theories--like steady state theories, for example--look less plausible.

linwood said:
However this is not evidence for the current model of a "Big Bang" either.
It is merely evidence that the universe is expanding.
Evidence that the universe is expanding is, in fact, evidence for any theory that involves a currently-expanding universe.

* Homogeneity - fair data showing that our location in the Universe is not special.

This evidence for the current Bang model..how exactly?
So it`s not special, that does not automatically mean there was ever a "Bang".
The Big Bang model says that the universe is homogeneous, therefore data showing that the universe is homogeneous supports this model. If the data showed that some parts of the universe were dramatically different from other parts, it would cast serious doubts on the current Big Bang theory.


linwood said:
The rest of the evidence for a bang that you pasted is nothing more than evidence for "Redshift".
The fact that our universe is expanding.
Yes, and an expanding universe is part of Big Bang theory. If the universe weren't expanding, it would be pretty good evidence against the current model, and it would be good evidence for steady-state models.

linwood said:
It says nothing of the existence of an infinately infinitismal point of matter exploding some 14 billion years ago.
As I said in the OP of this thread, the Big Bang is NOT an "explosion". And it did NOT "happen 14 billion years ago." The Big Bang is still happening, even now (according to the theory). ;)
 

croak

Trickster
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Science/2002/10/article11.shtml
Interesting article about the Big Bang. Now, for a quote:

"أولم ير الذين كفروا أن السماوات والأرض كانتا رتقا ففتقناهما.." a (الأنبياء:30)
"Haven't the unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (in one singularity), then we clove both of them asunder.” (21:30)
In your opinion, does this describe the Big Bang? If not, what does it describe?

 

Pah

Uber all member
RearingArabian said:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Science/2002/10/article11.shtml
Interesting article about the Big Bang. Now, for a quote:

In your opinion, does this describe the Big Bang? If not, what does it describe?

I've never seen heaven and earth joined together.

And if so, the sparation of the universe does not correspond to the mechanics of the Big Bang. The quote appears to have two, fully formed, universes which we know is not the case for our beginning
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Mr Spinkles said:
Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. I'm not an expert, but I'll answer questions the best I can. Remember, a lot is not known right now....for example, we don't know exactly what caused the big bang. There are a number of theories, but nothing is certain...still, the basic answer for why we have something instead of nothing is because 'nothing' is unstable
Spoilsport!:biglaugh:
 
RearingArabian- I think that quote from the Quran describes the imaginative creation story of ancient Muslims, re-interpreted to fit with the paradigms of modern Muslims. It's so vague that I doubt any theory of the Earth or the universe's birth could be seen as directly contradicting it.
 

Pah

Uber all member
The Truth said:
Do you have any idea about what was happening before the Big Bang?
Yes. Two membranes comprised of stings collided. And each time a membrane collides with an other, a separate universe is created.
 

Fatmop

Active Member
Yes. Two membranes comprised of stings collided. And each time a membrane collides with an other, a separate universe is created.
String theory? Do you have any recommended reading on the subject? And where did the strings come from?

It seems like quite a few religious zealots have been jumping on the Big Bang as evidence of a designer lately.. I just attended a lecture by a creationist last night comprised ENTIRELY of the argument from incredulity, involving all sorts of mathematical constants and the Big Band theory.
What's odd is that he accepts that the Big Bang happened and that the universe is billions of years old, but doesn't accept that life could have formed on its own. How does he reconcile that? Couldn't God, in the very first moment of creation, have tweaked things just right so that he would never need to interfere on Earth and create life?
 

Pah

Uber all member
Fatmop said:
String theory? Do you have any recommended reading on the subject? And where did the strings come from?...
Michio Kaku's Parallel Worlds and Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe. It was Greens's book that illustrated multiple dimension so well that I understood it. Kaku's book provided, as introduction, a good, understandable history that led to string theory
 

Fatmop

Active Member
Thanks! I've got a growing list of things I need to hit up Amazon for.. or maybe just hit up my parents with a wish list. All that, and college too...
 
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