Concrete examples of "miraculous" frauds, illusions, and mass delusions

[Mr Spinkles]

And then there is one of the oldest running religious hoaxes: the Shroud of Turin. An Italian scientist has now shown how it could have been produced in the Middle Ages, which is when scientific analysis shows the shroud was produced. A Jesus-era burial shroud has now been discovered that shows how different the shrouds produced then were from the medieval Turn Shroud. But the scam will not die simply because people choose not to believe the counterevidence.

You know what the other reason is, Copernicus? A failure of imagination and a sense of proportion. It takes some imagination to come up with natural explanations, people give up on them quite readily. And the sense of proportion is skewed: in the case of James Hydrick for example (in the OP) which is more likely, before he was disproven, which was more likely, that all of physics is wrong or that James was the one person in the world who had developed a talent for producing a strong gust of air without any visible signs? Both scenarios would be remarkable. But notice that embracing the former, while dismissing the latter as implausible, is a very tempting and common reaction, but it is also a tremendous failure of proportion. The latter was a much, much better hypothesis even before a definitive test was done.

 

[England my lionheart]

Derek Acorah,this Guy was a legend during his time in Most Haunted a TV program but i think this is even funnier.Television - Interview - Derek Acorah ('Michael Jackson: The Live Séance') - Digital Spy
This is funny aswell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo7LGHMdSuM and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vrQgrswIpw which is a sceance to contact Michael Jackson

 

[Nepenthe]

Does anyone know what causes the Hindu statues to drink milk? I've always been intrigued by that.
People say it's porous stone, but that doesn't make sense to me as they're always being offered milk and stuff.

We discussed it briefly in this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/85971-miracle-please-provide-example.html
Specifically here in these posts:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1778634-post36.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1778859-post38.html

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Fascinating reading, Nepenthe! Thanks for the links. Absolutely fascinating. These phenomena ARE real, and they are remarkable, they are just social and psychological phenomena instead of miraculous.

It really is a fun exercise to read the following, and then imagine how many cases like this could have happened in ancient history, when all communications were by word of mouth, before science, etc. I don't mean statues drinking milk, I mean the spread of a mass illusion. There's no way to be sure, but it's fun to speculate which parts of the modern religious traditions started out as little epidemics like this one:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Never before in history has a simultaneous miracle occurred on such a global scale. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Television stations (among them CNN and BBC), radio and newspapers (among them Washington post, New York Times, The Guardian and Daily Express) eagerly covered this unique phenomenon, and even sceptical journalists held their milk-filled spoons to the statues of gods - and watched as the milk disappeared.

[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]It all began on September 21st when an otherwise ordinary man in New Delhi dreamt that Lord Ganesha, the elephant-headed God of Wisdom, craved a little milk. Upon awakening, he rushed in the dark before dawn to the nearest temple, where a skeptical priest allowed him to proffer a spoonful of milk to the small stone image. Both watched in astonishment as it disappeared, magically consumed by the God.
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]What followed is unprecedented in modern Hindu history. Within hours news had spread like a brush fire across India that Ganesha was accepting milk offerings. Tens of millions of people of all ages flocked to the nation's temples. The unworldly happening brought worldly New Delhi to a standstill, and its vast stocks of milk - more than a million liters - sold out within hours. Just as suddenly as it started in India, it stopped in just 24 hours. [/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif]August 20/21, 2006:
[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The miracle occured again on 20/21 August 2006 in almost exactly the same fashion, all though initial reports seem to indicate that it occured only with statues of Ganesh, Shiva, and Durga. The [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]first reported occurance[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] was on the evening of the 20th in the city of Bareilly in Uttar Pradesh, from where it spread throughout India like wildfire. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Browse Google News[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1].[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]from The Hindu Milk Miracle Video - Ganesh Drinking Milk - best documented paranormal phenomenon of modern times.
[/SIZE][/FONT]​

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well obviously the best examples of fraud and illusion would be found in the DIR of basically every religion on this forum, the point of this thread is just to stick to proven examples that everyone will accept.

This is precisely the problem. You've set the definition far to wide.

It's so indefinite that you can't precisely define it. Not a very good example of thinking critically.

 

[Smoke]

The important thing to remember here is that these are ordinary people "falling" for it (so to speak). They're not necessarily faking it. For many people it probably is a "real" experience, it's just that psychology and suggestion are the hidden forces making them fall, not devils leaving their bodies.

I have had very weird experiences in charismatic meetings. Not miraculous experiences, but uncanny ones. Things I can't explain. Maybe if I knew more about psychology I'd understand better; I don't know. But I have never been "slain in the Spirit," and I have had preachers shove me really hard in the head. On several occasions I had to take a couple steps back to keep my balance. They were literally trying to push me over. If I had been more susceptible, I can easily see how I might have been caught up in the moment, just let myself fall, and convinced myself it was a spiritual experience. Religious enthusiasm and ecstatic experiences can be very seductive; I can see how one could easily be sucked in. Of course in those days -- I was a teenager at the time -- I was wrapped very tight and keeping a very tight lid on my sexuality, so I couldn't afford the luxury of letting myself be swept away; The Gayness was waiting to break out the minute I lost control, and I wasn't about to let that happen. I think for a lot of people, ecstatic religion is a way of dealing with or sublimating unresolved sexual desire, but mine was just too close to the surface.

 

[Nepenthe]

I have had very weird experiences in charismatic meetings. Not miraculous experiences, but uncanny ones. Things I can't explain. Maybe if I knew more about psychology I'd understand better; I don't know. But I have never been "slain in the Spirit," and I have had preachers shove me really hard in the head. On several occasions I had to take a couple steps back to keep my balance. They were literally trying to push me over. If I had been more susceptible, I can easily see how I might have been caught up in the moment, just let myself fall, and convinced myself it was a spiritual experience. Religious enthusiasm and ecstatic experiences can be very seductive; I can see how one could easily be sucked in. Of course in those days -- I was a teenager at the time -- I was wrapped very tight and keeping a very tight lid on my sexuality, so I couldn't afford the luxury of letting myself be swept away; The Gayness was waiting to break out the minute I lost control, and I wasn't about to let that happen. I think for a lot of people, ecstatic religion is a way of dealing with or sublimating unresolved sexual desire, but mine was just too close to the surface.

I am absolutely fascinated by folks who have experienced Charismatic meetings in all their glory. But to be able to look back at it as a gay non-theist is like winning the lottery twice in a row. Please let me know if you ever publish your memoirs.

Faith based healings remind me of the psychic surgery craze of the 70s and 80s. I was fascinated by it as a kid. It was a perfect storm of deliberate deception, delusion, and desperation. Con artists preying on people who had cancer, many of them terminal, and the victims were all too willing to believe the con when they had little time left anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBvdcy_Mi34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roCounjrXf8

 

[Sunstone]

The raw patterns of the frauds laid out in the book Urban Legends seem to repeat themselves throughout history, in every culture and society.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

This is precisely the problem. You've set the definition far to wide.

It's so indefinite that you can't precisely define it. Not a very good example of thinking critically.

I apologize if I'm being dense, but I don't understand your concern. I haven't defined anything. The thread title is "Concrete examples of 'miraculous' frauds, illusions, and mass delusions" to which I've added, "examples that everyone accepts". You first said these "aren't good examples", now it's no longer the examples but the definition of something which is "precisely the problem". What problem? I'm listening.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I apologize if I'm being dense, but I don't understand your concern. I haven't defined anything. The thread title is "Concrete examples of 'miraculous' frauds, illusions, and mass delusions" to which I've added, "examples that everyone accepts". You first said these "aren't good examples", now it's no longer the examples but the definition of something which is "precisely the problem". What problem? I'm listening.

The problem is that you need to define what a "mass delusion" is before you can offer examples of good "mass delusions" that have been proven wrong.

Your assumption that most religions in the DIR are "mass delusions" is undefined and meaningless, and therefore the connection to the other undefined "mass delusions" proven wrong is unsubstantiated.

A better example of a mass delusion would be Nazi propaganda that convinced folks that the best thing for Europe was the extermination of Jews, while at the same time they hid concentration camps in plain sight. That's mass delusion.

Or perhaps the UFO phenomena.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The problem is that you need to define what a "mass delusion" is before you can offer examples of good "mass delusions" that have been proven wrong.

Your assumption that most religions in the DIR are "mass delusions" is undefined and meaningless, and therefore the connection to the other undefined "mass delusions" proven wrong is unsubstantiated.

This thread isn't just about mass delusions -- see the thread title. Secondly, I think the ordinary, plain meaning of words is sufficient for the purposes of this thread. Nevertheless, here are some useful dictionary entries for those whose grasp of English is not firm enough to understand that Peter Popoff was a "fraud" and James Hydrick's mind tricks an "illusion":

concrete: constituting an actual thing or instance; real: "a concrete proof of his sincerity".

example: an instance serving for illustration

mass: pertaining to, involving, or affecting a large number of people

delusion: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact

illusion: the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension

fraud: any deception, trickery, or humbug
​

A better example of a mass delusion would be Nazi propaganda that convinced folks that the best thing for Europe was the extermination of Jews, while at the same time they hid concentration camps in plain sight. That's mass delusion.

No that's a bad example, because you never defined "mass delusion" (or "Europe" for that matter). The definition you have not provided has been "set...far to wide", so wide that it is "indefinite and you can't precisely define it". Therefore, if we employ "critical thinking" we cannot accept the statement that Nazi propaganda was mass delusion.

In all seriousness: sure, add it to the list. To me, the way you've formulated it so far isn't as concrete as other examples, like James Hydrick confessing he wanted to "see how stupid America is"; after all what is "best for Europe" is subjective and a Nazi may well believe the extermination camps were "what's best for Europe". A better example might be any German people who were shocked by the *existence of the camps* after the war. A concrete example could be personal letters from Hitler to his closest advisers which show that he was consciously lying to and misdirecting the masses in public speeches.

Or perhaps the UFO phenomena.

Absolutely, hopefully someone will post some "concrete examples" of this.

 

[Nepenthe]

Falling squarely in the "fraud" and "Illusion" categories is Project Alpha. Long story short James Randi trained two young mentalists (that's magician or psychic entertainer to the Irish and U.K. dwellers. ) named Banachek and Mike Edwards to pose as psychics and allow themselves to be tested by the McDonnell Laboratory for Psychical Research. Ethical or not the experiment did expose just how shoddy paranormal research methods were.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1S5CRcqJQo

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Nevertheless, here are some useful dictionary entries for those whose grasp of English is not firm enough

Dictionary entries are useless in the absence of critical thought.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Dictionary entries are useless in the absence of critical thought.

Compare this to:

It's so indefinite that you can't precisely define it. Not a very good example of thinking critically.

So failure to define something means you are not "thinking critically". And if you're not thinking critically, it's "useless" to define something. Quite a conundrum. You may have a legitimate criticism, but so far all I've seen are a few vague, terse sentences which lead to an unconstructive merry-go-round.

Let's see a show of hands: who else here cannot figure out what is meant when it is said the Hindu milk miracle was an example of "fraud, illusion, or mass delusion"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Quite a conundrum.

Only for a person unable to think.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Compare this to:
So failure to define something means you are not "thinking critically". And if you're not thinking critically, it's "useless" to define something. Quite a conundrum.

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles
Well obviously the best examples of fraud and illusion would be found in the DIR of basically every religion on this forum, the point of this thread is just to stick to proven examples that everyone will accept.

Mindlessly fleeing to the dictionary does not substantiate contact between your examples.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Angellous I apologize for being "unable to think" critically enough to unpack and translate your one-liners. I honestly, sincerely do not yet understand what you are trying to say and I feel that your responses are not clear or specific.

Are you saying it was "unsubstantiated" of me to group Christianity, Islam, etc. in with the other examples on this thread?

 

[Zenaphobe]

Someone I have found fascinating in connection to illusions and the power of suggestion and confirmation bias is Derren Brown.

He provides good examples of how we can fall for tricks and be led to accept things that are not based on reality.

I can't post links yet, but one great example is his "Messiah" program which can be found on Youtube.

 

[Student of X]

I.m.o. many of our religious friends on RF do not appreciate how common frauds, illusions, and mass delusions are and how easy it is to be fooled or mistaken. Point those friends to this thread. Post articles and videos here of cases that should make everyone think twice before accepting the miraculous or paranormal at face value.

To start, the case of James Hydrick, who moves objects with his mind. His powers fail him when he tries to pass James Randi's test, however:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc

More on Hydrick, how he made punching bags and other objects appear to move on their own, and Hydrick's confession/explanation for why he did it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1-byfq4lM&feature=related

You might enjoy reading The Trickster and the Paranormal by George Hanson.