Concerning God: What do you mean, when you say, "I know for certain that he does/does not exist."?

[tkdrocks]

No, it means you don't know what the hell knowledge is. Knowledge requires some demonstrable basis in fact to exist. You can't just make an unsupported claim like "I know leprechauns are real" and expect to be at all credible. You have to be able to back it up with more than your say-so and blind faith.

Wait! What? Leprechauns aren't real? I just knew that pot of gold was just around the corner.

Cephus, who were you responding to?

 

[ChristineES]

(I am sure that this question has been asked before on this forum, but the members come and go. So, I think it would be fun to serve it up again.)

To say that you know something "for certain" or with absolute knowledge, is pretty strong language. So when you say that you know this for certain, what does that mean exactly?

• Does it mean that you are fully convinced?
• Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)
• Is it just strong faith?
• Something else?

I will share my thoughts later, but I thought that I would just get the ball rolling first.

I think it is most prudent to say "I believe G-d exists", to show respect for those who don't believe and to acknowledge the fact there is no scientific evidence (evidence that can be proven by experimentation and all that.
That said: People who say "I know there's a G-d" is usually only speaking for himself or herself. They have their own evidences. What they are truly saying is that "I strongly believe there's a G-d" (which is very strong faith as apposed to weak or weaker faith).
For the most part, I think the majority are just, as you put it in your question, fully convinced.

 

[tkdrocks]

Good question. Let me see..


For me, it has to do with feeling (as described above) and it has to do with common sense. By feeling, I'd have to experience it first hand and live that experience (do something, as in prayer, ritual), to be involved to know my feelings are concrete or are they fluff.

With God, being to me God is life, it is common sense. It is without "God" there is no life. Rather than God creating life, He (if you like) IS life. So my life, your life, everything living and that exists are God. (the personification of life not pantheism).

On that note you ask:

1. Does it mean that you are fully convinced?

Yes. I am fully convinced because I know that I am breathing, my heart is beating, and so forth and I and no human can create this out of thin air. I know because I can see creation just by watching a baby being born. I believe we come from the water and I can see God in the waters as we come from "Him" as He is the water that nourishes us and births us.

I know because I have experienced and feel the blessings and warnings that my deceased family has given me as I start talking with them more. The communication between us is supported by the spirit that keeps us together as a family--and to many people ,that spirit is God.

Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)

Yes. In addition to above, when I see someone who lives in their faith, their behavior changes, their speech does, and how they see life. These are evidence that the spirit (or however one calls him or her or it) is working through that person to live.

I see evidence in the people in history who talk about their own experience with their God.

I see the evidence more strongly in how people change rather than written books.

Is it just strong faith?

It is strong faith.

Something else?

Knowing God exists is to have a relationship with life, nothing more.

From what I read here, you are describing the Creator God, maybe even a deist definition. Do you see him as more than that?

 

[Cephus]

Wait! What? Leprechauns aren't real? I just knew that pot of gold was just around the corner.

Cephus, who were you responding to?

The OP of course. There are no other quotations.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I agree with you. Most people determine how they feel about a topic and then look for evidence to support their view. Consider a topic like global warming, most people make up their mind what they believe and then find the facts and experts to support them.

It's no less than that with religion. At one time, I was sure that G-d didn't exist and I had the facts to support that belief. Now I am sure that G-d exists and I have the facts to support it. However, none of my "facts" can be used to persuade anyone else, people will believe what they want to believe.

Likewise, I used to be convinced God didn't exist, now I'm pretty sure he does.. so all I proved is that my opinions are totally unreliable!

On this and global warming though, looking to support your own 'preference' with your own understanding is still better than adopting someone elses- or 'true because they say so'

 

[tkdrocks]

The OP of course. There are no other quotations.

Oh, I see. I didn't ask what "Knowledge" was, I asked what people meant when they said, "I know". It is really an exercise in getting folks to clarify their words as well as explore why they believe what they believe. Make sense?

 

[tkdrocks]

Likewise, I used to be convinced God didn't exist, now I'm pretty sure he does.. so all I proved is that my opinions are totally unreliable!

On this and global warming though, looking to support your own 'preference' with your own understanding is still better than adopting someone elses- or 'true because they say so'

I really don't want to make this a global warming thread, but I do tend to agree with you on that. One of the requirements, for me on something that is factual and provable is that it needs to be predictive. So far, all of the doomsday predictions from the climatists have failed to come to fruition. There is also a lot of money to be made by those proposing the idea. So, I do not consider myself a climate change denier, but rather, a skeptic.

 

[Akivah]

Generally, when I see the word, "fact", I am thinking, by definition of something that is verifiable or falsifiable. Do any of your facts meet this criteria? (Friendly question, just curious).

The facts that I used when I both disbelieved and believed weren't verifiable.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I really don't want to make this a global warming thread, but I do tend to agree with you on that. One of the requirements, for me on something that is factual and provable is that it needs to be predictive. So far, all of the doomsday predictions from the climatists have failed to come to fruition. There is also a lot of money to be made by those proposing the idea. So, I do not consider myself a climate change denier, but rather, a skeptic.

Yes, I'd think the whole point of science is not having to take anybody's word for it? So using the word 'science' to mean 'unquestionable' is entirely unscientific..

To relate to beliefs in general.. the idea that bad weather is caused by humans upsetting nature is probably the oldest superstition known to mankind. I grew up during a cold spell in the 70's and hence it was called global cooling then, so I don't think the belief will ever disappear- or those eager to accept appeasing sacrifices on Gaia's behalf...

 

[tkdrocks]

The facts that I used when I both disbelieved and believed weren't verifiable.

Then maybe another word, besides 'fact' would be a better fit? Perhaps you could give an example?

 

[Akivah]

Oh, I see. I didn't ask what "Knowledge" was, I asked what people meant when they said, "I know". It is really an exercise in getting folks to clarify their words as well as explore why they believe what they believe. Make sense?

G-d doesn't fit in a test tube, so the regular scientific tests don't apply to G-d. I trust in the test of generations and national revelation.

 

[tkdrocks]

G-d doesn't fit in a test tube, so the regular scientific tests don't apply to G-d. I trust in the test of generations and national revelation.

Not looking for science, perhaps some logic. So, how do you know which revelations are valid? Our Muslim friends also have generational and national revelations. Why do you accept one set over another? Another question could be why do you reject other revelations?

 

[Ouroboros]

To say that you know something "for certain" or with absolute knowledge, is pretty strong language. So when you say that you know this for certain, what does that mean exactly?

• Does it mean that you are fully convinced?
• Do you know because of some specific evidence? (If so, please share)
• Is it just strong faith?
• Something else?

I was a Christian for 30 years. Some of the time, I felt certain that God existed. At some times, I doubted. Then I was an atheist for 10 years, denying the existence of God, however, fully aware that I couldn't know for sure, but I was quite certain. Then I realized that the term "God" is a label that has many different meanings to different people, and what we consider to be God or not is something personal. So, based on how you define God, God can exist and be very convincing, but other definitions are vague and hard to be convinced about. Now, I'm kind'a in the pantheist camp, but more of a naturalistic kind, with a mix of some other things (Brahman etc), but in general, I think that when I say that Reality is God, I'm certain that Reality exists, therefore based on my definition, God also exists without a doubt. But that's just by going by my own definition.

 

[Cephus]

Oh, I see. I didn't ask what "Knowledge" was, I asked what people meant when they said, "I know". It is really an exercise in getting folks to clarify their words as well as explore why they believe what they believe. Make sense?

And I was pointing out that saying that you know something that you cannot possibly claim to have knowledge of is absurd. It's cool to discuss what people believe and especially why they believe it, but absolutely nobody knows that any gods exist, that's just the way it works.

 

[Quintessence]

To say that you know something "for certain" or with absolute knowledge, is pretty strong language. So when you say that you know this for certain, what does that mean exactly?

It depends on context, to some extent. To speak in the general, if I say I know something for certain, I am speaking solely for myself, not making some ridiculous proclamation of Absolute Truth. That which I say I know for certain is that which is beyond a reasonable doubt. Or, to put it another way, to question that which is certain is to ask a stupid question. It derails the mind into extremes of skepticism that are typically a frivolous waste of time and just plain stupid. You know, things like asking "am I really breathing air right now?"

As for how you reach that point of beyond reasonable doubt or stupid question land, nobody has some precise algorithm in their brains for determining that. That which we are certain of stems from our life experiences, and we've all got different life experiences. What makes one person certain will not be so for another. And although I might describe myself as fussy when making proclamations of certainty, external parties might not perceive my standards that way. So I'm not sure how useful it will be to go into that in any detail.

But to give a specific example, since I suspect you created this thread to specifically address god-concepts, my gods are one of those things I'm certain of. Setting aside that asking "is that real" is always a stupid question in my ontological philosophy, it mostly boils down to how I define gods. They're defined in a way that places them quite beyond any reasonable doubt. Asking if my gods are "real" is quite literally the same as asking "is the sun real" or "is learning real" or "am I really breathing air right now." Such questions have a tendency to make me want to facepalm.

 

[tkdrocks]

All of the above. Seriously, when someone says they 'know' something, it's always subjective. Unless someone is talking about, say, the sun, or something, as has been mentioned. Take 'specific eveidence'. A theist could say, there is evidence all over. Like, everything came from 'nothing'? Does that even make sense? It seems incredulous to not believe in a deity, does it not? Does it make sense to not believe in a Deity? Do you have any evidence for there not being a deity??
have a nice day, /disciple

In fairness, I did say that they know for certain, which is stronger than 'I know'. Those extra words do suggest that it is beyond subjective (in their mind, anyway).

I may be assuming incorrectly by your member name (disciple) that you are a Christian. Please correct me if I am in error. And you have asked me if I have any evidence for there not being a deity. On that question, I think that you have mis-identified my point of view. It may sound like semantics, but I have never stated that god does not exist. What I will express is that I do not have a belief in any gods. It sounds like you are making a case for a deist God or Creator. I have no problem with that, but I am going to make an assumption that you define God much differently than just a creator; perhaps even a personal God that from time-to-time, interacts with the physical world.

One more point, your question about, "Does it makes sense that something comes from nothing", and "We are here, so there must be a deity." Is what I call an "Argument from lack of Imagination". Because you can't imagine something, might mean that you are trying to find an answer to the unanswerable.

I am actually very comfortable with being in the "I don't know" position, when it comes to the origin of the universe. If it was a deist/creator that created the universe, setting it in motion, then not having any more interaction, that's fine. There really isn't any way to prove/disprove. However, if you are making a case for a personally involved God that still interacts with the physical world, then I think we should look for those breaches into our reality as they should be measurable.

 

[outhouse]

Asking if my gods are "real" is quite literally the same as asking "is the sun real" or "is learning real" or "am I really breathing air right now."

Im sorry, I don't see a fair comparison to 3 possible facts, and something that may not even exist.

Maybe you worded it wrong?

Are you reducing everything to the point of being subjective?

 

[Quintessence]

Im sorry, I don't see a fair comparison to 3 possible facts, and something that may not even exist.

Maybe you worded it wrong?

Are you reducing everything to the point of being subjective?

I suspect the reason it doesn't seem "fair" to you is because you don't recall how I understand the gods, and your default assumptions about the nature of the gods is dramatically different from mine. That, and you also have a very different manner of defining reality. I'm not sure I'm in the mood to get into it with you, but no, I didn't word it wrong, and no, the point is not to "reduce" everything to being subjective. I very much meant what I said. Discard your assumptions about what gods are - which are probably steeped in classical monotheist theology - and think about what I said. If you've got a broader knowledge of theology and various cultural understandings of gods, you'll get it eventually.

In other news, the sun may not even exist...

 

[psychoslice]

I feel that in truth no one really knows anything, all we can know is what our senses let us know, we are in this world but we have never truly known this world, we can only know what our senses let us know. Other creatures of the world also only know what their senses let them know. So in truth we know nothing, we think we do but we don't.

 

[tkdrocks]

I suspect the reason it doesn't seem "fair" to you is because you don't recall how I understand the gods, and your default assumptions about the nature of the gods is dramatically different from mine. That, and you also have a very different manner of defining reality. I'm not sure I'm in the mood to get into it with you, but no, I didn't word it wrong, and no, the point is not to "reduce" everything to being subjective. I very much meant what I said. Discard your assumptions about what gods are - which are probably steeped in classical monotheist theology - and think about what I said. If you've got a broader knowledge of theology and various cultural understandings of gods, you'll get it eventually.

In other news, the sun may not even exist...

I feel that in truth no one really knows anything, all we can know is what our senses let us know, we are in this world but we have never truly known this world, we can only know what our senses let us know. Other creatures of the world also only know what their senses let them know. So in truth we know nothing, we think we do but we don't.

This question is directed at people that would say that they know for certain that God exists or does not exist. If you do not fit in that category, then this question is not for you.