Comparison of Christianity and Judaism

[roger1440]

I read the Gospels differently than most Christians. I don’t attempt to Christianize the Old Testament. I take the opposite approach. I Judaize the Gospels. Why? It’s simple. They were written by Jews for Jews using Jewish ideas. It’s kind of a no brainer. What I don’t get is why nearly a billion Christians don’t see it that way. Then we have the Jews and everyone else to add to the mix.

 

[outhouse]

They were written by Jews for Jews using Jewish ideas
.

But knowing the definition of Judaism is the key.

In the context your using, it amounts to calling them people. To vague

 

[metis]

From your own link, maybe you missed that part.

No, I did not miss that part. The Hellenization process was not at all uniform, met sharp resistance from the more conservative, but even they were at least somewhat touched and affected by it. Many of the heavily Hellenized Jews later converted to Christianity, but a great many stayed as more liberal Jews operating within their own version of Judaism, and to a certain extent they won out post-Temple as the more liberal branch of the Pharisees pretty much dominated Judaism from that point on.

 

[roger1440]

The gospels use a much more creative type of allegory and symbolism because they were written during a more modern time then the Old Testament. The Jews were wrote these Gospels probably were influenced by whatever creative writing they came into contact with during the 1st century, Greeks, Romans whoever.

 

[metis]

I read the Gospels differently than most Christians. I don’t attempt to Christianize the Old Testament. I take the opposite approach. I Judaize the Gospels. Why? It’s simple. They were written by Jews for Jews using Jewish ideas. It’s kind of a no brainer. What I don’t get is why nearly a billion Christians don’t see it that way. Then we have the Jews and everyone else to add to the mix.

I agree, but I don't understand what you're saying in the final sentence.

 

[roger1440]

I agree, but I don't understand what you're saying in the final sentence.

I have to leave for work now. It will give me some time to figure out how to word it correctly.

 

[outhouse]

No, I did not miss that part. The Hellenization process was not at all uniform, met sharp resistance from the more conservative, but even they were at least somewhat touched and affected by it. Many of the heavily Hellenized Jews later converted to Christianity, but a great many stayed as more liberal Jews operating within their own version of Judaism, and to a certain extent they won out post-Temple as the more liberal branch of the Pharisees pretty much dominated Judaism from that point on.

Christianity absorbed Hellensitic Judaism by our best accounts.

Hellenist loved Judaism and had flocked to it in droves during ths period. They however were not happy about being labeled a Jew.

Many stayed Proselytes, many fully converted. It was sort of a wild wild west show towards the end though. Traditional Jews hwoever viewed these Hellenist as perverting Judaism. There were many pious Jews, all of the Zealots for instance, many of the Pharisees as well followed this traditional view.

The amount Judaism was held in Hellenistic arms varied from one geographic place to the next.

MY point is the factual division between Hellenism and Judaism that was the seed that chrsitiaity was born from and in existance before Jesus was born.

Herods eagle is one example.
The hated Saducees
The Zealots or Galileans
Jesus action in the temple.
Herodian oppression.

All aspects of this division.

 

[metis]

The gospels use a much more creative type of allegory and symbolism because they were written during a more modern time then the Old Testament. The Jews were wrote these Gospels probably were influenced by whatever creative writing they came into contact with during the 1st century, Greeks, Romans whoever.

I would suggest it's maybe be more of a draw. Reread the Psalms and the Songs of Solomon, for examples.

 

[metis]

Christianity absorbed Hellensitic Judaism by our best accounts.

Hellenist loved Judaism and had flocked to it in droves during ths period. They however were not happy about being labeled a Jew.

Many stayed Proselytes, many fully converted. It was sort of a wild wild west show towards the end though. Traditional Jews hwoever viewed these Hellenist as perverting Judaism. There were many pious Jews, all of the Zealots for instance, many of the Pharisees as well followed this traditional view.

The amount Judaism was held in Hellenistic arms varied from one geographic place to the next.

MY point is the factual division between Hellenism and Judaism that was the seed that chrsitiaity was born from and in existance before Jesus was born.

Herods eagle is one example.
The hated Saducees
The Zealots or Galileans
Jesus action in the temple.
Herodian oppression.

All aspects of this division.

Too much of the above is overstated, plus there are some errors, and I'll just leave it at that.

 

[outhouse]

Too much of the above is overstated, plus there are some errors, and I'll just leave it at that.

It is only because 1. you don't understand it fully, or 2. You cannot refute it.


Not one thing was overstated, in any way. I can source every sentence.

There is one spelling error though.

 

[roger1440]

I agree, but I don't understand what you're saying in the final sentence.

The Jews have been telling Christians for nearly 2000 years the Christians have it all wrong. Jesus is not the promised Jewish Messiah. Have Jews ever considered maybe; just maybe the Christians have understood the Gospels all wrong. The Gospels are Jewish writings not Gentile. Most Jews read the Gospels with a prejudice. They have a preconceived idea of what the Gospels are about before they even pick them up to read. It’s been drilled into their head from Christians for nearly two millennium; some hot Jewish chick was knocked up by God. This child grew up to save mankind from their sins and so on and so on. I don’t think the gospels are about that at all. I encourage Jews in this forum to read the Gospels for themselves. But before doing so the reader must forget everything from the church and start fresh.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don’t think the gospels are about that at all.

Oh, really? So what are they really about, since all Christendom has apparently been so mistaken since the beginning?

 

[roger1440]

Oh, really? So what are they really about, since all Christendom has apparently been so mistaken since the beginning?

Scroll up and read my posts from last night

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Most Jews read the Gospels with a prejudice. They have a preconceived idea of what the Gospels are about before they even pick them up to read.

Yet another expert on "most Jews."

 

[roger1440]

Yet another expert on "most Jews."

I’m not signaling outing the Jews. Most people in general only know of the orthodox interpretation of the Gospels. They don’t have to read the Gospels to know this interpretation. All they have to do is turn on the TV in the month of December, read the newspaper, listen to the radio or listen to a Christian. All I’m saying is read the Gospels for yourself. Jews have an upper hand. The Gospels use Jewish scripture as a platform for its ideas. Most observant Jews know more about Jewish scripture then Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. I’m not saying the orthodox view is right or wrong. That’s another topic. All I’m saying is that there is more than one view. A person would have to read the Gospels for themselves to see this.

 

[metis]

The Jews have been telling Christians for nearly 2000 years the Christians have it all wrong. Jesus is not the promised Jewish Messiah. Have Jews ever considered maybe; just maybe the Christians have understood the Gospels all wrong. The Gospels are Jewish writings not Gentile. Most Jews read the Gospels with a prejudice. They have a preconceived idea of what the Gospels are about before they even pick them up to read. It’s been drilled into their head from Christians for nearly two millennium; some hot Jewish chick was knocked up by God. This child grew up to save mankind from their sins and so on and so on. I don’t think the gospels are about that at all. I encourage Jews in this forum to read the Gospels for themselves. But before doing so the reader must forget everything from the church and start fresh.

Jews are all over the spectrum on this, and some are quite well informed on Christian theology, some are not, and there's plenty of in-between. Generally speaking, my experience is that Jews generally know more about Christian theology than Christians know about Jewish theology, largely because American and western culture in general is dominated by Christians.

For example, how many t.v. programs and specials deal with a specifically Jewish theme versus a specifically Christian theme? Most of us know quite a bit about Christmas and Easter, but how many Christians know much about Yom Kippur or Sukkoth?

As for me, I'm very familiar with the Christian scriptures and theology.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Most Jews read the Gospels with a prejudice.

I’m not signaling outing the Jews.

Got it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

...jews are all over the spectrum on this...

Understatement of the year. Makes me want to post a link to Charles Leibman.

 

[roger1440]

Jews are all over the spectrum on this, and some are quite well informed on Christian theology, some are not, and there's plenty of in-between. Generally speaking, my experience is that Jews generally know more about Christian theology than Christians know about Jewish theology, largely because American and western culture in general is dominated by Christians.

For example, how many t.v. programs and specials deal with a specifically Jewish theme versus a specifically Christian theme? Most of us know quite a bit about Christmas and Easter, but how many Christians know much about Yom Kippur or Sukkoth?

As for me, I'm very familiar with the Christian scriptures and theology.

Yeah, so true. A few years ago a Catholic coworker had made a derogatory comment about Jews during the Christmas season. I don’t remember what he had said, but I do remember what I had said. I had said to him, “Jesus was Jewish”. He then said to me, “No he wasn’t, he was Christian.” Well, after that comment I had lost interest in the conversation. I really hate entering a battle of wits with someone, especially someone who he unarmed.

 

[Levite]

I think we need to make a distinction between suffering as a result of someone else's sin and being punished for someone else's sin, but I do understand what you're getting at. It's an interesting question. Can you flesh out what the problem is from the Jewish perspective?

It seems to me as if, looking at Genesis 3, the consequences suffered by Adam and Eve extended to all humanity--because at the time, Adam and Eve were the only two humans in existence. And if Adam and Eve suffered a change in their state of being as a result of their sin, then would this altered human experience not be passed onto us?

That's the thing: the "consequences" suffered by Adam and Eve are not spiritual, they simply represent the physical hardships of life in the non-Edenic world. The only "change of state" Adam and Eve suffered was their displacement from Eden into the regular world.

Remember that for Jews, sin is not a condition, it is an action.

Our concept of sin is oriented around our conception of justice, since for us, a sin is a transgression of the laws of the Torah. In Deuteronomy 24, it says
לא יומתו אבות על בנים ובנים לא יומתו על אבות איש בחטאו יומתו׃, which is to say You shall not execute parents for the acts of their children, nor children shall you execute for the acts of their parents: a person shall be executed only for his own sin. And as the Rabbis teach us, this is obviously not referring only to capital punishment, but any kind of culpability. And if this is the standard to which we must be held, how could it be possible that God be held to a lower standard. The standard objection to this line of thought is Exodus 34:6-7
ויעבר ה' על פניו ויקרא ה' ה' אל רחום וחנון ארך אפים ורב חסד ואמת׃ נצר חסד לאלפים נשא עון ופשע וחטאה ונקה לא ינקה פקד עון אבות על בנים ועל בני בנים על שלשים ועל רבעים׃
And YHVH passed before him, crying out: YHVH, YHVH, a God gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, full of lovingkindness and faithfulness, giving forth lovingkindness to the thousandth remove, forgiving sin and fault and transgression, but surely not clearing them altogether, remembering the sins of parents upon children and on children's children to the third and fourth remove.
The Rabbis explain to us that this must be punctuated slightly differently, to read And YHVH passed before him, crying out: YHVH, YHVH, a God gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, full of lovingkindness and faithfulness, giving forth lovingkindness to the thousandth remove, forgiving sin and fault and transgression, to clear them altogether; yet not clearing altogther but rather remembering the sins of parents upon children and on children's children to the third and fourth remove. Which is to say that God always forgives the sins of any who commit sins and then do teshuvah. However, when a parent teaches their child to sin, and that child does not reject the teaching, but instead, of their own thought and volition embraces the doing of the same sin which their parent has taught them to do, they are judged commensurately more severely, since they should have known better, seeing the evil that their parent did. Yet even such children, if they abjure the sins taught them by their parents, and do not repeat those same actions, or, having done them, do teshuvah, they are also forgiven.

As for Adam and Eve, we are taught that they had the same free will, the same ability to transgress as any human beings-- if they did not, they would never have thought to disobey God or eat the fruit. So nothing has changed about human nature from them to us. Being cast out of Eden was a consequence of their behavior, and the "curses" that accompanied it no more than describe life in this world. But those consequences have nothing to do with whether God would have or did forgive them. Some of our midrashim say that Adam and Eve did teshuvah, and were forgiven. Some say otherwise. The text itself does not say either way.

But Jewish thought is deeply founded on the ideas that no one is more or less prone to sin than anyone else, or ever has been so, and that every person can and will sin because people-- being people-- will inevitably do wrong things from time to time, even if only by accident, because we are all imperfect. And God understands this, since He created us that way; and gave us the process of teshuvah, and revealed Himself to us as an always forgiving God, because He does not expect perfection of us.