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Concerning Patriarchy

Thanda

Well-Known Member
A recent thread on this forum brought up an old issue I have had with the use of the term Patriarchy. While discussing the influence of dress in female attractiveness the idea was put forward that patriarchy is the driving force behind women feeling pressure to spend a lot more time and effort on their physical appearance than men.

This to me served as a special case of the more general trend I have noticed among many feministically (new word) minded people who generally are able to find the patriarchal cause of just about any evil or injustice in the world (mild hyperbole - you get the picture:p). To me it almost appears to be the classic case of person with only a hammer seeing every problem as a nail. It is one of the things I strongly object to in modern feminist discourse where it appears every problem's root can be reduced to two or three causes ("problematic masculinity" and male privilege in addition to patriarchy).

Now if there is anything I am sure of is that human beings are very complex creatures and as such their relations with each other are bound to be complex. Therefore almost any theory a person can come up with to describe why things are the way they currently are is almost always going to address only a subset of the issue.

I personally subscribe to the belief that a lot of human problems are the result of some of the common basic needs and urges most of us possess. And so before ascribing a problem to a grand conspiracy like a religion or a political party or a patriarchy I like to just see whether the problem cannot be adequately described with these basic needs and emotions.

E.g. why do women worry so much about their appearance - especially when compared to men? Maybe it's because they (naturally) want to attract men and they have learned by generations of experience that men are more visually stimulated (than women). So how they portray their features has an important impact of whether and how much of men's interest they attract.
Conversely men have learned by generations of experience that their six-packs don't have as much impact on women as a woman's breast has on them. And so they have devised other ways of impressing women (in my culture it was customary for men to say poems they were trying to woo).

This analysis may not be perfect but it does a much better job of explaining the phenomenon than patriarchy since it is observable in matriarchal and egalitarian societies as well as patriarchal ones.

So do you agree that there is an overuse and misuse of gender study terms like patriarchy, male privilege, problematic masculinity etc by many professed feminists?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
E.g. why do women worry so much about their appearance - especially when compared to men? Maybe it's because they (naturally) want to attract men and they have learned by generations of experience that men are more visually stimulated (than women). So how they portray their features has an important impact of whether and how much of men's interest they attract.
It's not just attracting a potential mate. Because of the NC transgender law, there are incidents popping up where cis-women have been challenged, questioned, and kicked out for not looking feminine enough. It's that our society has never really gotten over "the looks" of a woman as being a marker of value. It's the fact that women are even supposed to wear makeup during "higher" social functions such as job interviews, legal dealings, and other formal environments. Men never really have to put that much effort into their appearance, but a woman is always supposed to show she has put time and effort into hers.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
It's not just attracting a potential mate. Because of the NC transgender law, there are incidents popping up where cis-women have been challenged, questioned, and kicked out for not looking feminine enough. It's that our society has never really gotten over "the looks" of a woman as being a marker of value. It's the fact that women are even supposed to wear makeup during "higher" social functions such as job interviews, legal dealings, and other formal environments. Men never really have to put that much effort into their appearance, but a woman is always supposed to show she has put time and effort into hers.

Sure, no arguments from me. The question is if patriarchy (as another poster posited) is the cause of this greater emphasis of physical beauty for women or whether there are better (i.e. less flawed) factors involved.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think our instinctive preferences are the true drive of what men think makes women look attractive, and as a result, women who are looking for men do their best to live up to that expectations when desiring a mate. Men largely do the same when seeking partners, and although the expectations are different they certainly exist. This is one of the areas where I think women and men are both responsible for the trends. People dress in ways that they feel will make them attractive to whoever they are interested in -- it's really that simple. Culture also has an influence as well, and race also is a factor in this.

Male privilege, specifically male white privilege, is a lie. We are the only group who cannot voice our opinions for fear of being seen as racist, even if the numbers back the claims being made. Hell, I'm probably a racist right now for someone just saying this. Anything connected to "white culture" (I use that term loosely, there are very few racially homogeneous cultures...) is being destroyed systematically, even though in many cases it is better off than what it is being replaced with. To clarify, I promote tolerance just not the type that feeds itself on creating protected classes and encouraging the divide by injecting hate into the conversation about other people. You cannot have hatred of someone and tolerance at the same time, mutually exclusive propositions. :)

Gender study is a great way to go to school, and come out much poorer intellectually than you went in. The studies that are used for the source material are so poorly researched that it is literally a waste of your money. Campuses literally have rubber-stamped anything coming from the super-left and added it to the curriculum even if it wasn't true. Currently, there are academics revolting against the poorly researched information and it's coming from the top -- expect backlash here as the falsehood is stripped away. For now, it is good enough for me to know the academics are having issues with the notions presented and that for now I will have to fly the white flag and wait.

I think there are severe gender problems, but most of them are in the Sharia law side of the world where the poor women there haven't even got to feminism 1.0 (like, they get to vote... etc). I think you could spend small amounts of resources there and get the greatest return. Men in the west consider women equal or even better in many ways than themselves typically. Often you will find the same far left championing tolerance for Muslims and Islam while spewing feministic rhetoric out the other side of their face. It leaves me baffled, it truly does.

Before you dis patriarchy, realize that it ended slavery, decided to treat women as equal, and even amazingly depreciates itself to allow new cultures and ideas to exist -- and when those cultures make their case, has taken them into the fold and nurtured them. It's not perfect, but it's not all bad either.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I do agree that there is an overuse of politicized social theory, especially when it comes to gender/sex issues between males and females. It's a very complex thing that has elements of social theory and hard science.
E.g. why do women worry so much about their appearance - especially when compared to men? Maybe it's because they (naturally) want to attract men and they have learned by generations of experience that men are more visually stimulated (than women). So how they portray their features has an important impact of whether and how much of men's interest they attract.
Conversely men have learned by generations of experience that their six-packs don't have as much impact on women as a woman's breast has on them. And so they have devised other ways of impressing women (in my culture it was customary for men to say poems they were trying to woo).
Men obsess over their looks to a great extent, too. There's many men who have eating disorders, are addicted to/obsessed with exercise, bodybuilding, steroids, etc. Both men and women are having their self-esteem wrecked by corporate advertising and feel great pressure to look a certain way, which is unattainable for the majority of people. It's just that the effects of this are paid attention to more in society when it comes to women, but men's body issues and mental health problems don't get much attention, for various reasons.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I still believe women style their appearance more to impress other women than men.
The males are the ones that typically need to work to impress a potential mate.

I agree, another reason why patriarchy is an inadequate explanation for the phenomenon.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I do agree that there is an overuse of politicized social theory, especially when it comes to gender/sex issues between males and females. It's a very complex thing that has elements of social theory and hard science.

Men obsess over their looks to a great extent, too. There's many men who have eating disorders, are addicted to/obsessed with exercise, bodybuilding, steroids, etc. Both men and women are having their self-esteem wrecked by corporate advertising and feel great pressure to look a certain way, which is unattainable for the majority of people. It's just that the effects of this are paid attention to more in society when it comes to women, but men's body issues and mental health problems don't get much attention, for various reasons.

I agree that there are a lot more men suffering than society admits. However I do not think they are as many as women. E.g. I can spend several consecutive days without ever looking at the mirror (which often leaves my belt off-centre:)).
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I agree that there are a lot more men suffering than society admits. However I do not think they are as many as women. E.g. I can spend several consecutive days without ever looking at the mirror (which often leaves my belt off-centre:)).
You can't know because men have a tendency not to talk about that stuff. They bottle it up. Suicide, for example, is a bigger problem with men than it is with women.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
We are the only group who cannot voice our opinions for fear of being seen as racist, even if the numbers back the claims being made. Hell, I'm probably a racist right now for someone just saying this.
That is not true. You can indeed voice your opinions, and unless they are racist, people aren't going to call you racist. And if they do, it's true that some people are eager to scream discrimination.
Anything connected to "white culture" (I use that term loosely, there are very few racially homogeneous cultures...) is being destroyed systematically, even though in many cases it is better off than what it is being replaced with.
There isn't even a "white culture."
Before you dis patriarchy, realize that it ended slavery, decided to treat women as equal, and even amazingly depreciates itself to allow new cultures and ideas to exist
It didn't end slavery, and news cultures and ideas are always coming into existence, and wanting a pat on the back for treating women as equally worthy as a pat on the back as taking care of your kids (it's not).
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
You can't know because men have a tendency not to talk about that stuff. They bottle it up. Suicide, for example, is a bigger problem with men than it is with women.

Well I'll be honest and say I don't know the major issues that lead to male suicide. But I'd be surprised if it was negative body image.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Typically perceived failures of social responsibilities and expectations, especially when it comes to employment and financial issues.

https://psmag.com/why-men-kill-themselves-6c923b765c31#.n03j27nny

Indeed, because male "attractiveness" is closely tied to financial achievement. And thus, while women need to spend hours making themselves beautiful to "make it" (by societal norms) men have to make a lot try make attain as much status as possible (which in a capitalistic environment means more money). Thus issues of body image are not as prevalent among men as they are among women.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Indeed, because male "attractiveness" is closely tied to financial achievement. And thus, while women need to spend hours making themselves beautiful to "make it" (by societal norms) men have to make a lot try make attain as much status as possible (which in a capitalistic environment means more money). Thus issues of body image are not as prevalent among men as they are among women.
Social responsibilities and finances are not body-image issues.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A recent thread on this forum brought up an old issue I have had with the use of the term Patriarchy. While discussing the influence of dress in female attractiveness the idea was put forward that patriarchy is the driving force behind women feeling pressure to spend a lot more time and effort on their physical appearance than men.

This to me served as a special case of the more general trend I have noticed among many feministically (new word) minded people who generally are able to find the patriarchal cause of just about any evil or injustice in the world (mild hyperbole - you get the picture:p). To me it almost appears to be the classic case of person with only a hammer seeing every problem as a nail. It is one of the things I strongly object to in modern feminist discourse where it appears every problem's root can be reduced to two or three causes ("problematic masculinity" and male privilege in addition to patriarchy).

Now if there is anything I am sure of is that human beings are very complex creatures and as such their relations with each other are bound to be complex. Therefore almost any theory a person can come up with to describe why things are the way they currently are is almost always going to address only a subset of the issue.

I personally subscribe to the belief that a lot of human problems are the result of some of the common basic needs and urges most of us possess. And so before ascribing a problem to a grand conspiracy like a religion or a political party or a patriarchy I like to just see whether the problem cannot be adequately described with these basic needs and emotions.

E.g. why do women worry so much about their appearance - especially when compared to men? Maybe it's because they (naturally) want to attract men and they have learned by generations of experience that men are more visually stimulated (than women). So how they portray their features has an important impact of whether and how much of men's interest they attract.
Conversely men have learned by generations of experience that their six-packs don't have as much impact on women as a woman's breast has on them. And so they have devised other ways of impressing women (in my culture it was customary for men to say poems they were trying to woo).

This analysis may not be perfect but it does a much better job of explaining the phenomenon than patriarchy since it is observable in matriarchal and egalitarian societies as well as patriarchal ones.

So do you agree that there is an overuse and misuse of gender study terms like patriarchy, male privilege, problematic masculinity etc by many professed feminists?
Aye, this blaming all ills on patriarchy is lame.
Btw, from what Mrs Revolt tells me about her company, tis women who sternly enforce dress standards of other women.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am sure that the giants and martyrs of the abolitionist and suffrage movement will find that claim to be more than a little shallow and condescending.

I find it condescending to assume that they would take offense to any statement I'd made especially when it is abundantly clear where I stand. But, if it offends them, good. People need offending when they are nonsensical.
 
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