Communism vs Socialism

[Revoltingest]

Who else invaded America, killed its people, and took the land for themselves?
And why do you feel you need to bring in racism?
That's a tautology.

At this point, I'd be repeating myself.
Let's not derail the thread.

 

[Kooky]

That you prefer to blame whites as opposed to others.
That would be to miss the larger picture.

Who else invaded America, killed its people, and took the land for themselves?

What larger picture am I missing here?

EDIT: Nevermind

 

[Kooky]

At this point, I'd be repeating myself.
Let's not derail the thread.

Yes, let's get back to how America did not respect the private property of its Native population.

That's socialism, isn't it?

 

[metis]

The point of this is not to attack either Communism or Socialism but to understand what people see as the difference between the two.
Some say it is not well defined, or maybe it is.

We spend a lot of time on Socialism, not a lot of debates on Communism.

I've also heard that Communism is the natural evolution of Socialism. Is that true/still true? Or is it its own political/economic ideology completely independent of Communism?

There are various forms of socialism, thus communism is just one of them. Marxism is different in that it is not just a political/economic program.

 

[Valjean]

Evidence?
I don't believe that Reagan, having once been a union leader
himself, would want to destroy "unions & labor rights" as you
claim. To reduce the power of unions....that I'd believe

But the facts make it pretty clear. The early, liberal Reagan was replaced by a Neoliberal, repressive Reagan, who slashed the social safety net and undermined the working class, not just in the US, but in South and Central America, as well.

 

[Valjean]

Nonetheless, health care prices have risen greatly since
the 70s. They immediately greatly increased under
Obama as many providers weren't allowed to compete.
Blaming Republicans doesn't change that.

It's not lack of competition that drove US healthcare prices up. Competition keeping prices low sounds good on paper, but it never worked in the field.

Look at the Bismark system, which uses Insurance companies just like the US does, but with services and prices are strictly controlled by the state. It's essentially a non-profit system. It works, it keeps healthcare universally available and affordable. It's neither single payer or socialized.
Five Countries - Health Care Systems -- The Four Basic Models | Sick Around The World | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[Revoltingest]

But the facts make it pretty clear. The early, liberal Reagan was replaced by a Neoliberal, repressive Reagan, who slashed the social safety net and undermined the working class, not just in the US, but in South and Central America, as well.

The claim that he intended to destroy them is unevidenced.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not lack of competition that drove US healthcare prices up. Competition keeping prices low sounds good on paper, but it never worked in the field.

People I know lost their providers under Obamacare,
& saw prices skyrocket. Lose the cheap one, & go
to the expensive one? Competition (lack thereof)
appears to be at work. I wouldn't ignore regulatory
cost impositions either.

 

[Kooky]

The claim that he intended to destroy them is unevidenced.

He helped to almost literally destroy the Professional Air-Traffic Controllers Association in 1981. Given his reaction to their strike (such as issueing a lifetime employment ban to all strikers), I would say it's a fair conclusion to make that he intended to do just that.

Ronald Reagan fires 11,359 air-traffic controllers

On August 5, 1981, President Ronald Reagan begins firing 11,359 air-traffic controllers striking in violation of his order for them to return to work. The executive action, regarded as extreme by many, significantly slowed air travel for months.

Two days earlier, on August 3, almost 13,000 air-traffic controllers went on strike after negotiations with the federal government to raise their pay and shorten their workweek proved fruitless. The controllers complained of difficult working conditions and a lack of recognition of the pressures they face. Across the country, some 7,000 flights were canceled. The same day, President Reagan called the strike illegal and threatened to fire any controller who had not returned to work within 48 hours. Robert Poli, president of the Professional Air-Traffic Controllers Association (PATCO), was found in contempt by a federal judge and ordered to pay $1,000 a day in fines.

On August 5, an angry President Reagan carried out his threat, and the federal government began firing the 11,359 air-traffic controllers who had not returned to work. In addition, he declared a lifetime ban on the rehiring of the strikers by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). On August 17, the FAA began accepting applications for new air-traffic controllers, and on October 22 the Federal Labor Relations Authority decertified PATCO.

 

[Revoltingest]

He helped to almost literally destroy the Professional Air-Traffic Controllers Association in 1981.

Ronald Reagan fires 11,359 air-traffic controllers

I remember that.
I heartily approve of his actions, ie, firing
the illegally striking air traffic controllers.

 

[Kooky]

People I know lost their providers under Obamacare,
& saw prices skyrocket. Lose the cheap one, & go
to the expensive one? Competition (lack thereof)
appears to be at work. I wouldn't ignore regulatory
cost impositions either.

I don't think you could have realistically implemented a single payer healthcare system in the US without massive resistance from private health insurance providers. The Romneycare/Obamacare model was arguably a compromise that the industry could live with, while still fulfilling its primary policy purpose (to substantially increase coverage).

 

[Kooky]

I remember that.
I heartily approve of his actions, ie, firing
the illegally striking air traffic controllers.

We weren't debating your opinion of it, however, just the fact of his union busting.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think you could have realistically implemented a single payer healthcare system in the US without massive resistance from private health insurance providers. The Romneycare/Obamacare model was arguably a compromise that the industry could live with, while still fulfilling its primary policy purpose (to substantially increase coverage).

I favor a kind of single payer that allows a private option.
Basic health care service would be what government can
afford. People could buy insurance or direct service over
& above or instead of the government system.
Sure, it would be a hard sell, but I see it coming to pass.

 

[Revoltingest]

We weren't debating your opinion of it, however, just the fact of his union busting.

It didn't bust the union.
It survives to this day.
But illegal activities should be punished.
Firing those violating the law deserved it.

 

[Kooky]

It didn't bust the union.
It survives to this day.
But illegal activities should be punished.
Firing those violating the law deserved it.

That's your personal opinion, which is fair.

EDIT:
Personally I'd say that banning employees from striking or negotiating for better wages is unequal and unfair treatment of workers at the hands of the government.

If private businesses are allowed to renegotiate better conditions with a government, and employ the full gamut of measures to improve their leverage over politicians (such as lobbying or threatening to take their business elsewhere), then employees should be allowed to do the same.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's your personal opinion, which is fair.

I personally don't think most people follow laws they find morally reprehensible, and banning workers from striking or negotiating for better wages certainly would fall into the immoral category for me personally.

Those who violate the law should prepare for the consequences.
I've done it....felonious draft resistance.
Sometimes it's easy....sometimes one gets bit.

 

[Kooky]

Those who violate the law should prepare for the consequences.
I've done it....felonious draft resistance.
Sometimes it's easy....sometimes one gets bit.

Sure, but for me those laws remain unfair and unequal, and therefore should be changed.

As I said above in my edit, if private businesses are allowed to renegotiate better conditions with a government, and employ the full gamut of measures to improve their leverage over politicians (such as lobbying or threatening to take their business elsewhere), then employees should be allowed to do the same, which commonly includes strikes and similar peaceful measures.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, but for me those laws remain unfair and unequal, and therefore should be changed.

Sounds good to me.

As I said above in my edit, if private businesses are allowed to renegotiate better conditions with a government, and employ the full gamut of measures to improve their leverage over politicians (such as lobbying or threatening to take their business elsewhere), then employees should be allowed to do the same, which commonly includes strikes and similar peaceful measures.

Both sides compete for advantage.
That's a workable system.

 

[Nakosis]

There are various forms of socialism, thus communism is just one of them. Marxism is different in that it is not just a political/economic program.

Ok, I was just curious really to learn more about Marxism or Marx's view of communism.

 

[metis]

Ok, I was just curious really to learn more about Marxism or Marx's view of communism.

This is not a bad source: Marxism - Wikipedia

BTW, you might be interested in Neo-Marxist, some aspects which is similar to what Gandhi believed in: https: Neo-Marxism - Wikipedia